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  1. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.
    well, maybe retirement is just a way to get out of pbsi Look at tony G and candra W. Also, TH might get an appointment into INA sport council.

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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Some more comments...

    (sorry all if this discussion is gettin a bit off)..
    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    Those players who are playing competititevely past their primes still are contributing to their sport or even the national team's main goal because they are still competitive. Off course if they are no longer competitive then there is no point to play or maybe they are not working hard enough. On the issue of money, they would not be making money unless they are still good and competitive so good on them for making money because that means they are still competitive and contributing to the sport.
    i can concur abt what i've highlighted in bold..but the question is then, how long should or what is the best time to retire if those veteran players keep playing??..should they keep playing til their bodies totally fall apart??..
    Abt veteran players coming back and playing again for monies, i was referring to other sports..
    I believe that the youngsters must work hard and earn their spot in the national team and not expect the oldies to simply give a spot for these youngsters in the team. If the youngsters are good enough on their own merit than good on them but they should not have a free ride or the oldies make it easy for them. If the oldies cannot compete with the youngsters than it is time for these oldies to quit because what is the point of playing if you are not doing well. It is a waste of time and expenses! So true competition is a good thing between the oldies and the youngsters. This is what is good for the sport.

    Jens Eriksen is still doing well and with his partner is still the top men's doubles pair in Denmark. Why should he quit simply to let the youngsters get more exposure? Is this in the interests of badminton in general or more specifically for Danish badminton? By allowing the youngsters play and compete against these top older players the youngsters would be learning a lot and push themselves to become better and better. Rudy Hartono at 32 was called to be a member of the Indonesian Thomas Cup because there are no youngster good enough to fill the spot. Is it in the national team's interest to fill the spot with an inexperienced youngster who is still not good enough to play at the highest level? Surely training against the maestro will give the youngsters invaluable badminton lessons for the youngsters. The exposure for the youngsters can come from being send to lower level tournaments to prove themselves. What is the point of sending these youngsters to high level tournaments if they can't even do well in lower grade tournaments. A waste of money and probably affect the confidence of these youngsters.
    ..going off topic: hmmm, as an example, don't you see the similarities of your notion to why many junior and young players that were recruited by PBSI but then left/quit Pelatnas??..Some left because they just couldn't take the reality of the training and some left because they know they wouldn't have any chances to compete, esp. knowing well that PBSI will keep sending the same old veterans...See also the KOR squad in last yr's TC/UC, where they fielded mostly young and rather inexperienced players...
    In regard to Tony Gunawan I know that in order to play in the Olympics, Thomas Cup or Sudirman Cup he has to be an Indonesian citizen which he is but I am not sure if it is a requirement for him to be in the national team or reside in Indonesia. I don't think it is necessary for Tony to be a resident in Indonesia or be at Pelatnas. That is why PBSI is trying to get him to play for Indonesian again. Tony is happy in the USA with his wife and has a good job there. I doubt very much that he would like to come back and live in Indonesia again simply to play badminton for Indonesia (which I think is unnecessary anyway). It is metioned in one article that PBSI want Tony and the other older players to at least be sparring partners for the younger players which means it is not in PBSI's interests to see these older players quit for the reasons I already mentioned.
    ..going off topic: hmm, if i'm not mistaken(someone please do correct me), one has to be part of the national team to compete in major team events..I don't think players like Sigit or Eng Hian, who are playing individually at their respected clubs would be eligible to partake in any national team competition. Only if they rejoin the national team/Pelatnas. ABt Tony and other veterans being sparring partners, i think that's a different matter.
    I respect the players decision to retire but that is different from respecting a players decision to retire early because they are still on top and doesn't have the courage to continue playing because they are scared their record will be marred if they continue playing. Retire on top at a reasonably old age yes but not at a relatively early age. The sport and the fans deserve more than that because the player's true potential is not realized and the sport and fans are deprived of years of potentially good/great badminton. Would you be annoyed at least a bit if Roger Federer who is touted as the greatest tennis player ever retires now because he is still on top now because he thinks he has achieved enough. What good is that to the fans or sport? Imagine what he could have achieved if he continues playing and what kind of records he could break? Respect their decisions to quit maybe but to like silly decisions like that definetely not. These great players owe it to the sport and fans who have made them great to give the sport and fans their best effort in playing the sport. It is us who made them great by giving them the adulation and accolades and to a lesser extent the monies that they earn from supporting the sport. Without us the fans where would they be?
    ..going off topic: hmm, in reference to what i've highlighted in bold, any specific example(s) of (well-known)players that you think might've done so??
    In the example of Federer, personally, i wouldn't want to see him retire now(of course that's coming out of my own selfish motive), esp. when he's still dominating like what he has done. But, on the other hand, i don't want to see him keep playing until he's in the mid 30s or late 30s or even 40s. Personally, i would rather see him retire "on top", whenever that may be, even if he still has a few yrs left in him. Just a small example, remember Jordan?? remember his attempt of coming back to try & play pro basketball again?? do you remember what happened??..
    Don't you think you admire players like Peter Gade who in his 30s can still manage to win the Malaysian Open because of his talents and sheer determination to succeed at an older age? Off course players like Rexy or Rudy are no longer competitive at their age but if they were wouldn't you like to watch them? Wouldn't they like to keep on playing and contribute to the sport if they think they still can win? That is why they are either coaches or administrators of the sport because they love the game so much they want to participate in the sport in whatever capacity they can. Trust me if Rexy can still win All England he probably would still like to play competitevely at an international level.
    ..hmm, what i've highlighted, i think that's the key..If for just for the sheer of competing and playing, i'm sure we all would see many old pros still playing nowadays: the KimDongMoons, Rexys, Park Joo Bongs even the Rudy Hartonos of the world etc. But then what happen to the youngsters?? Where would they fit in(players like KKK/TBH)?? How would they get their exposures and chances if all they saw were the veterans being sent to major tourneys. And I thought all those olden great players were given the same chances when they were young??..
    As tough as it is, there comes a time where it's just time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to the new generation of players.. ..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-23-2007 at 08:00 PM.

