A look back on the 21 point rally system after WC06

**2NDround** · 10-01-2006, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by taneepak

Under the NSS every point is critical. This is why close line calls are not only challenged by the aggrieved players, the players who are awarded the points also complain to the umpire about the behaviour of the aggrieved players for grand standing, time-wasting, and disruption to their winning streak, etc, etc. Under the OSS close line calls were also questioned but without the passion and fight we find in the NSS. OSS bred better manners, NSS is a "fight to the death" in which manners have no place. Badminton under the NSS has become less gentlemanly but more competitive in more ways than we thought.

Maybe I am of the old school. I choose gentleman over ruffian anytime

**franxon** · 10-01-2006, 09:05 AM

in tennis before the eagle eye system was employed, most players seldom challenged the judge like mad even at game, set or match points in multi-million-dollar major events. badminton could be an even more gentleman game, like snooker and golf. play with grace, win or lose with grace. any game can deteriorate to be as nasty as NBA or NFL. fun to watch too. both sides are equipped with the freedom of playing all kinds dirty tricks allowed by rules in the game. and if it's too dirty to be protected by the rules, you get punished. so it's fine still and fair still.

**hollywood_t** · 10-01-2006, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by samkool

that's a good idea.

i propose extending the winning score to 30, for a 3x30 rally scoring format, with a cap of 35. it gives the better player an opportunity for a comeback, without allowing the game to theoretically last forever.

I think ur own to something here samkool. Vball I think is 25 pts now right? That might just be sweet spot. The extra 4 pts vs 21 pt might just be threshold that brings fitness into play & gives the better player the edge he deserves upsets be damned ...

For marketing purposes the 21 pt system ensures explicit changes in the scoreline the audience can follow vs. the old 15 pts where the service could be traded back & forth w/ no change in score until 1 player wins 2 rallies in a row.

I prefer the 15 pt system but can accept some changes need to be made to increase the appeal of the game.

But to support this... it's time to get serious about accurate and fair line calls and officiating. W/ 21 pt a wrong line call or officiating error does twice the dammage. Instead of being awarded a point ur opponent gets one total impact is 2 points difference!

Better get out the instant replay folks.

Derek

**kemana** · 10-01-2006, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by franxon

Rally point system has its merits, as been said enough. i'm not against it. however, what i'm not sure is if it has to be 21x3. 21x5 looks like a better solution.

if you study the after-match statistics, you might be surprised like me by the fact that in many matches the winner and the loser are only seperated by less than 5 total rallies won. the difference was only 1 rally/point in a match i watched! games like this are too tight to tell. why isn't there in the world a champion for 10 m short running? because it's impossible to tell who's the best short runner in 10 meters and you gotta let them run 100m!

the current 21x3 NSS sometimes looks like a 10 meter short running.

Good point!Totally agree!

**samkool** · 10-01-2006, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by hollywood_t

I think ur own to something here samkool. Vball I think is 25 pts now right?

it's 25~30 cap for high school, 30~35 cap for college and fivb grad prix. best out of 5, however, if a 5th game is needed, it goes to only 15 in high school & college. i'm not sure whether the 5th game in fivb grand prix is to 15 or 30. beach volleyball uses rally scoring as well.

i use the beach volleyball comparison due to the more individual nature of the sport, as opposed to a 6-person team.

i have yet to see the better team lose due to the rally scoring system.

Originally Posted by hollywood_t

That might just be sweet spot. The extra 4 pts vs 21 pt might just be threshold that brings fitness into play & gives the better player the edge he deserves upsets be damned ...

the more i think about it, the more i'd agree with the 25 pt game. fortunately i can experiment on my high school team LOL

Originally Posted by hollywood_t

But to support this... it's time to get serious about accurate and fair line calls and officiating. W/ 21 pt a wrong line call or officiating error does twice the damage. Instead of being awarded a point ur opponent gets one total impact is 2 points difference!

stop using volunteers. implement a linesman association like other sports, where they are trained, paid, and randomly drawn for matches.

**indra** · 10-01-2006, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by chikkubhai

World Championships 2006 ended on a bitter note for me .... and the reason Taufik Hidayat, Lee Hyun Il and Peter Gade were all out so badly. They appeared different, I mean the games after watching each game again and again I always wondered what if it were were the old conventional 15 points system. Even when I play back in my club I see that the games complete so quickly and a small mistake will never give you an other chance.. after all to err is human, then why not give him a chance. To me Lee Hyun Il for example lost just because of this pointing system, with bad calls and line judgements messing you up, many unforced errors will just kick you out of the game.

Anyways I wanted to know if there are people like me who don't like this new system and if we can sign in a petition or let the IBF know about it.... after all its the badminton fans who keep watching the games and continue to keep badminton in the limelight...

