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  1. #35
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jug8man
    Topic : Foreign Import Players

    It's a classic case of Doing the 'Good' Thing vs Doing the 'Right' Thing.

    Singapore IMHO is doing the 'Right' thing, and is definetely in the right path. Because they are doing what is needed to develop their sport further by taking such necesarry measures much elaborated by Loh.

    Loh : I agree


    Singapore is not doing the 'Good' thing. This is because, to do 'good', and to look 'good' / 'correct' (or any other terms that reflects 'politically straight policy') by not taking in foreign players.... Singapore would suffer greatly in the sports area which i am sure Singapore Govt ragards as an important component in maintaining Social / Moral / economic BALANCES.

    Surely this is reflected in there yearly budget allocation for sport development. I don't have any figures but i can imagine
    I agree it is a rather sensitive balance for badminton in particular as all of Singapore's badminton imports are from traditionally strong Asian badminton countries.

    Thankfully China and Indonesia have so many talented players that it doesn't create any dent at all to their talent pool if Singapore can offer them a place and professional training for future development.

    Singapore mitigated the situation initially by importing very young talents in their early teens and not simply taking direct from their national teams. The latter would have created undesirable consequences. But Singapore seems willing to take in older foreign imports nowadays as it takes a shorter time to develop them to achieve a certain measure of international success needed to sustain local badminton interest. In this regard, Singapore seems to be more flexible but whether the foreign talent could fit in and perform is another matter.

    The recent impasse of Zhou Mi, who is still keen on training for the Beijing Olympics 2008, having to give up Malaysia and trying her hand in Hong Kong as she no longer has a place in the China National Team, is a case in point. This is more acceptable to the Chinese as Hong Kong is a part of China. And many years back, when Indonesian national hero, Taufik Hidayat was dissatisfied with conditions at home and wanted to move to Singapore but later changed his mind after being convinced by the authorities.

    Could you imagine what it would be if Singapore makes gestures to the Malaysian juniors to play for Singapore? Malaysians would find no difficulty in assimilating into Singaporean society and should be better adjusted than players from China and Indonesia.

    Another politically sensitive issue indeed!

  2. #36
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Well Loh,

    I have heard that that possibility has already begun to happen. But since some of these players are relatively new names in the national setup, you don't read it in the paper.

    But with the really-really financially sound KLRC just next door, Singapore appears to be a lesser of two 'threats' in regards to their players.

    For those in the know.

    Cheers.

  3. #37
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    Hi Loh,

    SBA can't develop they are own player. Just Import players from China and Indonesia...

    Not only the players. Coaches also import from Indonesia and China.


    But the problem now:
    1. Some of import players (can say: all), the age is not actual.
    2. Some of import players got serious injury last time.
    3. Some of the Coaches has not enough experiences to coach for single players. Just has confident and come to singapore and coach at SBA. SBA only see them: OH From PBSI, so if from PBSI, SBA means: Good and Good....

    One Example for SBA Import Player:
    Riky widianto: Last Time in Indonesia player under WIMA CLUB, so He join at Jakarta and Surabaya competation under 19. But very funny, This people apply job to SBA and said: My age is 15 years. So we can see, at the Cheer Youth International 2006, Riky join play under 17 and he lost in final.

    So not only Riky Widianto... The rest also same...

    Example for SBA Import Coach:
    Asep Suharno: I look at Today Newspaper that said: Asep is main coach in PBSI, so he train Simon, Sony, etc
    And Said again: now Asep coach SBA Single player for main coach....

    Is it right: No. Last Time Asep Suharno in PBSI not Main Coach.. He is Assistance Coach (less than 3 months). Before Assistance Coach, He is only the Feeder Guest (give drilling to player). So I mean: Asep not much experiences to be main coach. He can't make badminton program to improve the players. He just has confident..