  3. #71
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    Default Hmmm...i think one can also say..

    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.
    ...those people might instead "respect" the sport so well that they've decided to retire earlier..
    ...so, does that mean players that retired earlier than they should, ie. Mia, KDM, RKM, HTK don't love the sport?? What does retiring early gotta do with someone "loving" the sport or not?
    As far as i know, if a person "loves" the sport, s/he would give it his/her all effort whilst they're still playing...Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts..

    I'll say this: the only person/individual who truly knows when is the right time for him/her to quit/retire/hang it up is none other but that particular athlete him/herself. And we, as fans, should not nor have the right to put a label on them as "selfish, full of him/herself, non-sportsmanlike or what-have yous" on their decision(s).
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-23-2007 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    well, maybe retirement is just a way to get out of pbsi Look at tony G and candra W. Also, TH might get an appointment into INA sport council.
    Yeah, maybe but as other Indonesian players have proven and done it is possible to get out of PBSI and still play international badminton. So why retire when you still have it in you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    ...those people might instead "respect" the sport so well that they've decided to retire earlier..
    ...so, does that mean players that retired earlier than they should, ie. Mia, KDM, RKM, HTK don't love the sport?? What does retiring early gotta do with someone "loving" the sport or not?
    As far as i know, if a person "loves" the sport, s/he would give it his/her all effort whilst they're still playing...Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts..

    I'll say this: the only person/individual who truly knows when is the right time for him/her to quit/retire/hang it up is none other but that particular athlete him/herself. And we, as fans, should not nor have the right to put a label on them as "selfish, full of him/herself, non-sportsmanlike or what-have yous" on their decision(s).
    If someone truly loves badminton then that someone would want to play it at whatever level if he/she is still capable of playing. If that someone still can win tournaments and love the sport then that person would still want to play internationally. Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts mean putting the effort into training and playing competitions. This is the proof of loving the sport. Mia devoting her life to her husband's career simply means that she doesn't love badminton enough to continue playing because if she did she wouldn't quit. I am not saying that Mia should love badminton more than her husband but rather am saying that she doesn't love badminton enough.

    Off course I have the right to put a label on them with whatever I want to say about them. Are you saying it is illegal to do so or I have to curb my right to freedom of speech or freedom of opinion to say what I think?

    I know the decision to retire is that particular athlete's decision but surely others like administrators, relatives/friends/loved ones of the players, coaches etc can exert some pressure and influence to change the minds of those players ad to a lesser extent opinions of fans like us in forums like these if the players read them. A wise person will take into consideration other factors in retiring other than the simple desire to retire for whatever reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    (sorry all if this discussion is gettin a bit off)..

    i can concur abt what i've highlighted in bold..but the question is then, how long should or what is the best time to retire if those veteran players keep playing??..should they keep playing til their bodies totally fall apart??..
    Abt veteran players coming back and playing again for monies, i was referring to other sports..

    ..going off topic: hmmm, as an example, don't you see the similarities of your notion to why many junior and young players that were recruited by PBSI but then left/quit Pelatnas??..Some left because they just couldn't take the reality of the training and some left because they know they wouldn't have any chances to compete, esp. knowing well that PBSI will keep sending the same old veterans...See also the KOR squad in last yr's TC/UC, where they fielded mostly young and rather inexperienced players...

    ..going off topic: hmm, if i'm not mistaken(someone please do correct me), one has to be part of the national team to compete in major team events..I don't think players like Sigit or Eng Hian, who are playing individually at their respected clubs would be eligible to partake in any national team competition. Only if they rejoin the national team/Pelatnas. ABt Tony and other veterans being sparring partners, i think that's a different matter.

    ..going off topic: hmm, in reference to what i've highlighted in bold, any specific example(s) of (well-known)players that you think might've done so??
    In the example of Federer, personally, i wouldn't want to see him retire now(of course that's coming out of my own selfish motive), esp. when he's still dominating like what he has done. But, on the other hand, i don't want to see him keep playing until he's in the mid 30s or late 30s or even 40s. Personally, i would rather see him retire "on top", whenever that may be, even if he still has a few yrs left in him. Just a small example, remember Jordan?? remember his attempt of coming back to try & play pro basketball again?? do you remember what happened??..

