01-25-2007, 05:31 PM #18
Kenneth Jonassen won the singapore open in 2005 =p
Well .. i think we must reduce it to the "3 heavenly kings" .. ( I guess Kwun you also wanted to refer to the HK singer Aaron Kwok, Andy Lau .. etcc ahaha) But here it's quite impossible ..
I also want to add Bao Chunlai because, even though he's "Mr Runner Up" .. being finalist is a very good result and he gave good results this year .. but Lin Dan, Taufik Hidayat and Peter Gade have this "Charisma" that put them in a higher step. I guess LD TH and PG became Badminton Legend but Bao Chunlai isn't (in my opinion .. Please don't misunderstood me I really like Bao Chunlai !I love his style but it's just fact .. at least to me lol)
About Lee Chong Wei he had a good year in 2005 and the beginning of 2006, he's always a top class player but he didn't keep that consistancy.
01-25-2007, 06:36 PM #19
02-02-2007, 08:23 AM #20
I agree that KJ shouldn't be in. And although Chen Jin is young, he already has the skill. As he grows older, he will definitely be more consistent... So i think he should definitely be in.........
02-02-2007, 06:05 PM #21
LCW? Give me a break.
02-04-2007, 01:40 PM #22
chen jin shouldnt be up there yet but very soon he definitly will be up there.Hes ranked no.2 in the world at the moment so he almost there he jst needs the practice to be able to beat lin dan and gade more often.
02-05-2007, 01:48 AM #23
I would think that KJ would me the last era as he will be pahsed out pretty soon. CJ i think he will be the next yang yang..He is so young and he is already world no 2...One thing i really like about him is that he smiles after every match.It does not matter he lose or win.. he will always have a geniuen smile on his face.......He is amazing!!!!
02-20-2007, 02:34 AM #24
Well, actually, I think that Henry Saputra should be in that too.. He was a great plyr, and now is a great coach!! He's beaten Yang Yang quite a bunch of times, and Yang Yang has nvr beaten him.. It is just too bad that he got injuries, and couldn't play anymore!!
And I agree with Syaoran (Tarek), haha, Bao Chunlai is also great.. He's improving now, and has always tried his best... he has improved on his 'concentration', now he can concentrate more, last time.. He could just 'blank out' suddenly in the game.. He really has improved!!
02-21-2007, 01:24 AM #25Originally Posted by kwun
After winning the 1983 World Title Icuk's form plummeted because he was treated like royalty and didn't trained hard enough. He often lost to obscure players such as the later doubles specialist Tian Bing Yi in the early round of All England. Never won against Yang Yang. He was often abused by the Indonesian crowd in Jakarta when he lost to players from other countries to tears. Judging from his resume Icuk wouldn't be classified as a great player in the class of Yang Yang, Zhao JianHua or Morten Frost Hansen.
Last edited by sabathiel; 02-21-2007 at 01:26 AM.
02-21-2007, 03:18 AM #26
It's an interesting topic to talk about the current 4 "Heavenly King" in MS. I guess Kuwn took the concept from the Hong Kong Canton Pop Music where the titles are usually decided by the number of songs that won then awards or top the charts. If we used the same criteria and look at the results of main badminton tournament in 2005/2006, this is what we have in the attachement.
Note: I only included the 5* and 6* events, plus All England and the other major events.
By number of major titles won, the order of merit would be:
(1) LD, clearly miles ahead of the rest with 10 titles out of 27
(2/3) TH and CH, joint second with 4 titles each
(4) LCW, 3 titles
(5/6) PG and LHI, joint 5th position with 2 titles each
(7/8) CJ and BCL with 1 title each
So at the end of 2006, the 4 "Heavenly King" should be LD, TH, CH and LCW.
But since CH has retired, who will fill the 4th spot? Personally I would argue PG would deserve that spot as he has always there or thereabout in major events, although age is catching up with him. Not to mention he just won the MO in January.
For the start of 2007, I would vote for LD, TH, LCW and PG.
Last edited by Linus; 02-21-2007 at 03:22 AM.
02-21-2007, 03:22 AM #27
I would vote for Lin Dan, Lee Chong Wei, Peter Gades and Bao Chunlai.. Taufik is not consistent.. Smtimes he's great, other times he's lousy.. You know what I mean..