    Another Coach: Chafidz Yusuf. He is last time in Indonesia as assistance Coach for Yunior players. Now SBA Recruit him to coach SBA Double players.
    This people, I think Good coach. He got alots experiences to coach double players. But He has not discipline and smoker.. So very bad: He come to singapore to coach because he got problem with his first wife... So he don't want to bring his wife to stay at singapore. He also got problem with his second wife...

    Another things: Why Idris Hadi resign or SBA Terminated his contract?? Do you know what happens? I know is that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loh
    I wish I could agree with you that Singapore has all the resources. Although I agree that sailing is a rare exception, still we have to look towards the more experienced foreign coaches to help us achieve success. As I've said, in badminton we practically have no proven local coaches to help build the national team. Additionally, although the mindset is changing, we still need to work hard on the parents and their sports talented children to turn professional.

    Yes time is of the essence and for certain sports which we lagged far behind international standards, we need foreign talent to help us narrow the gulf and create more interest among our own populace. I'm sure most of us don't desire to wait another 10 to 20 years to have a national team worthy of international standards.

    Tao Li is still young and came from a different background. Personally, I think she has adjusted well and is much admired by her friends in the Sports School. She came here to learn English and now has to learn to sing the National Anthem in Malay. Evidently from the TY footages we saw, she struggled with the language but was making valiant attempts. Even among local-born Singaporeans, we still have many who can't sing the NA. Thankfully, time is on Tao Li's side and I've no doubt that she will succeed in the end.

    I can't comment on our present or past foreign talent athletes who have become citizens. Some are still contributing, others have made good after retirement but some have not. Some became model citizens, others may not. This is a fact of life for all citizens, whether local or foreign born. Even some Singapore citizens emigrate elsewhere for whatever reasons. So it is not quite right for us to pass judgment. So long as they have done their part and delivered when they are most wanted, they have fulfilled their obligations and we can only hope that they will be able to continue to live happily in Singapore.

    At least they are better than so-called citizens who caused death and destruction to their own people in their own countries.

  4. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jurong_twister
    Frankly speaking, Singapore has all the resources (players, coaches, dollars, facilities, etc).

    This has been proven in Sailing.
    Sailing is a rich-man's / rich-country sport. Assuming you have to start them very young, how many youngsters in poorer countries have access to the costly equipment needed for sailing? Eventually though, countries will become wealthier and be able to catch up.

    This is the same as Singapore swimming. Whereas Singapore may take the existence of public swimming pools etc for granted, they were a rarity in developing countries in the 1980s. Now, even poorer countries have swimming pools all over the place and they start producing swimming talent.

    Mind you, there is nothing wrong with specialising in sports that cost a lot of money. But just pointing out why 'sailing' is not proof that Singapore can do well in sports where there are fewer barriers to entry.

  5. #39
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Hi saugusli,

    You have some interesting information on the Indonesian players and coaches which most of us outsiders do not have. I hope though that what you know is not pure rumours or half truths.

    On the age of players, it does seem that some players appear to be older than their age group because of their bigger physical size, but this can be misleading as some mature faster than others and the more hardworking can build up their muscles quicker.

    Also, the better players can play in a higher age group though they may be much younger. But the reverse cannot be allowed, ie, older players cannot play in a younger age group and it appears you are suggesting this is the case with some older players in some of our age-group competitions. If so the authorities must be notified so that an investigation can be made to verify their age and to be fair to all the other genuine participants. In any case, the team managers of the other countries can lodge a complaint if they are dissatisfied.

    As for the coaches' ability, time will tell whether they are up to the task. Yes I saw many new faces from China and Indonesia and some former coaches must have finished their contracts. But these foreign coaches also take the risk when they come to Singapore to coach as they must perform otherwise they will not be retained. Foreign coaches are just like any other human being. They have their own problems at home, they have their fears, they have their own limitations but when a chance is given to them to experience a new life, to prove that they can do better, why deny them that chance? And the truth will come when our national players compete with others in the SS, Satellite and team tournaments. But I can tell you that to be a winner is getting harder by the day as other countries are also improving. You should understand this better as even powerful Indonesia has not been able to retain its pole position consistently! At the last World Championships, it was an English pair that won the men's doubles! Unlikely but true.