    ..hmm, what i've highlighted, i think that's the key..If for just for the sheer of competing and playing, i'm sure we all would see many old pros still playing nowadays: the KimDongMoons, Rexys, Park Joo Bongs even the Rudy Hartonos of the world etc. But then what happen to the youngsters?? Where would they fit in(players like KKK/TBH)?? How would they get their exposures and chances if all they saw were the veterans being sent to major tourneys. And I thought all those olden great players were given the same chances when they were young??..
    As tough as it is, there comes a time where it's just time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to the new generation of players.. ..
    To answer your question highlighted in bold which I have already stated in my previous post is they should keep on playing so long as they are still competitive and still can produce good results or win titles. Off course they should quit if they think they no longer can produce good results or win titles or think their bodies are "falling apart".

    This is why Andre Agassi played until his mid 30s. You can't say that Andre was a disgrace to tennis when he retired but rather quit at a reasonable level, well maybe not while he is on top. Pete Sampras on the other hand quit after winning his 14th Grand Slam title (the US Open) and decided that that was enough without wanting to try to win his 15th Grand Slam title which he could have done. Having said that Pete Sampras was already old enough to retire but the fans would be curious if he still have it in him to win another Grand Slam.

    I have already stated this that youngsters must earn their spot in the national team or being sent to A grade tournaments by producing results in training. The world doesn't owe them a living by pressuring the veterans to give up their spot for them. Perform and show us the results and they are fine. This is what fair competition is all about. The badminton world is entitled to watch the best compete in tournaments not second best simply because they are talented youngsters. In any event it is still possible to sent the veterans and young ones to tournaments and as long the young ones produce the results than there is no problem. I am totally against making it easy for the young ones at the expense of the in form veterans. This is totally unfair.

    If the young ones leave the national squad because they can't hack the training or because they don't have the chance to compete on the basis PBSI keep sending the veterans away to tournaments then they should not be in the national team for lacking the mental strength to be athletes. Being in the national team means you must be able to endure the pressure of training, accept the results that you produce at training as a basis for who gets sent away to A grade tournaments and be content with going to lesser prestigious tournaments and hopefully produce good results there. If they can't stand the heat then they should get out of the kitchen. They must earn their spots not be given to them on a silver plate.

    Korea fielding young and inexperienced players at TC/UC maybe means that these players are doing well in training by beating or at least matching the veterans. So this might be the right and fair thing to do.

    On your question that does a player would have to be in the national team to partake in national team competition internationally I think the answer is "no". This is because PBSI is trying to get Tony Gunawan to play for Indonesia again in the Sudirman Cup without trying to get him to live in Indonesia again so he doesn't have to be in Pelatnas. There is no talk of Tony playing in the national team as we know that Tony is very happy living in the US. Even if there is a rule that requires Tony to play in Pelatnas this would be a PBSI rule not a IBF rule and the Indonesians can easily waive this rule to let Tony play TC, SC or Olympics.

    The difference between the players of old and the newer players is that the old players when they were young get sent to play overseas because they are good enough to play by beating the players in national training. Rudy Hartono at 31 played and won the 1980 World Championships beating the much younger Liem Swie King. Are we to say that Rudy shouldn't have played then to let Swie King to win the title or to let some obscure young player to play in the tournament at the expense of the veteran Rudy Hartono? This is unfair and silly as proven by Rudy winning the title.

    Players like KKK/TBH deserves to play internationally because no doubt they are producing results internationally and domestically. I am fine with this. Indeed this is what should happen. The best must be the one selected. Have you ever heard of new and young players from Denmark to take the place of Peter Gade, Kenneth Jonassen or Jens Eriksen/MLH? No! This is because they are the best in Denmark and rightly and fairly should be the ones representing Denmark. Only authoritarian and totalitarian regimes like Indonesia or China would sacrifice individual rights and the principle of fairness to the individual by letting youngsters who are not producing results at the expense of veterans who are producing results.

    It is totally and fundamentally unfair against the principle of equal rights that one should say that there comes a time that where it's time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to new generation of players. And this came from someone who is living in the US a place where individual rights are cherished and held sacred.
    Last edited by sabathiel; 02-23-2007 at 10:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Just a small example, remember Jordan?? remember his attempt of coming back to try & play pro basketball again?? do you remember what happened??..
    What about fairy tale success stories like Martina Navratilova who still manage to win doubles grand slams in her late 40s and won her last grand slam at 50 (2006 US Open mixed doubles with Bob Bryan) as well as the boxer George Foreman who made a comeback in his late 30s and manage to become heavyweight World Champion at 45? Now the ex heavyweight World Champion from Britain Lennox Lewis is talking of making a come back at 41.
    Last edited by sabathiel; 02-24-2007 at 12:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    Yeah, maybe but as other Indonesian players have proven and done it is possible to get out of PBSI and still play international badminton. So why retire when you still have it in you.
    that's what i meant, retirement is just an official way to quit pbsi with honor