02-21-2007, 04:55 AM #28
I was looking at the MS results of the AE (being the most prestigious then) during which periods the players mentioned by Kwun were prominent and the following was the picture:
1982 MORTEN FROST DEN
1983 LUAN JIN CHN
1984 MORTEN FROST DEN
1985 ZHAO JIANHUA CHN
1986 MORTEN FROST DEN
1987 MORTEN FROST DEN
1988 I. FREDERIKSEN DEN
1989 YANG YANG CHN
1990 ZHAO JIANHUA CHN
Sugiarto was nowhere in sight, whilst Frost won 4 times, Zhao twice and the popular Yang, only once. Maybe if we take into account the other less prestigious IBF Grand Prix events, the picture may improve, but I doubt by much.
Morten Frost was by far the most consistent, better than Yang Yang, it would appear. Of course, Frost was playing in more familiar European territory. And if we take into account Zhao's two wins against none from Taufik Hidayat thus far, Zhao appeared to have not only the flair and talent, he also had better consistency. And I would add, greater determination as his second AE win came 5 years after!
It was then a battle for supremacy in MS between Denmark and China and it was Denmark which won 5 titles to 4! Indonesia and Malaysia were not as dominant somehow.
1999 PETER GADE DEN
2000 XIA XUANZE CHN
2001 PULLELA GOPICHAND IND
2002 CHEN HONG CHN
2003 MUHD HAFIZ HASHIM MAS
2004 LIN DAN CHN
2005 CHEN HONG CHN
2006 LIN DAN CHN
Under "This Era" more title holders (6) appeared during the last 8 years than the 5 champions during the 9-year period under "Yesteryear".
But Chen Hong and Lin Dan both won twice. Chen Hong got my vote for being the more determined winner over his younger compatriot, Lin Dan, in 2005. And it is sad that he should retire now when he could be more than a match to any of the top players.
Maybe Taufik's name will be added to the AE honours roll this year to make it 7 different holders and justify "This Era" for men's singles as being more competitive than before. If TH should win, he will certainly hold the prestigious record of being the AE, WC and Olympic champion -one very difficult to be broken thereafter! By all accounts, TH is working very hard to make his dream come true, and if he is as determined as Zhao Jianhao, TH deserved to be the greatest!
What more, with the new 21-point rally scoring system, more upsets are in the offing as when WR1, Lin Dan was abruptly disposed of by South Korea's Park Sung Hwan in the first Super Series, the Malaysia Open!
Last edited by Loh; 02-21-2007 at 05:09 AM.
02-21-2007, 07:39 AM #29
Whilst Yang Yang has only won All England once this is compensated by winning the prestigious World Championships two times consecutively (the only player to date who has achieved this) in 1987 and 1989. Zhao Jian Hua also has won the World Championships in 1991 and won All England twice in 1985 and 1990. The 5 years gap of Zhao Jianhua's All England victories is due to the fact that he wasn't playing international badminton for a few years for reasons only the Chinese badminton establishment knew (there was a rumour saying that he tried to defect to the West or that he was ill). Morten Frost Hansen never won the World Championships but was runner-up twice in 1985 and 1987. Icuk Sugiarto apart from losing in the first round of All England after winning the 1983 World Championships to Tian Bing Yi (later Li Yong Bo's doubles partner) has never made it to the All England finals. I can't even recall Icuk winning lesser prestigious tournaments after his triumph at the 1983 World Championships in Copenhagen. I am also almost sure that Icuk has never won against his nemesis Yang Yang as Icuk has problems playing against left handers. Icuk's other notable achievement is making the semifinals of the World Championships in 1987 and 1989.
Last edited by sabathiel; 02-21-2007 at 07:51 AM.
02-21-2007, 09:40 PM #30
Was Yang Yang the greatest player during his era?
Following Sabathiel's elaboration on Yang Yang, I searched the web and found a detailed writeup on his achievements in the Yang Yang UK badminton product website:
"The former World Badminton Champion. He is the only badminton player in the world that has won all the major tournament titles which include All England Championships, World Championship, Grand Prix Final, World Cup Championship, and Olympic Champion. He has a record of winning more than 23 international championships.
A former Malaysia National Badminton Coach who helped the nation to win the Thomas Cup in 1992 after 25 years.
Nowadays Yang Yang focuses on both his own range of branded products and coaching badminton. His enthusiasm for game is still as strong as ever."
His titles include.....
