Questions about the...technique!

[Tianjin]

I have several questions concerning details of some basic techniques. I have searched through alot of threads although I must say sometimes the advices contradict and it is quite hard to sort everything out.

Here are my questions

Concerning flick:

Yes I was the one who started the flick thread. I have developped my own short serve and flick after several sessions.

Let me give a quick overview of how my short serve and flick serve are. The initial stance is the same. I stand at T and hold the shuttle as far as my arm length can permit with shuttle at belly area (Like cai yun). This leads to my first question:

1) Since I am quite shorter, 5'8 and 1/2, can I hold my birdie like Cai Yun so far like that without affecting the effectiveness of my serve trajectory?

I hold my birdie like Cai Yun because mentally I believe it is more consistant because the birdie is exactly the same distance from my body everytime.

When I pull back my racket, at the end of my backswing, the racket has already assumed an angle, the angle at which my racket will hit the birdie. (Recall the thread about the short serve tips)
This leads to question number 2:

2a) Is this the correct timing to angle the racquet at end of backswing or only just before the contact of shuttle.
2b) And is the angleing of the racquet from the fingers or the forearm?

This is where my short serve and flick serve seperate. In the case of the short serve, I just keep the angle and use both a bit of forearm and wrist to hit the birdie. In the case of the flick, I uncock wrist and use forearm and wrist Supination to further propel the birdie. This leads to question 3:

3) Should I supinate wrist and forearm in flick serve?



Concerning overhead forehand stroke:

I read the finger power revisited thread, and it seemed to me there was a clash between pinky power and thumb + index. When I go through the relax and tighten process, It seems to me I do both, in a really quick order. I pull wrist back to the extreme, then as my forearm starts propelling foward, I first tighten the pinky to give it the initial acceleration and as contact is made, I tighten my pinky and thumb to give it the snap.

4) Is the above correct?

Another thing concerns drops. I only recently recognized the immense power of the wrist. My strokes are now very snappy. However, it confuses me when I try to drop (without slicing), since if I want to be deceptive, i would have to pull back wrist like a smash. Then how do I execute this drop shot?

5) How do we do this?


Concerning footwork:

You are right handed and at your base. Opponent hits to your forehand. You split step and are about to make contact with the floor.

6) Do you push off with both feet equal in strength?

Another thing I want to clarify:

When using the cross-step to get to back of court (like for example Lin Dan)

7) Do you bend your legs or keep them pretty straight?


Almost forgot:

8) Do you use pronation / supination in lifts?

Thanks for the long read!

[westwood_13]

I can't answer all of your questions, but I'll try with a few.
1 and 2) I'm not familiar with Cai Yun's technique (to be honest I don't keep up with any of the pros), however, the second part I am interested in. You say that your racquet has already assumed an angle upon the backswing... keep in mind that on an optimal short serve, the backswing is very short and the angle is almost indistinguishable from being straight, or parallel to the net. If you are using an unconventional angle, and it's working for you, that's okay too. I'm concerned, however, that it's going to affect your deception when you want to flick or hit a drive serve. When flicking, the motion and backswing should be identical to your short serve, but at the last possible moment, when contacting the bird, you 'flick' your hand upward so your knuckles are pointing towards the face. This allows for maximum deception. The angling should come from the fingers only.

4) I agree with your perception on the finger power thread. I find that for overhead clearing, it is biomechanically almost the same as throwing a ball. While pulling back you will likely be gripping with your index finger as well as the bottom three fingers for stability. Keep in mind that it's not just the pinky that is important, the bottom three all have a crucial role to play. When throwing, the wrist needs to... I'm not sure how to describe it, so I'll use the word 'invert'. This meaning that the knuckles go from facing away from you to towards you. To initiate this process and obtain the 'snap' crucial to a clean overhead stroke, tightening the lower fingers is crucial, as it pulls the tendons to turn the wrist. Just remember to try and keep the wrist as loose as possible... it must flow freely, and not lock. The snap should occur just as the bird is approaching, and the momentum generated by the snap is used to hit the bird in the forward motion. Keep in mind that the snap comes before any large foreward arm move movement... during this point, really only the forearm is moving, the upper arm stays stationary until the bird is contacted, then it proceeds through the backswing.

5) Theoretically, your clear, smash, and drop should all look identical. Start by hitting half-smashes with the exact same form as your clear. The only difference between the clear and smash is where the bird is hit... the clear it is directly above your shoulder, the smash it is perhaps twenty cm in front of you. A touch drop (wrist drop) is simply a smash with less snap. There is always a lot of temptation to slice or use the arm rather than the wrist, but if you practice standing drops and let the wrist flow freely, being careful not to let the upper arm move before the backswing.

6) Yes, I think so.

7) Again, not familiar with Lin Dan's technique. But I bend at about a 35 degree angle.

8) I understand the definition of pronation as being hand facing up, and supination as being hand facing down... so I don't think I understand the question.

I hope that helped somewhat. If you need clarification or have more questions, you can post here or PM me. Also, after I finish finals in a week, I can probably take some video for you if you want some help with specific techniques.