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    Default Off topic-A few more comment & i think the bottomline is priorities(long)..

    hmm, it seems like we're the only 2 members still discussing and keeping this thread alive, well sort of...btw, thanks for responding to them..
    on that note, since these discussions are also veering a bit off topic(sorry again to kwun and others who are reading), i'll try to make some brief comments on some of your responses..
    I think the bottomline on a player decision on what to do with his/her career is priorities..
    If someone truly loves badminton then that someone would want to play it at whatever level if he/she is still capable of playing. If that someone still can win tournaments and love the sport then that person would still want to play internationally. Doing so in their maximum capabilities and efforts mean putting the effort into training and playing competitions. This is the proof of loving the sport. Mia devoting her life to her husband's career simply means that she doesn't love badminton enough to continue playing because if she did she wouldn't quit. I am not saying that Mia should love badminton more than her husband but rather am saying that she doesn't love badminton enough.
    ..hmm, it's true but i think this is a case between "loving the sport" and priorities..In Mia's case, i'm sure her priority now is to help & support her hubby. Thus her decision has got to do with her priorities more so than "she doesn't love badminton enough"..Do you or we know, for sure, if she indeed "doesn't love badminton enough"??..I, for one, hope her "love for badminton" hasn't ceased..
    Off course I have the right to put a label on them with whatever I want to say about them. Are you saying it is illegal to do so or I have to curb my right to freedom of speech or freedom of opinion to say what I think?
    ..i can understand & no, i never said it's illegal for you or anyone to make such claim..but hmm, let's hope none of those badminton players who visit BCF will read what you've written in noting that "Quitting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"..
    I know the decision to retire is that particular athlete's decision but surely others like administrators, relatives/friends/loved ones of the players, coaches etc can exert some pressure and influence to change the minds of those players ad to a lesser extent opinions of fans like us in forums like these if the players read them. A wise person will take into consideration other factors in retiring other than the simple desire to retire for whatever reason.
    ..well, exactly and again let's hope those pro players don't read what you've written..Btw, i still haven't seen any examples of players that you noted earlier, and i quote, "I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport."..If you do give us those examples, how sure are you abt what their main motives behind their decisions??..(we're waiting with baited breath)..
    To answer your question highlighted in bold which I have already stated in my previous post is they should keep on playing so long as they are still competitive and still can produce good results or win titles. Off course they should quit if they think they no longer can produce good results or win titles or think their bodies are "falling apart".
    ..so, what if they want to quite early or "on top of their game", for whatever reason(s)?? Are we here to label them as "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..Isn't that their own choice all along??..
    This is why Andre Agassi played until his mid 30s. You can't say that Andre was a disgrace to tennis when he retired but rather quit at a reasonable level, well maybe not while he is on top. Pete Sampras on the other hand quit after winning his 14th Grand Slam title (the US Open) and decided that that was enough without wanting to try to win his 15th Grand Slam title which he could have done. Having said that Pete Sampras was already old enough to retire but the fans would be curious if he still have it in
    him to win another Grand Slam.
    ..hmm, good examples..Although i think if one keeps on playing but can't win anymore titles, that's also a disgrace/embarrassment..Abt your example of Sampras, that's a good one since he was one who retired at the "top of his game". Why would you say Sampras was old enough to retire but not Agassi??..Would you label Sampras as someone who is "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..
    I have already stated this that youngsters must earn their spot in the national team or being sent to A grade tournaments by producing results in training. The world doesn't owe them a living by pressuring the veterans to give up their spot for them. Perform and show us the results and they are fine. This is what fair competition is all about. The badminton world is entitled to watch the best compete in tournaments not second best simply because they are talented youngsters. In any event it is still possible to sent the veterans and young ones to tournaments and as long the young ones produce the results than there is no problem. I am totally against making it easy for the young ones at the expense of the in form veterans. This is totally unfair.
    ..sure, that's reasonable..i and i'm sure most of the BCers have the same thinking as well..
    Korea fielding young and inexperienced players at TC/UC maybe means that these players are doing well in training by beating or at least matching the veterans. So this might be the right and fair thing to do.
    ..veterans?? what veterans?? i thought LeeDongSoo, YooYongSung, HaTaeKwon & KimDongMoon, RaKyungMin(all roughly the same ages as Tony G.) had already retired??..Don't you think those KOR players could have stayed and keep on playing, just like their Danish counterparts or Tony G. or LeeWanWah or ChoongTanFook?? If so, then why did they quit/retire early??..Couldn't the KOR National team coaches asked them to stay and play for them??..
    On your question that does a player would have to be in the national team to partake in national team competition internationally I think the answer is "no". This is because PBSI is trying to get Tony Gunawan to play for Indonesia again in the Sudirman Cup without trying to get him to live in Indonesia again so he doesn't have to be in Pelatnas. There is no talk of Tony playing in the national team as we know that Tony is very happy living in the US. Even if there is a rule that requires Tony to play in Pelatnas this would be a PBSI rule not a IBF rule and the Indonesians can easily waive this rule to let Tony play TC, SC or Olympics.
    ..on the statement i've highlighted in bold, is that taken from IBF/BWF rule book??..Maybe other BCF members can guide us to that rule..
    The difference between the players of old and the newer players is that the old players when they were young get sent to play overseas because they are good enough to play by beating the players in national training. Rudy Hartono at 31 played and won the 1980 World Championships beating the much younger Liem Swie King. Are we to say that Rudy shouldn't have played then to let Swie King to win the title or to let some obscure young player to play in the tournament at the expense of the veteran Rudy Hartono? This is unfair and silly as proven by Rudy winning the title.
    ..on what i've highlighted in bold, isn't that what's happening nowadays??..
    Players like KKK/TBH deserves to play internationally because no doubt they are producing results internationally and domestically. I am fine with this. Indeed this is what should happen. The best must be the one selected. Have you ever heard of new and young players from Denmark to take the place of Peter Gade, Kenneth Jonassen or Jens Eriksen/MLH? No! This is because they are the best in Denmark and rightly and fairly should be the ones representing Denmark. Only authoritarian and totalitarian regimes like Indonesia or China would sacrifice individual rights and the principle of fairness to the individual by letting youngsters who are not producing results at the expense of veterans who are producing results.
    ..i can somewhat concur & i know this is off topic, but in regards to the Danish team, actually there have been discussions in here on the reason of why they're not able to produce young talents unlike CHN & INA. With the most common answer of because of their lack of talent pools..
    It is totally and fundamentally unfair against the principle of equal rights that one should say that there comes a time that where it's time to move on for the old/veteran players and give way to new generation of players. And this came from someone who is living in the US a place where individual rights are cherished and held sacred.
    ..off topic-Yes, it's true individual rights are cherished and held sacred in the U.S.(i'm glad you are aware of that) Sure why not and i'm not discouraging that. But in professional sports, let's be realistic and pull out our common sense. I was referring in the context of whether i want to see, say, a 50+ yrs. Jimmy Connnors slug it out with say James Blake..Or you wouldn't expect or even want to see a 50+ Rudy Hartono trot out onto the court & compete against the likes of LinDan or Taufik, would you??..
    What about fairy tale success stories like Martina Navratilova who still manage to win doubles grand slams in her late 40s and won her last grand slam at 50 (2006 US Open mixed doubles with Bob Bryan) as well as the boxer George Foreman who made a comeback in his late 30s and manage to become heavyweight World Champion at 45? Now the ex heavyweight World Champion from Britain Lennox Lewis is talking of making a come back at 41.
    Sure, i can acknowledge those examples. But for every happy-go-lucky fairytale success stories, there are also true disgraceful/embarrassing moments-see Jordan, Ben Johnson's attempt in 1992??, Evander Holyfield & Muhammad Ali's comeback which resulted in a TKO and countless others..Moments which you, I and all fans would just want to say 'why can't he just stay retired and save himself and use from seeing another embarrassing moment??"..Reality is, those kinds of fairytale comeback stories are few and far between. Btw, just curious, why haven't there been any stories of professional athletes coming out of their retirements, after yrs of inactivities, in IBF's/BWF's history??..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-24-2007 at 05:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.
    Hahahaha... mate...
    You think that playing badminton is the only thing to promote the badminton...
    that's childish...
    Many people who can not play badminton even the tournaments (or high level) is still great accomplishment for us.. since they tried to promote the badminton to the world.

