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02-21-2007, 10:32 PM #35Originally Posted by ctjcad
02-21-2007, 10:38 PM #36Originally Posted by Joyous
02-21-2007, 10:50 PM #37
Here is an analysis of Taufik Hidayat by Wikipedia, it is interesting to note that Taufik says that Lin Dan is the best player ever:
"To some fans, Taufik is perhaps the world's most spontaneously innovative badminton singles player today. According to them, Taufik does not use the methodical play adopted by Chinese players like Lin Dan (much like Ivan Lendl's tennis style), Taufik plays a natural game, full of grace, anticipation, freshness and risks. He is the only first-rung player who retains the 15-point style of play in the revised, current 21 point system.
Taufik's strengths lie primarily in his powerful backhand, his tapped forehand drop shot and tantalising net-play. His weaknesses lie is his reluctance to kill from high forehand clears, his impatience with loud crowds and his penchant for returning a net dribble with a net dribble, even when the opponent is dangerously close to the net.
In many ways, Taufik's style mirrors the prowling athleticism of one of the greatest players ever to grace the badminton court - Zhao Jianhua. Like Zhao, Taufik looks lazy, moves lazily and wins lazily. But, except when he is annoyed or distracted, Taufik (like Zhao) is anything but lazy. The tactician in him is better than the athlete in him. This is probably why he makes more unforced errors than any other player at his level of ability and skill. (BN)
Hidayat is known for his relaxed smooth playing style and is one of the best all round players in the world. According to many players he has the ability to win against any player in the world when he really sets his mind to it. On the other hand he can lose to lower ranked players when he is not completely focused. His lack of consistency and mental fortitude are often points of criticism. Because of this reputation, many fans believe that if Taufik loses a match to any player it is as much because he didn't care enough as that he was truly beaten. Taufik publicly stated in 2006 that Lin Dan is the best player ever in the world but also described him as being arrogant widely disliked other players. (Taufik was defeated three times by Lin Dan in 2006, at the Thomas Cup semi-final tie, Japan Open final and the Hong Kong Open where Taufik forfeited the match after what he thought was a bad line call at 4-1 to Lin in the first game. Taufik defeated Lin Dan in the final of the 2006 Asian Games individual event on December 9 after losing twice to him in three days in the team event preliminaries and semi-finals and dedicated the sweet victory to his father-in-law and chief of the national sports council, Agum Gumelar.)"
I have had an argument about who is the greatest before and come to the conclusion that Rudy Hartono is the greatest. One of the benchmark that I use as well as the critics used is this player must be overwhelmingly dominant during his/her era. Using this criteria it is beyond dispute that Rudy Hartono was overwhelmingly dominant during his era just like Roger Federer, Pele, Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan in their respective sports. Taufik while being a great player doesn't deserve the mantle of the greatest because he is erratic, inconsistent and doesn't truly dominate badminton during his era. To be judged the greatest that player must have the aura of invincibility apparent from his/her record and titles won. Defeat must be something that doesn't come easy to this player. Playing style is not a credible criteria to judge greatness as the most recent players would have benefited from the game played by past players and thus would be technically better as well as more exciting to watch.
Last edited by sabathiel; 02-21-2007 at 10:54 PM.
02-21-2007, 10:56 PM #38
I think the record of Rudy Hartono speaks for itself. His achievement in badminton esp. in AE have also been recognised in a bigger way thru the Times' Asian Heroes (http://www.yonex.com/pdf/RudyHartono.pdf)
But let's not forget too during that era we weree missing then the sleeping giant, China, who were struggling with internal turmoil and invisible from the international areana. We all remember what happened when China enter the badminton world by storm in the 80s when they showcase the likes of Luan Jin and Han Jian. I mean they dont suddenly obtain that level of skill out of the blue and who knows what would have happened in the 70s if China players were participating in AE.
I am not trying to diminish Rudy's achievment, which was amazing by any standard. But we need to look at that in proper context.
The badminton, and to the same extent, the sports world were truely representing the "world" in the 80s after China, the largest populated country joined the global village.
I agree with Loh that in order to objectively compare the top players achievement, we need to include those events that are open to all (and thus exclude the likes of SEA games and Asia games/championship). In today's context, we also need to include those major opens 5*, 6* and 7*, which will no doubt draw in the best players because of the price money on offer. See my earlier post #26 that compare the major titles for 2005/2006.
