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  1. #52
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    Default My 2 cents, on LinDan and Taufik, specifically..

    (ok, been reading but haven't post anything. So just want to chime in and give my 2 cents on this)..
    ..all i know is this(sorry again if this post is like another one of those career reviews or sounds like a recap of other posts):
    - Taufik, who is well known as a "badminton prodigy", started his badminton career as early as 15/16 yrs. old in PBSI/Pelatnas. Early in his career his success earned him a #1 ranking in the world, but that ranking was brief. Although he's still missing the AE title, he was arguably the youngest Finalist @ the 1999 AE, at the age of 18 y.o. As far as personal accomplishments go, he's won the Olympic, World Championships & Asiad titles in consecutive yrs. However, in terms of yr in & yr out achievements i don't recall him winning as many titles as LD has the last 2-3 yrs.

    - LinDan although not considered as a "badminton prodigy" in comparison to Taufik, he has built his own fame and success thru winning consistently, yr in & yr out. He started his rise a few yrs later than Taufik. Unlike Taufik, he is well known to win consistently yr in & yr out. And it was thru his diligence, hard work and self motivation which earned him his current undisputed #1 ranking, arguably the past couple of yrs or so. As far as his personal accomplishments go, he has won the World Championship and All England titles, all in the same yr, with the Olympic title still missing.

    Some people would argue, Taufik didn't win so many titles because he didn't attend those tourneys(partly blaming PBSI who didn't send him etc.). Well, matter of fact is, if Taufik was sent, was he fully prepared?? Forget abt the numerous injuries he had(hip, back etc.). I mean i wonder, how many tournaments did he attend last yr in comparison to LinDan?? Compare that to LinDan, who arguably attended abt the same no., if not more tourneys than Taufik did last yr. I would imagine LinDan would have more valid excuse if he was injured, don't y'all think?? Was LinDan "lucky" to be "healthier" than Taufik?? Yes, he was healthy and fit to compete this whole yr. Fact is, Taufik was sent to other tourneys but didn't win them. Fact is, this whole yr, he only won the Indonesian Open and the Asian Games title(that's 2 out of how many tournaments he competed in??).

    So, who's "better"(or to an extent to the thread's topic) if you ask me??
    IMO, my answer is, BOTH of them. But winning them consistency-wise, LinDan hands down. And not only this yr, but in the last couple of yrs. or so. Don't get me wrong, both LinDan & Taufik are special in their own ways and it's hard to argue against all their achievements. But IMO, i would say CONSISTENCY in performance is "harder" to accomplish, thus i will give my nod to LinDan. If i want to get more "picky" i would say let's wait 1 or 2 more yrs, when LinDan reaches Taufik's current age(25) and we can compare.
    But i can say so only in the current generation of players; as i can't compare to older generation of players as there are so much differences. Most importantly, IMO, because BOTH of them *need* each other to compete with and bring out the best in each other.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 12-30-2006 at 01:19 PM.

  2. #53
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    In TH fans eye, TH only need to win 1 tournament a year to hold onto the greatest player status Remember that neither LD, chen jin, or chen hong entered the 06 Indonesian Open so TH winning the INA Open isn't a great task.

  3. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    In TH fans eye, TH only need to win 1 tournament a year to hold onto the greatest player status
    Yes but this is TH's own making. He has publicly stated he only focusses on certain events eg. OG, AG, WC so if he loses he can simply say it was not his focus.

    LD takes pride in winning every tournament he enters, so if he loses, he has no comeback.

    TH has an easier job as it is easier to focus on a long term goal and build up to a big tournament whereas LD focuses for every tournament, so it is difficult to keep a peak for so long.

    Simply put Taufik Cannot lose, and LD has everything to lose under these circumstances.