    Look many people who has retired in badminton stage's, they still do the best that they can to promote badminton.. here even in Oz (some ex chinese players or even Oz people themeself..) which could be that you playing with or been training with.

    wizzy

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzy
    Hahahaha... mate...
    You think that playing badminton is the only thing to promote the badminton...
    that's childish...
    Many people who can not play badminton even the tournaments (or high level) is still great accomplishment for us.. since they tried to promote the badminton to the world.

    Look many people who has retired in badminton stage's, they still do the best that they can to promote badminton.. here even in Oz (some ex chinese players or even Oz people themeself..) which could be that you playing with or been training with.

    wizzy
    People who can't play badminton at high level tournaments can promote the sports to the world????? C'mon, people like you and me can make badminton more popular in the world? In your suburb maybe but not in the world. It is high level players who make the game a joy to watch who are the ones capable of making badminton more popular to the world. Tell me how people who are not famous for playing badminton at high level tournaments can make the game known to the world.

    The answer is that people like Taufik and Lin Dan makes the game more exciting to watch and promotes badminton as a sport to the world. If there are no great players to watch in tournaments then the game becomes boring which makes badminton less popular. Famous and great players have greater influence to promote the sport around the world. If nobody plays badminton then how can badminton be popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    hmm, it seems like we're the only 2 members still discussing and keeping this thread alive, well sort of...btw, thanks for responding to them..
    on that note, since these discussions are also veering a bit off topic(sorry again to kwun and others who are reading), i'll try to make some brief comments on some of your responses..
    I think the bottomline on a player decision on what to do with his/her career is priorities..