The 21 system is ABSOLUTELY "NOT INTERESTING"
The 21 system is too quick
while Players have not sweated yet, the game is over
The bottom line is CHANGE it to the 15 score system.....

**Aozora** · 10-02-2006, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by indra

The 21 system is ABSOLUTELY "NOT INTERESTING"
The 21 system is too quick
while Players have not sweated yet, the game is over
The bottom line is CHANGE it to the 15 score system.....

Well, I like the 15 point system, but I think it should still be open to discussion on how to improve it...it's just...how much input did the players have on this before IBF decided in their most wise decision to go f' around with the game? (If there actually was a lot of input before the decision, excuse me then.)

Originally Posted by samkool

stop using volunteers. implement a linesman association like other sports, where they are trained, paid, and randomly drawn for matches.

Oh how I'd love to get paid to watch badminton...

**taneepak** · 10-02-2006, 01:18 AM

FYI, the NSS was given a one year trial period before it was officially adopted this May, 2006, at the same time the 2006 Thomas Cup Challenge Round was played in Japan. It was adopted with 100% of the votes. So, if you must blame some one, go after your own national badminton association officials who voted for the new system. All the votes from Canada, USA, Japan, Denmark, England, etc., etc. voted for the NSS. The best way to revert back to the old system is to go after your own officials and curse them for selling you out.

**samkool** · 10-02-2006, 03:21 AM

how about 5x21 for men, and 3x21 for women, like tennis?

make mixed 3x25.

**chikkubhai** · 10-02-2006, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by franxon

Rally point system has its merits, as been said enough. i'm not against it. however, what i'm not sure is if it has to be 21x3. 21x5 looks like a better solution.
if you study the after-match statistics, you might be surprised like me by the fact that in many matches the winner and the loser are only seperated by less than 5 total rallies won. the difference was only 1 rally/point in a match i watched! games like this are too tight to tell. why isn't there in the world a champion for 10 m short running? because it's impossible to tell who's the best short runner in 10 meters and you gotta let them run 100m!
the current 21x3 NSS sometimes looks like a 10 meter short running.

I agree with Franxon and his good comment on the number of rallies...

I hope IBF realizes this good point..

Originally Posted by taneepak

, the NSS was given a one year trial period before it was officially adopted this May, 2006, at the same time the 2006 Thomas Cup Challenge Round was played in Japan. It was adopted with 100% of the votes. So, if you must blame some one, go after your own national badminton association officials who voted for the new system. All the votes from Canada, USA, Japan, Denmark, England, etc., etc. voted for the NSS. The best way to revert back to the old system is to go after your own officials and curse them for selling you out.

Thanks Taneepak for your optimistic idea of how we can change the system

... You atleast suggested a way ie., request/suggest or make IBF hear our woes, atleast the players should realize this and request their country boards to change their minds asap for the sake of badminton. They cant make changes and expect other countries to vote against their ideas, probably the countries may not wanted to stand out on voting??

Badminton is the fastest raquet sport and needs you warmed up... In comparison it seems that unlike volleyball where you have 6 people playing on each side with best of 3 or 5 sets and in TableTennis you have 5x21 it absolutely makes sense to have atleast 5x21 for mens... This is one good suggestion, way better than the current scenario where it adds way too much pressure especially at the end,
BUT badminton actually stands out with the 15 points system where the players have a chance to come back if they make a mistake.

We have alllllll clearly witnessed how it changed from a fun sport to an agressive sport in WC06. I hope whatever happens happens for the best of badminton

**weekey** · 10-02-2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by twobeer

My stance on 21 rally scoring hasn´t changed.

In essence it shortens the games and games where players are closely match it is VERY common to go to 22,23,24,25 etc.. to win a game (in many cases even in the decider).

This causes excitment for the crowd, which is posivite (so from a marketing perspective to the non-badminton community I have to admit it have some advantages).

But as the game is shortened and points are more important, it will also make controversial line-calls, serve-judging, net-rolls etc. become a much much bigger factor than with the 3x15 scoring. So to me the 21x3 system is inferior to separate evenly matched players (to really find out which one is the best), and the "luck" factor comes more into play..

With the old system.. Winning at least two rallies in sequence to get a point, minimized the effect of a bad line-call, a lucky-shot, a service-fault in doubt etc so errors or flukes felt less decisive..

/Twobeer

I agree. Take the match between taufik and chen hong as an example, they went to 19 all in the decider and chen hong won 21-19 in the end. The game was very very tight. but in terms of quality, I think the game was very poor. Both players didnt play their best and not much skills were showed. moreover, every set finished too quickly. With this 21 points system, it is obvious that badminton is not as physically competitive as before. So, if there is a petition for the old 15 system, i will definitely sign it.