    I would like to point out however that Taufik did state he aimed to retain his WC title this year and failed. He has also not won AE yet. I Know if he does (win AE) BC will never hear the end of how TH is the best player ever etc... etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20
    Yes but this is TH's own making. He has publicly stated he only focusses on certain events eg. OG, AG, WC so if he loses he can simply say it was not his focus.

    LD takes pride in winning every tournament he enters, so if he loses, he has no comeback.

    TH has an easier job as it is easier to focus on a long term goal and build up to a big tournament whereas LD focuses for every tournament, so it is difficult to keep a peak for so long.

    Simply put Taufik Cannot lose, and LD has everything to lose under these circumstances.

    I would like to point out however that Taufik did state he aimed to retain his WC title this year and failed. He has also not won AE yet. I Know if he does (win AE) BC will never hear the end of how TH is the best player ever etc... etc..
    i have no problem with TH chosen road to success. Your statement 'Taufik Cannot lose, and LD has everything to lose under these circumstances' is true especially for TH fans who only view him winning a few selected big tournaments as real accomplishment. It's human nature i guess.
    I, however, view every tournament as a test and winning each one is of equal accomplishment.

    It's like gambling. If gambler 'A' allocate all his money to buy many tickets for that one big jackpot lottery, chances of winning is high, and if u win, it will be published in the papers and people remember that. However, gambler 'B' buys all kinds of lotteries and win many smaller prizes which in total is larger than that one jackpot, people don't remember those smaller purse winnings. Who is the best lottery picker? I guess this question would also generate many opinions.
    Last edited by cooler; 12-30-2006 at 04:49 PM.

  5. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by saugusli
    Hi... I have also... from 1958... Download from IBF website... so I can see hendri saputra name...

    Your data not up to date man... From PBSI, we also have the all Indonesian players Record...It have hendri saputra...

    I also have the all records who beat who for every tournaments.....

    You still new for badminton man...

    Please check your record since: Fang Kai Hsian won which tournaments??

    And Tang Xinhu won which tournament? And Sumirat Iie... And Hou Jia Chang...

    And also Ang Tjin Siang....

    Tangkas have video: Hendri saputra beat Yang Yang....
    and also Kurniahu beat Wong Shoon Keat...

    So again... You are still new.... I got a lots experiences for badminton man around 30 years.

    So...I ignore your comments...HHaa..
    I have personally watched the great Indonesian players, starting from Ferry Sonneville (not sure about the spelling), Tan Joe Hock, Rudy Hartono (he was 16 when I first saw him play), thru to Lim Swie King, Icuk Sugiato, Alan Budi Kesuma, Ardy Wiranata, Joko Suprianto, to today's Taufik. I am sure Tan Joe Hock was around when you were not. For the life of me, I have not seen your idol play outside Indonesia, let alone an outstanding and great player as you claim.
    Also, the iBF website does not have Hendri Saputra in its Hall of Fame. The IBF's Herbert Scheele Trophy and its Distinguished Service Award also do not have a mention of your idol.
    FYI, Rudy Hartono, Dick Sudirman, Lim Swie King, and Susi Susanti are the only Indonesians in the IBF Hall of Fame, which also includes China's Tang Xianhu and Hou Jiachang. Perhaps leaving out Hendri Saputra was an injustice?
    Even today's leading players Lin Dan and Taufik get beaten by other players. That does not mean they are no good. Yang Yang at his best was also beaten regularly by many players, including Malaysia's Misbun Sidek. So, what does that mean? Remember Rudy Hartono? He was also beaten by other players, but he was still acclaimed as the master.
    You cited old matches from the IBF website. Perhaps you can lead me to it? I do not seem to be able to log in.