    ..hmm, it's true but i think this is a case between "loving the sport" and priorities..In Mia's case, i'm sure her priority now is to help & support her hubby. Thus her decision has got to do with her priorities more so than "she doesn't love badminton enough"..Do you or we know, for sure, if she indeed "doesn't love badminton enough"??..I, for one, hope her "love for badminton" hasn't ceased..
    ..i can understand & no, i never said it's illegal for you or anyone to make such claim..but hmm, let's hope none of those badminton players who visit BCF will read what you've written in noting that "Quitting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"..

    ..well, exactly and again let's hope those pro players don't read what you've written..Btw, i still haven't seen any examples of players that you noted earlier, and i quote, "I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport."..If you do give us those examples, how sure are you abt what their main motives behind their decisions??..(we're waiting with baited breath)..

    ..so, what if they want to quite early or "on top of their game", for whatever reason(s)?? Are we here to label them as "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..Isn't that their own choice all along??..

    ..hmm, good examples..Although i think if one keeps on playing but can't win anymore titles, that's also a disgrace/embarrassment..Abt your example of Sampras, that's a good one since he was one who retired at the "top of his game". Why would you say Sampras was old enough to retire but not Agassi??..Would you label Sampras as someone who is "full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough"??..

    ..sure, that's reasonable..i and i'm sure most of the BCers have the same thinking as well..

    ..veterans?? what veterans?? i thought LeeDongSoo, YooYongSung, HaTaeKwon & KimDongMoon, RaKyungMin(all roughly the same ages as Tony G.) had already retired??..Don't you think those KOR players could have stayed and keep on playing, just like their Danish counterparts or Tony G. or LeeWanWah or ChoongTanFook?? If so, then why did they quit/retire early??..Couldn't the KOR National team coaches asked them to stay and play for them??..

    ..on the statement i've highlighted in bold, is that taken from IBF/BWF rule book??..Maybe other BCF members can guide us to that rule..

    ..on what i've highlighted in bold, isn't that what's happening nowadays??..

    ..i can somewhat concur & i know this is off topic, but in regards to the Danish team, actually there have been discussions in here on the reason of why they're not able to produce young talents unlike CHN & INA. With the most common answer of because of their lack of talent pools..

    ..off topic-Yes, it's true individual rights are cherished and held sacred in the U.S.(i'm glad you are aware of that) Sure why not and i'm not discouraging that. But in professional sports, let's be realistic and pull out our common sense. I was referring in the context of whether i want to see, say, a 50+ yrs. Jimmy Connnors slug it out with say James Blake..Or you wouldn't expect or even want to see a 50+ Rudy Hartono trot out onto the court & compete against the likes of LinDan or Taufik, would you??..

    Sure, i can acknowledge those examples. But for every happy-go-lucky fairytale success stories, there are also true disgraceful/embarrassing moments-see Jordan, Ben Johnson's attempt in 1992??, Evander Holyfield & Muhammad Ali's comeback which resulted in a TKO and countless others..Moments which you, I and all fans would just want to say 'why can't he just stay retired and save himself and use from seeing another embarrassing moment??"..Reality is, those kinds of fairytale comeback stories are few and far between. Btw, just curious, why haven't there been any stories of professional athletes coming out of their retirements, after yrs of inactivities, in IBF's/BWF's history??..
    You are right about the issue of priority but if one's priority is something other than badminton than that person loves that other priority more than badminton. So badminton is loved less. If one manages his/her time efficiently one can keep on playing badminton while at the same time gives equal commitment to for example family affairs. I don't know for sure what is in Mia's mind but it is only fair to say that I speculate that Mia's passion for competing in international tournaments is no longer as strong as it used to be because if it was she would not have quit. It is thus fair to assume that her love and passion for badminton is no longer as strong as it used to be.

    I know you never said that it is illegal for me to express my opinion but my comments were more tongue in cheek rather than literally serious. My serious point is that you are wrong to say that I have no right to put a label on people. It is my absolute democratic right living in a free country to express my opinion and speak out on the matter. You might not like it and those players might not like it but I have the right to present my opinion. By the way those players who are affected by what I say are old and mature enough to read what I say and are not so sensitive as to be mentally affected by my comments. They are adults! So don't be too concerned about them being emotionally affected. I am sure the press and society are far more ruthless in making comments about them at various occasions.

    Since you insist of an example I will name Taufik Hidayat as a player in concerned. Taufik last year spoke about achieving enough and give the impression that by winning the Olympic gold and the World Championships is a great achievement since no male singles player has done so. He talked of retiring prematurely because he has felt that he has done enough. He did mention that All England is the next title that he is eyeing and he would feel completely satisfied if he managed to win this title as he would be the first player to hold AE, Olympic Gold and the World Championships. My response to this on this forum against Taufik's fan is that this shows that Taufik is complacent on his achievements and that to be truly judged as the greatest one need to be dominant like Rudy Hartono for nearly a decade by winning AE 8 times. I think Taufik is full of himself judging by his attitude and comments that he make in interviews. Taufik is nowhere near as great as Rudy Hartono judging bis his achievements and yet he thinks he has done enough to be placed on the list of all time greats. I tell you that he is not even near to being on that list and if he really want to be regarded as such must continue playing and achieve a lot more. Another example is Bjorn Borg who prematurely retire after winning 5 consecutive Wimbledon titles but I know little of Bjorn Borg to label him as full of himself.