    As I have tried to make others understand, Singapore is different from China or Indonesia or even Malaysia. We are much, much smaller in size, both in geography and in population. We are at different stage of economic development where young people are more attracted to enterprises that can give them a better future in terms of career and earning power. Unfortunately badminton as well as the sports industry have notbeen perceived to reach that stage yet that could match the demands of our young talents. It is changing and the better prize monies offered by BWF in the SS series is a step in the right direction.

    Actually, Singapore's sports reward attractions are not to be sniffed at. Our parents and athletes should know that the Singapore Government and the National Sports Associations (NSAs) dish out attractive rewards. $1million for an Olympic gold, $250,000 for an Asian Games gold, etc, etc. Then there may be commercial endorsements for the winner. The industry may join in to reward with their company products like property developers may give a house or an apartment as a promotion for their own products or services. Malaysia's squash queen, Nicole, should know.

  6. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh
    On the age of players, it does seem that some players appear to be older than their age group because of their bigger physical size, but this can be misleading as some mature faster than others and the more hardworking can build up their muscles quicker.
    I do not mean to single out any country in particular, but Singapore has a regulation that domestic workers from foreign countries be of a minimum age of 23. However, you still have 19 year olds domestic workers coming with valid and genuine passports stating that they are 25 years old. So for some countries, it does not seem that hard to 'change' your age.

    The problem of overaged players playing in age-group tournaments affects many sports, just do a search in yahoo or google "overaged players."

    There is always a risk that imported players may be overaged, but at the same time, we should not automatically assume that they are overaged. At the national level - eg: selection for national squad, I presume that there is more careful screening done, i.e. look not only at passport but at school records etc. But at a lower level, eg: recruit to play for school, do they do a thorough screening or do they just rely on the age in the passport?

    As for say, a protest lodged and verification done, it boils down to the same thing. If at a international level, perhaps they do a thorough verification. If protest at inter-school level, maybe all they can do is look at the passport and rely on the age stated.

  7. #41
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    I believe the main argument whether we should call them Singaporeans or Indonesian/Chinese imported shuttlers.

    It comes to this point, because somebody isnt happy with the term Indonesian/Chinese imported shuttlers. However, as stated earlier on, Singapore TV/News coverage were still calling others "Bahrain Kenyan imported sprinters" during Asian Games.

    So, it's not wrong for us (the public) to call them Indonesian/Chinese imported shuttlers.

    Case closed and let's move on.

  8. #42
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Default Cheaters must be Exposed

    Yes, I agree with Storkbill that age verification should be done more indepth, in greater detail, especially when there is any indication that the player appears older for his declared age.

    Cheating should not be condoned just because one wants to win. In the true spirit of sportsmanship, we should send a this signal to players who bring disrepute to the game.

  9. #43
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jurong_twister
    I believe the main argument whether we should call them Singaporeans or Indonesian/Chinese imported shuttlers.

    It comes to this point, because somebody isnt happy with the term Indonesian/Chinese imported shuttlers. However, as stated earlier on, Singapore TV/News coverage were still calling others "Bahrain Kenyan imported sprinters" during Asian Games.

    So, it's not wrong for us (the public) to call them Indonesian/Chinese imported shuttlers.

    Case closed and let's move on.
    No I don't think this is the main argument.

    The main argument is on the importing of foreign talents, from any country who may not have a chance to develop to their full potential in their own country for various reasons.

    Some host countries, like Singapore, are willing to take the risk to adopt foreign talents and invest in their development. These host countries hope the foreign talents can not only bring honour to the country but also raise its own standards and create an on-going interest in the game which may inspire the local talents to turn professional and fill the ranks of the National Teams in time to come.

    We don't call them by the names you suggested, maybe out of jealousy or other reasons because some of our foreign imports, who later became Singapore citizens by choice, have made good and win international badminton titles, big or small and are able to assimilate into local society. They are far better off remaining in their home countries where they are not treasured for their abilities and rewarded accordingly.

