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  1. #222
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hara^kazuko
    Any chance of LCW getting it?
    sure, it's possible for LCW or anyone else to get the 2006 IBF POTY... but definitely not Taufik..

  2. #223
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Oops, wrong person..

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    kurama, thanks for providing those rules for us..(
    sorry dropper, that post was meant in reply to your post, not kurama's..

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    ctjcad,

    I agree with your feelings. But the bottom line is that when we look at an alleged violation of rules we must look at it objectively, not emotionally.

    Who pays for the players is a matter to be dealt by the people who pays for the player. For example the contract or formally announced sponsors of TH most probably have some clauses in their contracts that require TH and all of their sponsored players to follow some elite player code of conduct, or they may not. Who knows a particular sponsor wouldn't even care what was done by a player is good or bad (although I very much doubt it). It is truly between the player and the sponsor.

    And I agree with you, when it comes to following the IBF Laws of Badminton and Player's Code of Conduct those must be followed without regard to who the offending party is. As far as issues related to code of conduct violations are concerned that will have to be dealt with utmost care, providing all the opportunity for TH to defend his actions in a hearing in front of a non-advocate panel.

    However, there is no room for that kind of activity when the player violates the clearly stated IBF Laws of Badminton that are in the statutes. In my view of things that ttranspired, TH should have been given a red card and a black card. May be the first ever black card given in badminton. For example, in soccer when you get a red card you are out of the match, and must leave the premises immediately, and is not allowed to play in the next match of the team either. That is the law and it is followed by the soccer referees all the time.

    I think the most important thing is to keep the emotions out of it when the determination of sanctions are made by the panel of Disciplinary Committee.

    Of course, as spectators and outsiders who pay to watch the athletes perform we can have our own opinions of what TH did was right or wrong and what must be done about it. But, it is upto TH to care or not to care about what spectators think and support.

    Also, don't be so sure about what skeletons that are in the other athletes closets, like TG, although I very much doubt TG would have ever done what TH did. In one way I admire TH's courage in what he did; it is not an easy thing to do what he did. And, he will have to stand the consequences. On the other hand I think what he did was very bad for the sport and it sets a bad example to many younger players who follow elite players.

  4. #225
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropper
    ctjcad,

    I agree with your feelings. But the bottom line is that when we look at an alleged violation of rules we must look at it objectively, not emotionally.
    i understand, at least i myself am not looking at it "emotionally"..
    Who pays for the players is a matter to be dealt by the people who pays for the player. For example the contract or formally announced sponsors of TH most probably have some clauses in their contracts that require TH and all of their sponsored players to follow some elite player code of conduct, or they may not. Who knows a particular sponsor wouldn't even care what was done by a player is good or bad (although I very much doubt it). It is truly between the player and the sponsor.
    i understand..my point was, which you've already noted, those players are actually playing with someone's money(be it public or private) and they basically "represent" those individuals..
    And I agree with you, when it comes to following the IBF Laws of Badminton and Player's Code of Conduct those must be followed without regard to who the offending party is. As far as issues related to code of conduct violations are concerned that will have to be dealt with utmost care, providing all the opportunity for TH to defend his actions in a hearing in front of a non-advocate panel.
    i understand...thing is, i or we don't know whether this incident will be dealt with PBSI or IBF..?!?!....i, myself, won't really care, just want to see "some disciplinary actions" done..
    However, there is no room for that kind of activity when the player violates the clearly stated IBF Laws of Badminton that are in the statutes. In my view of things that ttranspired, TH should have been given a red card and a black card. May be the first ever black card given in badminton. For example, in soccer when you get a red card you are out of the match, and must leave the premises immediately, and is not allowed to play in the next match of the team either. That is the law and it is followed by the soccer referees all the time.
    i understand...i've mentioned abt the idea of discipling Taufik for the rest of the season or even beyond in one of my other post..
    I think the most important thing is to keep the emotions out of it when the determination of sanctions are made by the panel of Disciplinary Committee.
    if they go that far, i'm sure they(IBF official) will not be "emotional"..
    Of course, as spectators and outsiders who pay to watch the athletes perform we can have our own opinions of what TH did was right or wrong and what must be done about it. But, it is upto TH to care or not to care about what spectators think and support.
    agree, just like you and me and some of us in here have posted & mentioned numerous times..
    Also, don't be so sure about what skeletons that are in the other athletes closets, like TG, although I very much doubt TG would have ever done what TH did. In one way I admire TH's courage in what he did; it is not an easy thing to do what he did. And, he will have to stand the consequences. On the other hand I think what he did was very bad for the sport and it sets a bad example to many younger players who follow elite players.
    hmm, on the statement i've highlighted in bold, i won't comment...All i know is from past experiences and incidents of those 2 players..And for one Taufik, the recent incident wasn't the first nor second time..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-02-2006 at 03:27 PM.