    I know I am not a mind reader but we must be fair and say that when it comes to motives we can only speculate from the external factors which would be the evidence pointing at one's motive.

    I never advocated for older players to keep on playing to the point of being a disgrace or embarassment to the sport. What I have been pushing is to play until a reasonable age where one is confident of being competitive and producing results by winning titles. My benchmark was at least 30 where it is reasonably held by badminton experts to be the age where one's form starts to decline with exceptions of doubles and some great singles players. The players themselves would be in the position to judge whether they are still competitive and able to produce results judging from training and results in tournaments as well as the capacity to know one's true form. It is retiring early for reasons that one thinks he/she has achieved enough which is my problem.

    I have no problems with Agassi retiring since he was in his mid 30s when he retired. As for Sampras I don't know enough of him to label him full of himself but rather was slightly dissapointed to see him retire after winning US Open. I would like to see him at least try to win another Grand Slam or the French Open which he has never won. I don't think Sampras is full of himself because he didn't retire early and in my view is great and old enough to retire at that age. My motto is "it ain't bragging if it is the truth".

    The Korean veterans that I was referring to are players older than the ones fielded at the Thomas Cup who are available to be selected into the team. Obviously the great veterans have retired so they cannot be considered to be selected. I have no knowledge of those retired Korean veterans retiring early. In any event those players most likely retired because they think they no longer can compete against the younger players and no longer produced the desired results. In that case what is the point of keep on playing and they wisely and intelligently retired which is exactly my point all along when a player should retire.

    My point is that you think older players should retire to give way to the youngsters I strongly hold the view this is silly and unfair. If the older players still want to play and are beating the youngsters it is a silly policy to give their spot to the youngsters as if there is an affirmative action policy for youngsters. This is unfair discrimination. Why should the older player who are better give their spots away to youngsters which is your main argument? I know why you believe why but this is at the root of a very unfair policy that you espouse which breach the notion of equal rights and opportunity as well as individual rights.

    Players like Mia Audina who represented Indonesia in the Uber Cup at 14 and Taufik who won his first international tournament at 16 didn't obtain their spots in the national team because the older players gave way to them which is a policy that you approve of. They fairly earned their spot by beating older players to be included in the team to play for their countries. This is the difference between the policy of selection which you approve and the policy that I approve. I want the best to be selected and play for the country be that they are older or younger players. You on the other hand have said that older players should give way to younger players to give them experience and exposure to international play to paraphrase. If the older players are still the best then they should remain if they are still winning titles. Nobody should be sacrificed in the name of a youth development program.

    You are going to extremes when ou ask should Jimmy Connors slug it out against James Blake or Rudy Hartono against Taufik or Lin Dan. This is not my case. Off course if Rudy Hartono can beat Taufik or Lin Dan then why not keep on playing. The same goes to Connors if he can beat Blake but we both know this is impossible. So they should not come out from retirement. Martina Navratilova is a different case she came out of retirement and played singles but the moment she knew she was no longer competitive in singles she concentrated on doubles and mixed. She won titles and knew she was competitive which is my case of urging when a player should keep on playing or to a lesser extent come out of retirement.

    Those come back attempts which have ended in disgrace or embarassment are the ones because they were out of touch with reality or they did it for financial reasons. Obviously one can judge their form or level of competitiveness at training and thus they would be able to judge whether they should proceed or not. If they know that they are no longer as competitive as they use to be and proceed this is their own fault. The keypoint is one should know whether one would be competitive enough to beat or at least match their opponents in the arena. On the case of Ben Johnson I must say that he was never that good because he was using illegal drugs when he was at his best.

    On this point of a come back I must say that this is not my main point that I am arguing so to a lesser extent is not directly relevant to my main point. The only relevant point is that an athlete should compete if he/she knows that he/she is still competitive. I am all for saving the athlete embarassment of being thrashed in the arena. I believe there are good indicators which an athlete can measure his/her perfrormance before he/she enters the sporting arena. So if they proceed with competing in the arena when they know they are below their form then nobody is to blame but the athlete in concerned except maybe the coach and manager.

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    Thumbs down Unfortunately, Badminton is not a true Professional Sport at the moment.

    Hi sabathiel,

    What a fantastically good post, and I agree with most of the things you wrote.

    Unfortunately, Badminton is not a true Professional Sport at the moment.

    All players are still under the National Team Structure. And all players are still required to undergo their vigorous National Training Schedule. And this is one of the main reasons why older players quit/retire.

    You could imagine how hard it is for a 36 year (or even, not as old) trying to cope with new recruits, just 18 say, in their tough physical training.

    Some National Coaches are saying that "If you are not fit enough, you should retire". And these National Coaches realise that these older and experienced players could produce better results, but they know they that they cannot make exceptions for them not to undergo their vigorous training.

    So... what I am saying is that these older players retire because of the pain of training, not that they could not produce good results at tournaments.

    After saying all that... I hope that Badminton will become a true Professional Sport as soon as possible. And when that happens, experienced players will not need to undergo their National Training Schedule.