[Gollum]

1) Since I am quite shorter, 5'8 and 1/2, can I hold my birdie like Cai Yun so far like that without affecting the effectiveness of my serve trajectory?

Shorter players can make a flatter serve if they step back just a little from the service line. It's better to keep the shuttle at arm's length and step back a little, rather than bring the shuttle closer to your body.

Hitting the shuttle away from your body is an important principle for all strokes.

2a) Is this the correct timing to angle the racquet at end of backswing or only just before the contact of shuttle.
2b) And is the angleing of the racquet from the fingers or the forearm?

a) I believe either way is effective. Some players play the serve without rotating the racket at all; others play the serve with a small rotation of the racket.

On the whole, professionals seem to favour a small rotation, rather than the completely flat swing.

You don't, however, want to give away information about your serve. However you angle the racket on the backswing, make sure that you perform all your different serves from this same preparation.

b) The angling is most certainly not from the fingers -- you don't want to be rolling the racket in your fingers, because your grip for hitting will be unstable. The angling is from the forearm, although you should still feel the control in the fingers (because you have a sensitive, relaxed grip!).

This is where my short serve and flick serve seperate. In the case of the short serve, I just keep the angle and use both a bit of forearm and wrist to hit the birdie. In the case of the flick, I uncock wrist and use forearm and wrist Supination to further propel the birdie. This leads to question 3:

3) Should I supinate wrist and forearm in flick serve?

This is the main advantage of the rotating motion, as opposed to the completely flat swing: it is easier to get the power for a flick serve.

Yes, pronating the forearm on the backswing, followed by supinating the forearm on the forwards swing, will help you make a good flick serve. Note that the rotation should be small and controlled, not large and wild.

(Technically, the wrist doesn't pronate or supinate at all. Ever. It will follow the forearm swing with its own motion -- a small ulnal deviation -- if you allow it to move in a relaxed way.)

If you use this way (rotation, not a flat swing) for the flick, you should use the same backswing for the low serve -- otherwise, your opponents can see which serve you will do.

Concerning overhead forehand stroke:

I read the finger power revisited thread, and it seemed to me there was a clash between pinky power and thumb + index. When I go through the relax and tighten process, It seems to me I do both, in a really quick order. I pull wrist back to the extreme, then as my forearm starts propelling foward, I first tighten the pinky to give it the initial acceleration and as contact is made, I tighten my pinky and thumb to give it the snap.

4) Is the above correct?

Yes, but you can go further. All the fingers may be used to tighten the grip. The pinky and ring finger start a "forwards catapulting" movement of the racket into the palm, and the other fingers tighten as well. The index finger and thumb are especially important to help control the racket rotation between them.

Another thing concerns drops. I only recently recognized the immense power of the wrist. My strokes are now very snappy. However, it confuses me when I try to drop (without slicing), since if I want to be deceptive, i would have to pull back wrist like a smash. Then how do I execute this drop shot?

5) How do we do this?

First, you would ideally slice every drop (either slice or reverse slice). A good sliced drop is always better than an unsliced drop.

Whatever method you use, the key to dropshot deception is to start with a fast swing but hit with a slower swing. Slicing makes the deception much easier, because you can use a fairly fast swing and still take the pace off the shuttle with the slice.

Try not to make your preparation for a smash too elaborate or tense. Don't make a big wind-up: it doesn't help your smash, and it makes deception harder. Stay relaxed; I recommend a neutral wrist position (not cocked) until after you start the swing, when the wrist will naturally drop behind your racket into a relaxed cocked position.

6) Do you push off with both feet equal in strength?

No. To make a movement in one direction, you need an initial counter-movement in the opposite direction. One foot will provide this; for example, to move right, use your left foot to push off.

When using the cross-step to get to back of court (like for example Lin Dan)

7) Do you bend your legs or keep them pretty straight?

I'm not sure exactly what footwork you are describing. As a general principle, however, steps should be long and low. These are more powerful and faster than higher, shorter steps.

8) Do you use pronation / supination in lifts?

Absolutely yes. This is fundamental.

It is possible to play deceptive lifts from the net using grip tightening (finger power) alone (useful in singles), but most lifts are not like this. Most of the time, you will need the forearm rotation to power the lift.

[westwood_13]

Gollum pointed out some great things.

Also I misinterpreted. He/she is right... the angling does not come from the fingers. What I meant was that the angle should come from the wrist. Also definitely right on 6), however the second step is going to require a powerful advance from the right leg.

I also definitely agree that slicing drops is ideal. The slice should visually not be variable from your clear/shot/drop form, keep that in mind. The difference is only in a subtle angling of the wrist, or a slight movement in the case of a brush drop. Make sure you master the touch drop technique prior to moving to cuts, though, or you'll find that the shot will not have deceptive properties compared to your clears/smashes.

[Gollum]

What I meant was that the angle should come from the wrist.

Good point.