  6. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    I have personally watched the great Indonesian players, starting from Ferry Sonneville (not sure about the spelling), Tan Joe Hock, Rudy Hartono (he was 16 when I first saw him play), thru to Lim Swie King, Icuk Sugiato, Alan Budi Kesuma, Ardy Wiranata, Joko Suprianto, to today's Taufik. I am sure Tan Joe Hock was around when you were not. For the life of me, I have not seen your idol play outside Indonesia, let alone an outstanding and great player as you claim.
    Also, the iBF website does not have Hendri Saputra in its Hall of Fame. The IBF's Herbert Scheele Trophy and its Distinguished Service Award also do not have a mention of your idol.
    FYI, Rudy Hartono, Dick Sudirman, Lim Swie King, and Susi Susanti are the only Indonesians in the IBF Hall of Fame, which also includes China's Tang Xianhu and Hou Jiachang. Perhaps leaving out Hendri Saputra was an injustice?
    Even today's leading players Lin Dan and Taufik get beaten by other players. That does not mean they are no good. Yang Yang at his best was also beaten regularly by many players, including Malaysia's Misbun Sidek. So, what does that mean? Remember Rudy Hartono? He was also beaten by other players, but he was still acclaimed as the master.
    You cited old matches from the IBF website. Perhaps you can lead me to it? I do not seem to be able to log in.
    I thought I have followed this game for a quite a while, myself fast approaching geezer age...hahaha! and I have not heard of this Hendri Saputra fella, did Saugusli make this up just for Xmas fun...LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    i have no problem with TH chosen road to success. Your statement 'Taufik Cannot lose, and LD has everything to lose under these circumstances' is true especially for TH fans who only view him winning a few selected big tournaments as real accomplishment. It's human nature i guess.
    I, however, view every tournament as a test and winning each one is of equal accomplishment.

    It's like gambling. If gambler 'A' allocate all his money to buy many tickets for that one big jackpot lottery, chances of winning is high, and if u win, it will be published in the papers and people remember that. However, gambler 'B' buys all kinds of lotteries and win many smaller prizes which in total is larger than that one jackpot, people don't remember those smaller purse winnings. Who is the best lottery picker? I guess this question would also generate many opinions.
    Hi Cooler, I go for the biggie on the 649 draw than those mini $10 winnings...hahaha! LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    i have no problem with TH chosen road to success. Your statement 'Taufik Cannot lose, and LD has everything to lose under these circumstances' is true especially for TH fans who only view him winning a few selected big tournaments as real accomplishment. It's human nature i guess.
    I, however, view every tournament as a test and winning each one is of equal accomplishment.

    It's like gambling. If gambler 'A' allocate all his money to buy many tickets for that one big jackpot lottery, chances of winning is high, and if u win, it will be published in the papers and people remember that. However, gambler 'B' buys all kinds of lotteries and win many smaller prizes which in total is larger than that one jackpot, people don't remember those smaller purse winnings. Who is the best lottery picker? I guess this question would also generate many opinions.
    If you buy lotteries and expect to win you're a chump. Enough said.

  9. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEND.
    If you buy lotteries and expect to win you're a chump. Enough said.
    Nah! it's all for charity...hahahaha! LOL!

  10. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    (ok, been reading but haven't post anything. So just want to chime in and give my 2 cents on this)..
    ..all i know is this(sorry again if this post is like another one of those career reviews or sounds like a recap of other posts):
    - Taufik, who is well known as a "badminton prodigy", started his badminton career as early as 15/16 yrs. old in PBSI/Pelatnas. Early in his career his success earned him a #1 ranking in the world, but that ranking was brief. Although he's still missing the AE title, he was arguably the youngest Finalist @ the 1999 AE, at the age of 18 y.o. As far as personal accomplishments go, he's won the Olympic, World Championships & Asiad titles in consecutive yrs. However, in terms of yr in & yr out achievements i don't recall him winning as many titles as LD has the last 2-3 yrs.

    - LinDan although not considered as a "badminton prodigy" in comparison to Taufik, he has built his own fame and success thru winning consistently, yr in & yr out. He started his rise a few yrs later than Taufik. Unlike Taufik, he is well known to win consistently yr in & yr out. And it was thru his diligence, hard work and self motivation which earned him his current undisputed #1 ranking, arguably the past couple of yrs or so. As far as his personal accomplishments go, he has won the World Championship and All England titles, all in the same yr, with the Olympic title still missing.