**Aozora** · 10-02-2006, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by taneepak

FYI, the NSS was given a one year trial period before it was officially adopted this May, 2006, at the same time the 2006 Thomas Cup Challenge Round was played in Japan. It was adopted with 100% of the votes. So, if you must blame some one, go after your own national badminton association officials who voted for the new system. All the votes from Canada, USA, Japan, Denmark, England, etc., etc. voted for the NSS. The best way to revert back to the old system is to go after your own officials and curse them for selling you out.

So um...where do I start chewing them out? Sigh...I just started badminton last year so I've been in my own little world trying to get better. I heard about high schools accepting rally point system for volleyball, so I might've just mixed everything I heard into v-ball as well =P Thx for the info tho.

Btw, is there already a petition that we can sign? And if not, should I bother to make one? (Like, a layout similar to a guestbook?) I mean, an online petition probably won't gain too much attention from IBF unless you get like...thousands of signatures...

**taneepak** · 10-02-2006, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Aozora

So um...where do I start chewing them out? Sigh...I just started badminton last year so I've been in my own little world trying to get better. I heard about high schools accepting rally point system for volleyball, so I might've just mixed everything I heard into v-ball as well =P Thx for the info tho.

Btw, is there already a petition that we can sign? And if not, should I bother to make one? (Like, a layout similar to a guestbook?) I mean, an online petition probably won't gain too much attention from IBF unless you get like...thousands of signatures...

Badminton Canada is the badminton authority in Canada. Players in Canada should contact Badminton Canada for any proposed changes to the rules or laws. The current 21 rally point system can be replaced on meeting any one of the following conditions :
1. That 75% of total votes at a special general meeting approves the change. Any such approved change can only be effective from May, 2011.
2. That 100% of total votes at a special general meeting approves the change. In this case the change can be effective immediately.

The right way to do this is for each badminton club in Canada affiliated to Badminton Canada to put in writing in a letter to Badminton Canada. With all the inputs from its affiliated clubs, Badminton Canada should then take a position reflecting the wishes of the majority of the clubs. Badminton Canada should then vote the way the clubs want it to vote. This should be the way.

**Aozora** · 10-02-2006, 09:59 PM

Hmm...I wish I could do something, but since I'm not in any affiliated badminton clubs... T_T I shall hope for the best then... =) thx taneepak, useful information =D

**Dmitry** · 10-03-2006, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by taneepak

FYI, the NSS was given a one year trial period before it was officially adopted this May, 2006, at the same time the 2006 Thomas Cup Challenge Round was played in Japan. It was adopted with 100% of the votes. So, if you must blame some one, go after your own national badminton association officials who voted for the new system. All the votes from Canada, USA, Japan, Denmark, England, etc., etc. voted for the NSS. The best way to revert back to the old system is to go after your own officials and curse them for selling you out.

Yes, it is very revealing symptom, "adopted with 100% of the votes". Actually it means that all these votes are for decoration only, the decision has been taken before (by whom?) and all these meetings can do nothing but "adopt with 100% of the votes". The same story with IBF -> BWF transition... It reminds me something... Back to the USSR?..

The problem is even wider than the NSS itself. The problem is: how the IBF (or BWF) works, what is their mechanism of making decisions, who and how generates all these ideas which then are "adopted with 100% of the votes". I can agree that some of the ideas are maybe not bad, or even good (NSS is one of the worst, IMHO), but the way how they are invented, discussed and promoted is not good - it is simply wilful and not professional.

**dropper** · 10-03-2006, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by taneepak

FYI, the NSS was given a one year trial period before it was officially adopted this May, 2006, at the same time the 2006 Thomas Cup Challenge Round was played in Japan. It was adopted with 100% of the votes. So, if you must blame some one, go after your own national badminton association officials who voted for the new system. All the votes from Canada, USA, Japan, Denmark, England, etc., etc. voted for the NSS. The best way to revert back to the old system is to go after your own officials and curse them for selling you out.

You must be kidding! Have you ever known or seen what happens to anybody who dissents? You can talk to some of the elite USA players, officers of the USAB, and court officials to find out what happened to them when they held a different opinion than the USAB.

IMO these are very autocratic and very badly managed organizations. If one tries to bring up a different opinion or idea than the powers of these organizations, you better be ready to forget about being part of any badminton activity in the future; or they will make it "hell" for you to continue playing or being involved. I have seen too many examples.

Why do you think all these votes are 100% to one side? How often do you see in a true democratic society having 100% voting to one opinion, and zero votes for dissenting opinions? After the experimantation period was over, did the IBF take a vote on the 5x7 system? I doubt it. Was anybody allowed to propose the 5x7 to be voted on? I doubt it.

**2NDround** · 10-03-2006, 07:19 AM

Having gone through all the posts, I think the majority of us agreed that the NSS system is not good for the game. However I think most of us also agreed that NSS may still be acceptable if the objectives of increase TV coverage, and increase sponsorships is achieved. Have anyone any data to indicates that TV coverage and sponsorship is on the increase?