If we are to be precise, the angle change comes from both wrist and forearm. On the backswing, the forearm pronates and the wrist deviates radially; on the forward swing, the forearm supinates and the wrist deviates ulnally.

Forearm and wrist always work together.

[Tianjin]

Thank you both for your input and advice. I have learned alot.

Just to clarify some of the things I was asking earlier. For the lifts, I meant those that you aproach with the racquet high and flick it with very little backswing.

And for the position of the serve, I was talking about doubles. Therefore, should I still back up a bit from the T?

[westwood_13]

Okay, yeah, I understand where you're coming from with the lifts... straight flicks are what I do too, it's great to avoid using arm whenever you can. I always think of it like a serving plate. If you had a plate on your hand, and wanted to catch the bird right in the middle, how would you hold your hand? Flat, parallel to the floor. The key to generating the power and flexion is the elbow position. This is pretty hard to describe over zee interweb, but I shall try. This is for forehand, but once you can do it forehand, it's the same but opposite in backhand. I'm going to describe to you the technique I've learned and most of the players at my club use, and you can compare it to yours... because, like I said, I didn't quite understand your question. Sorry for my long-winded tendencies.

Hold your arm directly out in front of you, no bent joints. Ensure the palm is facing up. Move your arm 15 or 20 degrees to the right (assuming you are right-handed). Bend it slightly... you will notice that your elbow moves more across your body, coming slightly inward towards the centre of your chest, and your hand will move more in the direction of your thumb. You'll also feel a slight tension in your forearm - this is the source of your flick power. Now throw the imaginary plate on your hand... you'll flick your wrist upward, and your forearm will move upward as well. Your upper arm will not move... this is key to the deception and effectiveness of the flick. When starting the stroke, always ensure that the racquet face is parallel with the floor, which allows you to easily hit a net shot off the same shot. Getting the correct angle on the lift is simply a matter of a minute angle adjustment to the racquet... too small to be really visible. This comes from the power in your lower fingers and a natural motion of the wrist... if it feels forced, it wont work right. At first, you will probably not have the strength to get the bird to the back of the court this way... it's very difficult. I still can't do it all the time. Backhand in the same, except your elbow will move away from your body and the hand will move across to your left when you bend it.

A great way to perfect your flick motion and build up the strength is wallpractice. Hitting out in front of your body, with your elbow bent, flicking the wrist and using the forearm, but keeping the upper arm in the same position, even switching from side to side. The only thing that will really change is elbow position... for forehand, it will feel slightly cramped, in towards you, and for backhand, it is somewhat wide of the body.

I hope this makes sense! The key to a good flick, basically, is to keep your hand parallel to the floor, don't overextend and reach with your arm, and essentially remove motions and of the upper arm and shoulder from the shot completely. Like I said, long-winded, heh, sorry.

And with regards to the doubles serve, I'll let Gollum take care of that one , he (?) seems to know best. I'm 5'4, but I like to stand with my leading foot right up against the line, on my tiptoes, and my doubles serve is my best strength, in fact. But techniques are really variable across the board and I'm pretty atypical in that respect.

[Tianjin]

Thanks, I get your point about no shoulder movement and only wrist and forehand.

However, let us suppose you want to do a quick forehand lift with almost no backswing on a drop which is at middle of the court. You start out with your racket flat and high as you said in your example of the imaginally plate. However, as your flicking that birdie up, is your racket rotating? (pronation of forearm+wrist like opening a doorknob) Is it the same for backhand?

And once again thank you both for your really developped explanations. They have been extremely helpful!

[westwood_13]

Yes, but only slightly unless you are hitting a drive shot. After you finish the shot on the forehand, the rip of your ring finger will be pointing directly at you. Your wrist will be about halfway between pronation and being directly up and down (directly up and down being like, a handshake position). Your palm should be definitely facing far more up than sideways or to the opposite corner of the court. Same thing in reverse with the backhand.

It's like, in the arm position I describe above, you have your wrist cocked back (but not too far) in order to have the plate flat, rather than it being flat because of your arm position. After you've hit the shot, your wrist returns to where it naturally would be, not bent.

Glad we could help you out!

[Gollum]

Thank you both for your input and advice. I have learned alot.

Just to clarify some of the things I was asking earlier. For the lifts, I meant those that you aproach with the racquet high and flick it with very little backswing.

And for the position of the serve, I was talking about doubles. Therefore, should I still back up a bit from the T?

The most deceptive lifts are played in singles, at the net, with the racket high. These are played using power from grip tightening only, with little or no forearm rotation. They are shallow attacking lifts.

You can't do this in the midcourt. You need to use your forearm.

When you serve in doubles, you can stand back a little from the front line. Not too much -- just a step. This is helpful if you are shorter, because you can make a flatter low serve. If you stand right at the front, the serve may go upwards too much. It's a compromise. Lee Jae Bok recommends this in his video on the doubles low serve.

If you watch professional players, you will see that many of the shorter players stand back slightly to serve (especially the women, who are generally shorter than the men).

I prefer to stand right at the front, but then I am six feet tall.