    Some people would argue, Taufik didn't win so many titles because he didn't attend those tourneys(partly blaming PBSI who didn't send him etc.). Well, matter of fact is, if Taufik was sent, was he fully prepared?? Forget abt the numerous injuries he had(hip, back etc.). I mean i wonder, how many tournaments did he attend last yr in comparison to LinDan?? Compare that to LinDan, who arguably attended abt the same no., if not more tourneys than Taufik did last yr. I would imagine LinDan would have more valid excuse if he was injured, don't y'all think?? Was LinDan "lucky" to be "healthier" than Taufik?? Yes, he was healthy and fit to compete this whole yr. Fact is, Taufik was sent to other tourneys but didn't win them. Fact is, this whole yr, he only won the Indonesian Open and the Asian Games title(that's 2 out of how many tournaments he competed in??).

    So, who's "better"(or to an extent to the thread's topic) if you ask me??
    IMO, my answer is, BOTH of them. But winning them consistency-wise, LinDan hands down. And not only this yr, but in the last couple of yrs. or so. Don't get me wrong, both LinDan & Taufik are special in their own ways and it's hard to argue against all their achievements. But IMO, i would say CONSISTENCY in performance is "harder" to accomplish, thus i will give my nod to LinDan. If i want to get more "picky" i would say let's wait 1 or 2 more yrs, when LinDan reaches Taufik's current age(25) and we can compare.
    But i can say so only in the current generation of players; as i can't compare to older generation of players as there are so much differences. Most importantly, IMO, because BOTH of them *need* each other to compete with and bring out the best in each other.
    Well said, both are great players and history would treat them well, their matches are very special and BCers can get enough of them (just check how darn slow is the download).....My takes are TH is not motivated (too much time and hard work to train for the Opens), and does not need to participate and win the Opens for his livelihood (the winnings are chicken-feed anyway, INA reward TH heavily for winning the majors and bringing glory to INA and TH is married into a rich family). Also, TH's position in INA is lock in, nobody to threaten and knock him off from Team INA, anyway INA is more afraid of TH quiting.
    LD position in CHN is not really safe, just look at XXZ and CH, two world class players who can play for any country (and that includes MAS, DEN, KOR and INA) but cannot make Team CHN , and if either would come to Canada, can probably play until old age to collect pension (just look at our own 48-yr old Canada best WS Denise, hahaha!).
    Lots of players coming up to threaten and knock off LD from Team CHN. Just imagine AG qualify only 2 players from CHN and that is from a badminton fanatic nation with 1.3 billion ppl, if LD slacks one bit, he is out of Team CHN. LD needs to win Opens to maintain his #1 world ranking to confirm his placement in Team CHN (the task of making Team CHN is harder than any other countries) and a major part of LD income is derived from winning Opens (I think LD gets to keep half of his Open winnings, the other half goes to coaches, etc.)...simply my thoughts, LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie
    Hi Cooler, I go for the biggie on the 649 draw than those mini $10 winnings...hahaha! LOL!
    If u read my whole example, gambler 'B' has the best track record and highest earnings than the long shot gambler 'A'. I guess this is not a thread for me to discuss about gambling theory.

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    No lah Man...Xmas and happy new years....
    Later on I'll make foto at tangkas and give you that hendri saputra record....Jan, I'll going to Tangkas and PBSI...

    Fang Kai Hsiang only won 1 IBF Tournament because at time china just join to IBF...

    Tang, Fang and Hou won alots of tournaments at time but at IBF record don't have because at time chine not join IBF yet.

    Garnefo tournament founded by first Indonesia president, Tang the champion... He beat Rudi Hartono I think at semifinal....

    Also some malaya tournament, Tang, Hau and Fang always the champion....