  5. #226
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    IMO, most players don't cheat, they abuse the system within the rules for their own advantage. However refs and judges cheat!!!! Also some are incapable to judge and others are just lousy refs. TH always have showed great sportsmanship for this sport. Also these players travel from far and they're professional players. They deserve a fair game and when you see injustice, whereas many players have complained for the same case, HK OPEN should reconsider about their crew members.

  6. #227
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Just want to reply on this..

    Quote Originally Posted by ^Tayo^
    IMO, most players don't cheat, they abuse the system within the rules for their own advantage. However refs and judges cheat!!!! Also some are incapable to judge and others are just lousy refs. TH always have showed great sportsmanship for this sport. Also these players travel from far and they're professional players. They deserve a fair game and when you see injustice, whereas many players have complained for the same case, HK OPEN should reconsider about their crew members.
    I understand all your comments above, but bolting out after a very questionable call("on the line" call, which i'm sure if you're in the linejudge's shoe will also feel a bit tough), early in the game with much more to be played is excusable??.. Sure his pent-up "anger" could be a result of the previous week's KO, which he endured a similar thing also.
    That's the main point of most of the posters who are not happy with Taufik's behavior...If he had continued on after that call, then most of us wouldn't have so much displeasure abt his behavior..
    If the call was "completely wrong", repeated and obviously incorrect (like in KJonassen vs. LD match, which they replaced the linejudge), then we can have some lee-way if the player(s) wants to boycott. But even in KJ vs. LD's case, KJ decided to keep playing rather than bolting out unlike Taufik..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-02-2006 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by ^Tayo^
    IMO, most players don't cheat, they abuse the system within the rules for their own advantage. However refs and judges cheat!!!! Also some are incapable to judge and others are just lousy refs. TH always have showed great sportsmanship for this sport. Also these players travel from far and they're professional players. They deserve a fair game and when you see injustice, whereas many players have complained for the same case, HK OPEN should reconsider about their crew members.
    I agree with you that the players deserve fair calls by the judges. Unfortunately for the players, from what I know when a player is wronged by judges there is no recourse for the athlete. He/She has to swallow it and go with the flow. This really is not fair. There must be a way to review conduct of judges based on player grievances. IBF must come up with a system to address grievances by players, coaches, umpires etc. Then only players like TH has other means to go about having their grievances heard, without being forced to do something like what he did.

    But, that should be addressed by the players and member countries at the IBF board level. TH is a high profile player and he should be able to lead an effort to force the issue with the IBF to come up with a system to address players' concerns. I believe other top athletes will also support such a cause.

    I have seen TH play a couple of times and each time he impressed me very much with his superior skills and also conduct during the match. So I don't know what happened to him in these couple of instances that made him snap. It is entirely possible he strongly believes that there is a bias against him; I can only guess...
    Last edited by dropper; 09-02-2006 at 06:05 PM.

  8. #229
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by dropper
    There must be a way to review conduct of judges based on player grievances. IBF must come up with a system to address grievances by players, coaches, umpires etc. Then only players like TH has other means to go about having their grievances heard, without being forced to do something like what he did.

    But, that should be addressed by the players and member countries at the IBF board level. TH is a high profile player and he should be able to lead an effort to force the issue with the IBF to come up with a system to address players' concerns. I believe other top athletes will also support such a cause.
    dropper, this is a very interesting idea... i just wonder if they(players) themselves have ever consider forming somekind of a union, in cases like these..Just like most if not all of the major sports league here in the U.S....I don't know if professional tennis have their own players union or not??..

  9. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropper
    4.6 Trying to influence line judges
    Trying to influence the decision of line judges by arm, hand, or racket gestures, or orally.
    .
    just my 2cents
    i think he did not break this rule.
    I think this rule means you try to tell the line judge it's out or in BEFORE
    the judge has his/her own opion. Thus the judge will make bad call.
    But after the judge has made a call and you doubt it , it's protest.

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    Hi Kemana,
    I disagree with your premise.
    The protest or the appeal must be made to the umpire not to the line judge. When a line judge is shown with gestures that the call must be changed, that he made the wrong call, that is attempting to influence the line judge, in my opinion, not only for this time but for future calls also. There is no mention that it has to be done before the call, although that is the more common violation - try to influence the LJ before the call as you said; it could be after the call also to get the line judge to change his call. A line judge can make a change to his call; in addition the umpire can over rule a line judge's call.
    Otherwise what was TH trying to do, harrass the line judge? That is also looked upon as a misconduct in the IBF Palyer's Code of Conduct.
    4.1 Inappropriate conduct
    Duiring any match or any time of an IBF sanctioned event, not conducting oneself in an honorable and sportsmanlike manner.