1984 CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
1985 HONG KONG OPEN HONG KONG
1986 THOMAS CUP INDONESIA
1986 WORLD GRAND PRIX FINALS MALAYSIA
1986 JAPAN OPEN JAPAN
1986 HONG KONG OPEN HONG KONG
1986 CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
1987 WORLD BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
1987 SWEDEN OPEN SWEDEN
1987 MALAYSIA OPEN MALAYSIA
1987 INDONESIA OPEN INDONESIA
1987 CHINA NATIONAL GAMES CHINA
1988 OLYMPIC DEMONSTRATION KOREA
1988 THOMAS CUP MALAYSIA
1988 WORLD CUP THAILAND
1988 SINGAPORE OPEN SINGAPORE
1989 AUSTRALIA 200 ANNIVERSARY INVITATION AUSTRALIA
1989 WORLD BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS INDONESIA
1989 WORLD CUP CHINA
1989 ALL ENGLAND CHAMPIONSHIPS U.K.
1989 JAPAN OPEN JAPAN
1990 THOMAS CUP JAPAN
1990 ASIAN GAMES CHINA
Indeed Yang Yang would have been the greatest among his peers if we judged him for winning the three most prestigious titles during his time: AE, WC and Olympics (even though it was a Demonstration Sport in the 1988 Seoul Olympics. Badminton only officially became a medal sport in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics and the famous Indonesian couple, Alan Budikusuma and Susi Susanti won the MS and WS gold medal respectively.)
So now we have to await Taufik Hidayat's turn to emulate Yang Yang if the former should win the forthcoming AE at Birmingham.
02-21-2007, 10:22 PM #31
Don't forget Lin Dan would also emulate Yang Yang if Lin Dan wins the Olympic gold in Beijing 2008 as Lin Dan would have won All England, World Championships and Olympic Gold. I suppose with All England 07 is just around the corner we would have to wait and see if Taufik can capture this year's title. Taufik already stated that he would retire after Beijing 2008 but I wonder if he would carry on if by then he still hasn't won All England yet. Taufik is still young enough to play another 4 years after Beijing 2008.
I wonder if winning All England, World Championships and Olympic Gold during one's career is a measure of greatness if Yang Yang, Taufik and Lin Dan have achieved that? Maybe if it becomes a common achievement we have to wait for ground breaking All England titles such as done by Rudy Hartono, 7 consecutive titles and 8 overall titles or winning the World Championships 3 times in a row (breaking Yang Yang's record of 2 consecutive World titles). The difference is now the World Championships is held every year instead of every 2 years during Yang Yang's time.
02-21-2007, 11:03 PM #32
IMO, each to their own "greatness"...
...true, the past great players have their own achievements and greatness as we can't take anything away from them...
..but for one Taufik, *IF* he wins the upcoming AE, he'll probably go down in badminton history as arguably the *only* shuttler(MS) to ever win, not only the AE, WC & OG titles but winning the AG(Asian Games), not only once but back-to-back, as well(eventhough some would argue that the AG title doesn't really count much and its not a IBF/BWF sanctioned event; though another CHN shuttler also won it back to back)..
02-21-2007, 11:14 PM #33
In my opinion failing to win one of the major titles (OG, WC, AE) doesn't equate he/she is not a great player. As the saying goes 'to be in the right place at the right time' also applies to a player. To be in the right frame in all aspects in any tournaments is so crucial.
The recent MO in Kl is a fine example. TH & LD are both great players but they were drawn to meet in the 1st round...and the result could have gone in TH's favour. And then again, LD failed in the 2nd round but bounce back at the KO.
But if statistics is to be a benchmark, Yang Yang's consistency in winning tournaments overshadows Zhao JH's pure talent and skills. I don't believe that any professional badminton player would in his right sense of mind only target certain tournaments in his career & forego trying to do well in general.
02-21-2007, 11:25 PM #34
Yes indeed if a player can win the AE, WC and Olympics titles during his career, and if we have to compare who is the greatest, it will be the number of times that he has won in these three events.
As we have debated before whether Taufik Hidayat is greater than Rudy Hartono, I agree that Rudy's consistent record at the AE has no peer, the AE then being the unofficial world championships as there was no World Championships nor the Olympics for badminton as we now have.
Rudy's AE record:
1965 E. KOPS DEN
1966 TAN AIK HUANG MAS
1967 E. KOPS DEN
1968 RUDY HARTONO INA
1969 RUDY HARTONO INA
1970 RUDY HARTONO INA
1971 RUDY HARTONO INA
1972 RUDY HARTONO INA
1973 RUDY HARTONO INA
1974 RUDY HARTONO INA
1975 S. PRI DEN
1976 RUDY HARTONO INA
1977 FLEMMING DELFS DEN
1978 LIEM SWIE KING INA
1979 LIEM SWIE KING INA
1980 PRAKASH PADUKONE IND
1981 LIEM SWIE KING INA
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