    China join to IBF after the second players so Tang, Hau and Fang already retired. Not lucky for them...

    Hendri Saputra got a few titles but will give later on...because you still no heard of him... so must give actual one I think... Thanks a gain...Happy new year..

    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie
    I thought I have followed this game for a quite a while, myself fast approaching geezer age...hahaha! and I have not heard of this Hendri Saputra fella, did Saugusli make this up just for Xmas fun...LOL!

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    Ok.. You right that.. So you also got experience about that... But That Hendri Saputra, It is give you information as actual one..He beat Yang Yang two times... All Players know about that at time...

    I am interested discuss about the old players and how about different from last one to now... I think now got alots attack players right... since Liem Swie King right?? Called that Modern badminton.... The footwork also different right??

    I have personally watched the great Indonesian players, starting from Ferry Sonneville (not sure about the spelling), Tan Joe Hock, Rudy Hartono (he was 16 when I first saw him play), thru to Lim Swie King, Icuk Sugiato, Alan Budi Kesuma, Ardy Wiranata, Joko Suprianto, to today's Taufik. I am sure Tan Joe Hock was around when you were not. For the life of me, I have not seen your idol play outside Indonesia, let alone an outstanding and great player as you claim.
    Also, the iBF website does not have Hendri Saputra in its Hall of Fame. The IBF's Herbert Scheele Trophy and its Distinguished Service Award also do not have a mention of your idol.
    FYI, Rudy Hartono, Dick Sudirman, Lim Swie King, and Susi Susanti are the only Indonesians in the IBF Hall of Fame, which also includes China's Tang Xianhu and Hou Jiachang. Perhaps leaving out Hendri Saputra was an injustice?
    Even today's leading players Lin Dan and Taufik get beaten by other players. That does not mean they are no good. Yang Yang at his best was also beaten regularly by many players, including Malaysia's Misbun Sidek. So, what does that mean? Remember Rudy Hartono? He was also beaten by other players, but he was still acclaimed as the master.
    You cited old matches from the IBF website. Perhaps you can lead me to it? I do not seem to be able to log in.[/quote]

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    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Smile The Greatness Question

    Well, I'll be damned if I don't put in my view .

    Waving flags for either Taufik Hidayat or Lin Dan doesn't make one of them the better player, much less the best player either now or ever. Their rivalry is far from over. Only their results speak for them... and their results alone will settle the question when they finally bid adieu to the competitive badminton arena.

    Taufik is perhaps the world's most spontaneously innovative badminton singles player today. Unlike the machine-type play adopted by Lin Dan (much like Ivan Lendl's grim-faced, business-like tennis style), Taufik plays a natural game, full of grace, anticipation, freshness and risks. Probably, he remains the only first-rung player today who retains the 'take-risks' 15-point style of play even in the revised, current 'play-safe' 21-point system.

    Taufik's strengths lie primarily in his powerful backhand, his spontaneous placements, his tapped forehand drop shot and tantalising net-play. His weaknesses, if they could be called so, lie is his reluctance to kill from high forehand clears, his impatience with heckling crowds, his less-than-optimum physical stamina and his (crazy) penchant for returning a net dribble with a net dribble, even when the opponent is dangerously close to the net.

    China's coach Li Yongbo, who famously said in Doha (Asian Games, December 2006) that 'Taufik is finished' had to eat his words barely a few hours later after the Indonesian pulled off a seemingly casual win against Lin Dan, his greatest rival and Yongbo's protege.

    In many ways, Taufik's style mirrors the prowling athleticism of one of the greatest players ever to grace the badminton court - Zhao Jianhua. Like Zhao, Taufik looks lazy, moves lazily and wins lazily. But, except when he is annoyed or distracted, Taufik (like Zhao) is anything but lazy.

    Consistency has never been a Taufik merit. And it, perhaps, will never be. To expect this amazingly gifted player to suddenly develop a Lin-Dan-type approach to the game is as good as expecting him to take up cricket or lacrosse.