    If TH just shook his head to indicate he doesn't agree with the call or even just said that it was "out", that usually should have been OK I think, but continue to gesture to the line judge with various ways was inappropriate. TH should have taken it up with the umpire, and then with the referee.
    Last edited by dropper; 09-02-2006 at 06:59 PM.

  11. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropper
    Hi Kemana,
    I disagree with your premise.
    The protest or the appeal must be made to the umpire not to the line judge. When a line judge is shown with gestures that the call must be changed, that he made the wrong call, that is attempting to influence the line judge, in my opinion, not only for this time but for future calls also. There is no mention that it has to be done before the call, although that is the more common violation - try to influence the LJ before the call as you said; it could be after the call also to get the line judge to change his call. A line judge can make a change to his call; in addition the umpire can over rule a line judge's call.
    Otherwise what was TH trying to do, harrass the line judge? That is also looked upon as a misconduct in the IBF Palyer's Code of Conduct.
    4.1 Inappropriate conduct
    Duiring any match or any time of an IBF sanctioned event, not conducting oneself in an honorable and sportsmanlike manner.

    If TH just shook his head to indicate he doesn't agree with the call or even just said that it was "out", that usually should have been OK I think, but continue to gesture to the line judge with various ways was inappropriate. TH should have taken it up with the umpire, and then with the referee.
    well, thank you for your correction.

  12. #233
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    Angry taufik

    Ive been following the whole "Taufik" drama and i have never seen such an arrogant player. He always creates a circus on the court. He hates to lose. Losing is inevitable, so why is he playing badminton? He has no class and is not sportsmanlike at all. He thinks everyone is wrong but himself. Why doesn't he grow up? He should go back to his kampung and use black magic. Maybe that will help him. IBF should not tolerate his bad behaviour. They should just kick him out. He spoils the fun of the game and casts a dark shadow over the sport.

  13. #234
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    Don't be so angry...He doesn't worth us to be angry with him...There are still many players with good attitude and sportmanship like LCW,PG and...They are only caunted true hero and good players.... ask for taufik...juz forget it...

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    LET HIM GO...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad

    hmm, on the statement i've highlighted in bold, i won't comment...All i know is from past experiences and incidents of those 2 players..And for one Taufik, the recent incident wasn't the first nor second time..
    I have heard allegations of unsportsmanlike conduct that is detrimental to the sport by some of the top athletes, from as far back as 1970's. Pg 21 of 26 in the following article illustrates one of these allegation on Rudy Hartono's All England win over compatriot Liem Swie King in 1976, that gave a record eight All England titles to Rudy. A friend of mine who was at that All England in 1976 told me he agrees with the author.
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23739&d=1156616169

    The article states that, "There were those who argued that Rudy Hartono's victory had been set up; that in fact Liem Swie King should have won, given his performance in earlier games and the fact that Rudy was suffering from an injured foot."

    Anyway, what I was alluding to as "skeletons that are in the other athletes closets" are things that we never know as to be the truth, and that these players are sometimes under a lot of pressure politically and economically, they do things that may not be ethically correct and results in conduct that is unfair and unsportsmanlike. So I personally would not refer to any one athlete as clean or not so clean unless we are know for sure.
    Last edited by dropper; 09-04-2006 at 04:14 PM.

  16. #237
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default A bit off topic..

    Quote Originally Posted by dropper
    Anyway, what I was alluding to as "skeletons that are in the other athletes closets" are things that we never know as to be the truth, and that these players are sometimes under a lot of pressure politically and economically, they do things that may not be ethically correct and results in conduct that is unfair and unsportsmanlike. So I personally would not refer to any one athlete as clean or not so clean unless we are know for sure.
    Hmm, i understand. Re your comment which i've highlighted above, no, i'm not putting "judgment" on anyone, be it good or bad. Every person has their own good and bad, no one is perfect. I'm just seeing and putting forth my opinion on facts(that actually happened and/or reported) of those players, in relation to the world of sport(badminton) they've been playing...
    Re your example of Rudy and LSK alleged story, well, most people probably not know abt it. Actually there is/are recent "significant" news that is similar to that which happened ,if i'm not mistaken, abt 2-3 yrs. ago. I'm sure you or most of the people here know.
    The player example i took and mentioned had been, if many people can call it, on an "exemplary" career. And that is based on factual infos/reports/news thruout the career, at least from what i've heard/seen. I don't think it's anything wrong with that is it??..If other people heard/seen something else that i or we don't know, then i won't know and not interested to inquire abt..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-04-2006 at 05:42 PM.

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    man... i thought i was a badminton fanatic... until i read this thread kekekekee

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