    Just as we don't think it is appropriate to call a Chinese now residing in Indonesia a "China-export-Chinese-Indonesian". We simply acknowledge him as Indonesian and if we want to be more explicit, we can elaborate further that he is an Indonesian of Chinese descent, because his forefathers came from China. We call Americans, Americans. We don't discriminate them as Chinese Americans, Indonesian Americans, etc, etc. If we want to short-cut, we may "perhaps" say to close friends that his is an American-Chinese or an American-Indonesian, simply because we should honour the host country's name first and not the other way round.

    The main point is try not to discredit what a host country has done for the 'foreign import' or to cast the host country in bad light.

  10. #44
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    Some host countries, like Singapore, are willing to take the risk to adopt foreign talents and invest in their development.
    Is that so? then, why are all the badminton team & table tennis team still consist 95% of imported shuttlers after more than 1/2 decade? A failure? YES.

    just as we don't think it is appropriate to call a Chinese now residing in Indonesia a "China-export-Chinese-Indonesian".
    You can call that to my Grand Father, because that what he is. He still shows his love for his country of origin even after living in Indonesian since 1942. I am the third generation. I was born in Indonesia. That's why I shall be faithful & bear allegiance to my country no matter how bad it is.

    What is wrong with calling Indonesian/Chinese IMPORTED shuttlers? No matter how you re-word it to a better word "foreign talent"
    , why cant you accept THE FACT that they are IMPORTED shuttlers.

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    which may inspire the local talents to turn professional and fill the ranks of the National Teams in time to come.
    What happen to those foreign talent that DO NOT want to take the citizenship? Where are they now? If that is the main objective, Shouldnt they be still in the national team?

  12. #46
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jurong_twister
    Is that so? then, why are all the badminton team & table tennis team still consist 95% of imported shuttlers after more than 1/2 decade? A failure? YES.
    That's why I said you have a rather myopic view.

    I personally believe that our foreign talent scheme has succeeded for badminton and will continue to make contributions to fulfilling Singapore's plans and ambitions.

    You may not think it significant, but I think Ronald Susilo, Kendrick Lee, Li Li, Jiang Yanmei, Li Yujia, Hendri Supatra and Xing Aiying have in various events put Singapore on the world badminton map when they win individual and team titles.

    This particular thread on "Singapore Women's Team Asian Games Performance" is my way of acknowledging that our women's team had succeeded when many thought we could not. Our ladies from wherever they were before, had made Singapore proud.

    Imagine, much stronger badminton countries like Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia were unable to win a women's team medal at the Doha Asian Gemes, but Singapore got a bronze. When our women's team won a place in the finals of the Uber Cup at the expense of some stronger Asian countries, it was unheard of. Of course, now the rest of the world has woken up to the fact that tiny Singapore can play badminton too!

    These foreign talents have made a huge difference to the badminton scene in Singapore. They are role models to our talented young and have inspired many more school children to take up the game. Yes they serve as a foundation to the further development of the game here.

    So much so that our government and our Sports Council have decided to invest further in badminton as one of the few core Olympic games that can produce Olympic medals. This accouncement was made only recently after Singapore's 8 gold medal success at the recent Doha Asian Games.

    Yes, it has taken Singapore Badminton a long time to arrive at this stage, which I consider just past Foundation Stage, still early days indeed for it to grow. I don't expect too much in the next 2 to 3 years as you tried to instigate. Our Sports School is only about 3 years' old, our first real batch of a handful of local talents only started turning professional last year, so how ambitious can one be? We need more numbers, we need more to join the SS and we are waiting anxiously for the SS to provide us with local talents to be trained to represent Singapore. The last bit has not even started yet. So be patient, more reasonable and more realistic.

    Just because Indonesia has so many local talents that it need not import foreign players does not give you the right to deride other countries who may not be so well endowed. As a badminton fan, you should encourage more interaction among countries and players so that we will have a more vibrant and exciting badminton industry that will raise standards all round.