    They can be independent, like Tennis players, and they can hire their own private coaches. They don't even have to play for their country if it interferes with their professional income, although most of them would, as we can see, like for the Davis Cup in Tennis.

    Cheers... chris@ccc






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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Oh well, i think i'll just end it here...

    (rest of sabathiel's post snipped for brevity)...
    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    On this point of a come back I must say that this is not my main point that I am arguing so to a lesser extent is not directly relevant to my main point. The only relevant point is that an athlete should compete if he/she knows that he/she is still competitive. I am all for saving the athlete embarassment of being thrashed in the arena. I believe there are good indicators which an athlete can measure his/her perfrormance before he/she enters the sporting arena. So if they proceed with competing in the arena when they know they are below their form then nobody is to blame but the athlete in concerned except maybe the coach and manager.
    ..i can somewhat agree on what i've highlighted above..but i must concur wholeheartedly on what chris@ccc wrote that: i don't know if you're a professional athlete or not, but unless we ourselves are professional athletes(or actually in their shoes), we won't know how much it feels to compete and sacrifice all our lives to set out what we want to achieve..therefore we can't "label" pro athletes as such and such without actually actually feel what they've gone through ourselves..

    Anyways, well, sabathiel, as much as i'd like to respond and continue with this discussion, but after seeing/reading quite a lot of your past posts which ended in 2 threads being locked, incl. one which was locked abt a yr or so ago and contained a very dual-toned discussion(which involved yourself & not to put you on a negative term), i realized this particular discussion is, essentially, going no where(probably some BC members are laughing at us for continuing discussing this silly topic). It's been an interesting discussion & i appreciate your efforts in responding, nonetheless. But rather than risking the fate of this thread and ending it like your other locked related threads, with kwun locking this thread, i think for the sake of keeping this thread *on-topic* & alive, i'll refrain and halt from making further replies to your posts...In a way, I should've known abt this before i started my "off-topic" discussions with you..

    Anyhoo, I think for now, let's just say you, me and everyone else are entitled to our own opinions..And to an extent & be fair, let's just say there are no right nor wrong answers/thoughts/opinions and we both can somewhat agree on each other's opinions..So, on that note, i'll end it here and we can take what we've wrote & go our own respected ways-unless if anyone else want to take you up on the discussion and continue this further...
    For now, hopefully, we can get back to discussing the original topic at hand once again..Once again, to kwun and others, sorry again for the off-topic discussions..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-25-2007 at 02:57 PM.

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    Exclamation For discussing/examining Badminton players' feeling/thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad

    For now, hopefully, we can get back to discussing the original topic at hand once again..

    Once again, to kwun and others, sorry again for the off-topic discussions..
    Hi ctjcad and sabathiel,

    For discussing/examining Badminton players' feeling/thinking and also what the BWF is planning for them......
    please be invited to this thread= http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=39747

    Cheers... chris@ccc

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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Off topic-Thanks for the invite...

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc
    Hi ctjcad and sabathiel,

    For discussing/examining Badminton players' feeling/thinking and also what the BWF is planning for them......
    please be invited to this thread= http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=39747

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ..appreciate for the invite, chris@ccc ..but i think for now, i'll just end this discussion as is; one that, after reviewing, IMO, is a bit "silly" to start/keep replying with if i'd known and read sabathiel's past posts..of course, i'm not prohibiting you or anyone else to continue with this..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-25-2007 at 08:35 PM.

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    The discussion might not be directly relevant to the topic but sprang out from the topic and is thus indirectly relevant. In the absence of a warning from the authorities (eg Kwun) it is fair and safe to assume that we are free to continue with our discussions. The discussion is intellectual and civilised. I don't see why we shouldn't carry on for the benefit of badminton. It is better to carry on rather than let the thread die off slowly which it will eventually happen anyway.

    The thread that got locked about a year ago was locked because the discussion was heated and began to become uncivilised. I was arguing with Indra about who is greater, Rudy Hartono or Taufik Hidayat. I didn't know Indra but on hindsight after knowing how subjective and ridicuolous Indra (proven by his silly and unrealistic match predictions) is in regard to Taufik is I should not have become involved with an argument with him.

    I am not a pro athlete becaus badminton is not a pro sport but I have been involved in national competitions representing my home state and at a university level represented Australia overseas. So I can seak from direct personal knowledge of the game. I also trained with Mia Audina and her less known brother before she joined the national team under the coaching of her father.

    I quit badminton totally at a relatively young age of 24. I recently make a come back at the age of 37 by playing competition again. It took me awhile to get into form and now I'm playing A grade badminton again and is competitive in singles and very competitive in doubles. The only thing that has declinedis the speed. In terms of stamina and endurance as proven by marathon runners players in their late 30s can still have high endurance on court. I trained with much younger player and can match them in the stamina department (after losing some weight). It maybe true that the training isn't as vigorous or demanding as the training in national teams or club training in Indonesia (I trained with Mia Audina and her brother under teh coaching of Mia's father) but it is still hard training especially for someone my age. So I am speaking from experience in this matter.

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