    The tactician in Taufik is better than the athlete in him. Unlike Lin Dan, Taufik is not a killer, but a cat that loves toying with the intended prey. This is probably why he makes more unforced errors than any other player at his level of ability and skill. This is also why, although he continues to pull off easy wins against the best, he also loses to lower ranked players when he is not completely focused.

    It would be completely facile, by dint of that one game in Doha, to argue either that Lin Dan is finished or that Taufik is the better player. Victories come and go: Peter Gade, at 29, beat home-favourite Lin Dan at the China Open... and Hong Kong's Wang Chen, who won the WS gold at Doha, is pushing 31 . Such wins do not immediately confer upon the player either invincibility ahead or a guaranteed level of superiority in the next face-off.

    Great badminton is all about great players... whether they are terrible, bad, good, better or the best is but a function of a particular day, mood and opponent. To date, there is no player that has not been beaten by another, less-fancied player. Yang Yang, who was World #1, was thrashed by Zhao Jianhua, then just China's #3. So were Liem Swei King and Joko Suprianto. Those legendary victories didn't make Zhao better than Yang or King or Suprianto (in fact, Yang's worldwide tournament record is simply amazing). It only made Zhao a great name, someone capable of cowing the very best on occasion.

    On the face of the results yet, Lin Dan is inarguably the world's top player. Taufik is simply not. But past results are not going to be of any help to either of them when they face each other again. Maybe, just maybe, their rivalry will spur both of them to be even better players. And that would be incredibly sweet for both the game and its adoring fans.

    (You will find some the above at wikipedia/taufik. It's not surprising because, er, I wrote much of that section.)

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    Oldhand, long time no hear. But what a refreshing breath of fresh air. Very interesting opinions, hard to disagree entirely, but quite insightful and, unusual for this thread, a very balanced perspective.

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    Smile Lucky Taneepak

    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    Even today's leading players Lin Dan and Taufik get beaten by other players. That does not mean they are no good. Yang Yang at his best was also beaten regularly by many players, including Malaysia's Misbun Sidek. So, what does that mean? Remember Rudy Hartono? He was also beaten by other players, but he was still acclaimed as the master.
    In fact, I was spurred to contribute my mite by what you posted earlier.
    I wish I had your luck, Taneepak. To have seen Rudy Hartono in action is, to me, the equivalent of having seen squash's Jahangir Khan or boxing's Muhammed Ali or cricket's Don Bradman doing their stuff. But for old film and video recordings, I wouldn't have seen any of the latters' exploits, much less heard of them. As for badminton, the earliest matches I've seen (again, thanks to video) are those of Zhao Jianhua's breathtaking victories against Yang, King and Suprianto in the early 80s.

    Out of curiosity, allow me to ask you this:
    If all the greats you've seen were to be playing the circuit today, who would have been the giant among them? Would Hartono beat Taufik? Would Yang overpower Lin Dan? Would Delfs trounce Gade? How would you rate the skill levels of the greats on an equal footing?

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    Default I would think so as well..

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand
    Well, I'll be damned if I don't put in my view .

    Waving flags for either Taufik Hidayat or Lin Dan doesn't make one of them the better player, much less the best player either now or ever. Their rivalry is far from over. Only their results speak for them... and their results alone will settle the question when they finally bid adieu to the competitive badminton arena.
    yah, same sentiment from me also..it's hard to argue against either one..that's why BOTH are great, at least to me..
    (You will find some the above at wikipedia/taufik. It's not surprising because, er, I wrote much of that section.)
    hehe, yah, that's what i wondered after reading a quarter way of your post. I thought, "Hey, i think i've read this somewhere before"..Nonetheless, appreciate for inputting your opinion and posting those compilation infos for us all(eventhough quipped from another website)..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 12-31-2006 at 02:35 PM.

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