    I don't wish to discriminate against foreign talents by giving them different names just as I don't wish to call you Chinese Indonesian. I like to accord our citizens as Singaporeans or Singapore players.

  13. #47
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jurong_twister
    What happen to those foreign talent that DO NOT want to take the citizenship? Where are they now? If that is the main objective, Shouldnt they be still in the national team?
    Frankly, this is a free country. If one feels that one is better off residing elsewhere, it is his choice.

    You are asking very personal questions for which you should not expect an answer. You should satisfy yourself by confronting those people in question. I can't answer for them.

    On a similar note, you should also ask, if you are an Indonesian citizen. why are you in Singapore? Maybe some of their reasons may be similar to yours.

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    myopic view???
    http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/printfr...,83071,00.html

    http://info.channelnewsasia.com/bb/v...7ac04f21212f55

    You may want to spend more time reading newspaper and local forums.

    I dont bother much when someone is calling me Chinese Indonesian, because that's the truth. The same way as in IMPORTED shuttlers, because that is the truth as well.

    You are asking very personal questions for which you should not expect an answer. You should satisfy yourself by confronting those people in question. I can't answer for them.
    No, I dont. You keep narrating a story that foreign talent is introduced for the benefit of the public. So, they will be more interested in badminton, etc bla bla bla. If that's the fact, Why there are so many past players who were being terminated after they decide not to take the citizenship?

    why are you in Singapore? Maybe some of their reasons may be similar to yours.
    You can call me Imported Indonesian Skilled Resident, because that's the fact.

    I am not as narrow-minded as you. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that they are in FACT the IMPORTED shuttlers.

  15. #49
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Develping badminton in Singapore is for both the public including the school children, the badminton fraternity as well as for the country, not the public alone. The country's citizens must have something to look forward to, to bond themselves, to identify with and to make them feel proud. Winning medals at important competitions such as the Olympic, Asian, Commonwealth and SEA Games is one of the ways to achieve this objective.

    There is nothing wrong with imported players if we think they can help us achieve certain objectives as I have ennumerated on several occasions. Singapore is a country of imports and exports, we have been an entrepot for ages, so this is nothing new. What I take offence to is the way you try make our foreign talents look as though they are cheap, unwanted, second class, even traitors to their own country should they beat their ex-countrymen, someone whom you can ridicule at will. So it is not a "narrow-minded" difficulty to acknowledge the fact.

    Why do we need to import foreign talents? Precisely because we need them to help us raise our own standards so that we can compete with the rest of the world. If a foreign talent cannot help us to do this, if he or she is unwilling to become a citizen to represent the country because certain important events like the Olympics only permit citizens to play, then why should Singapore continue to invest in and develop them? We should choose someone who is more willing.

    If you are a true patriot, you should remain in your own country to impart your skills and help your own people to develop and grow.
    Last edited by Loh; 01-10-2007 at 05:55 AM.

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    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    I really see this discussion going no where. Without taking sides or stirring the pot further, I suggest both to just end the discussion or perhaps this will be another thread locked?

    TBBMBB(N)

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    foreign talents look as though they are cheap, unwanted, second class, even traitors to their own country should they beat their ex-countrymen, someone whom you can ridicule at will.
    Get me the fact. In which section, did I post such comment???

    Why do we need to import foreign talents? Precisely because we need them to help us raise our own standards so that we can compete with the rest of the world. If a foreign talent cannot help us to do this, if he or she is unwilling to become a citizen to represent the country because certain important events like the Olympics only permit citizens to play, then why should Singapore continue to invest and develop them? We should choose someone who is more willing.
    As I have stated earlier on, why do they terminate those who are unwilling to take the citizenship if that's their main objective? It just doesnt make sense. Why do they have to be a citizen?

    If you are a true patriot, you should remain in your own country to impart your skills and help your own people to develop and grow.
    Because I am an Imported Skilled Resident. That's what I am getting paid for. I acknowledge it unlike you who is persistent with your myopic view.

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