I have included the Asian tournament and should have taken that out. But that would not have altered the overall ranking of the current top 4 players and LD is still the most dominant and consistant MS player at this moment.
Last edited by Linus; 02-21-2007 at 11:02 PM.
02-21-2007, 11:19 PM #39
Hmmm...Originally Posted by Loh
Originally Posted by Loh
Last edited by ctjcad; 02-21-2007 at 11:24 PM.
02-21-2007, 11:22 PM #40
I read the article about Rudy Hartono in Linus' post. Adding to the criteria of greatness (ie being dominant) that I already mentioned is the obstacles and hardship that Rudy Hartono had to encounter coming from a relatively poor country and humble background with little resources and support to begin with compared to rich countries like England or Denmark or even the more prosperous Malaysia.
It is true that Rudy's record title numbers is marred by the fact that China was not part of the international badminton fraternity but if we look closer this doesn't tarnish Rudy's achievements. Indonesia, Malaysia and Denmark were badminton powerhouses and Rudy dominated the players from all those countries. China was a badminton giant but their top players, Hou Chia Chiang and Tang Xin Fu, were on the decline due to old age when Rudy emerged as the dominant force in world badminton. So Rudy Hartono truly was the dominant force in the world during that particular era. Sure, Rudy's achievements would have been more solid had China joined the IBF but we should not take anything away from Rudy's achievements as his inclusion to Time magazine 60 years of Asian Heroes. Even way past his prime, at 31, Rudy manage to win the 1980 World Championships by beating Liem Swie King who was in his prime in straight games under 10. After all the experts have good reasons to call Rudy "the maestro" and is considered a "badminton phenomenon".
Last edited by sabathiel; 02-21-2007 at 11:24 PM.
02-21-2007, 11:22 PM #41
It was brought up and snipped before..
(rest of post snipped for brevity)
Originally Posted by sabathiel
Last edited by ctjcad; 02-21-2007 at 11:26 PM.
02-21-2007, 11:35 PM #42Originally Posted by ctjcad
Last edited by sabathiel; 02-21-2007 at 11:37 PM.
02-21-2007, 11:39 PM #43
By this member..Originally Posted by ctjcad
02-21-2007, 11:43 PM #44
Hmmm, all true, but to put it simply...Originally Posted by sabathiel
Last edited by ctjcad; 02-21-2007 at 11:56 PM.
02-22-2007, 12:05 AM #45
I am not talking about "judging" from the perspective of fans and supporters of the game but rather from the point of view of experts. Having said this my elaboration on how to judge a players greatness include th players accomplishment as this is the objective manifestation of the various measure that I have mentioned.
Last edited by sabathiel; 02-22-2007 at 12:08 AM.
02-22-2007, 12:30 AM #46
Experts??..Originally Posted by sabathiel
And yeah, the statement i've highlighted in bold, i think you and i can somewhat agree on that..
02-22-2007, 12:46 AM #47
I am interested in who the experts say is the greatest player because this has a higher value in terms of their judgement. In this case the players themselves of at least a credible level (past and present), the coaches, the badminton administrators, badminton historians etc can guide badminton fans or supporters in coming to the conclusion as to who is the greatest
02-22-2007, 01:59 AM #48
It's easier to decide on just the 2 'Heavenly Kings'Originally Posted by kwun
Talking about the 4 'Heavenly Kings' today...... it will cause a great debate.
But if we were to narrow it down to the 2 'Heavenly Kings', then I would say it would be just Lin Dan and Taufik Hidayat.
02-22-2007, 02:08 AM #49Originally Posted by chris@ccc
02-22-2007, 02:21 AM #50Originally Posted by kwun
02-22-2007, 02:32 AM #51
I am inclined to agree with Sabathiel on his views of an accomplished player. All credit & recognition should be given to Rudy H for his accomplishments during his era despite the absence of the Chinese. I don't think it is sensible to compare him with, say TH. Things have changed, so have the game & equipment used.
Sabathiel has a strong point which I fully agree - dominance in any game. I have earlier mentioned that LD will certainly make a stronger impression in my memory of badminton when he retires than the Chinese guy who won the Olympics some years ago because of his (LD) consistency & dominance.
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