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  1. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyous
    I have earlier mentioned that LD will certainly make a stronger impression in my memory of badminton when he retires than the Chinese guy who won the Olympics some years ago because of his (LD) consistency & dominance.
    Do you mean Yang Yang? He was quite dominant during his era but given Lin Dan is still relatively young Lin Dan has the chance of surpassing Yang Yang's achievements.

    It is too early to judge the current players like Taufik or Lin Dan. It is only fair to measure the greatness of players who have already retired because they have proven themselves. What if Lin Dan's career plummet from now on until he retires in, let's say, his 30s? Or in reverse, what if Lin Dan wins 6 more consecutive All England titles on top of the 2 he already won so far plus an Olympic Gold? The current players still has a lot to prove until they retire.

    An example of big media hype is Icuk Sugiarto who was and still is the youngest player to win a World Championship at 20 and in Indonesia was said to be the next Rudy Hartono at the time. After winning that World title in 1983 he didn't win any more major titles and often lost in early rounds to obscure players something that never happened to Rudy Hartono.

  2. #53
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    Do you mean Yang Yang? He was quite dominant during his era but given Lin Dan is still relatively young Lin Dan has the chance of surpassing Yang Yang's achievements.

    I think he's Xinpeng.. Yang Yang has my respect because he was consistent & dominant during his era. Besides, YY not only won homeground tournaments but abroad.

    For the past 3 yrs, LD has been pretty consistent & dominant & if he continues to do so in the next few years, he will definitely make a greater impact on anybody's memory than a player who strikes big in one or two tournaments. Many will disagree with that. Noboby can deny that AE is a prestigious tournament eventho' it's held yearly. TH has said tournaments that are held yearly do not carry as much prestige like OG & AG & was against WC being held yearly. Accordingly to him, a player who failed can try again the following years. If this is truly so, why do some good players fail to win AE despite it being held yearly and why is it that some made it once & never make it thru' to say even the quarter-finals after that. My opinion is that if you are truly an accomplished player, you will need to have discipline & consistency because it's harder to stay at no. 1 than getting there.
    Therefore, I agree with you that we can only come to conclusion when the player retires. But for the time being, LD still has my vote as the most consistent & dominant player.

  3. #54
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Slightly off topic-Hmm, speaking of LD and him continuing to play longer, actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyous
    For the past 3 yrs, LD has been pretty consistent & dominant & if he continues to do so in the next few years, he will definitely make a greater impact on anybody's memory than a player who strikes big in one or two tournaments.
    ...there has been a minor "whisper"(from a close acquaintance of LD) in BCF(in another recent thread) which mentioned of a possibility that *both* LD and XXF will retire after the 2008 Olympics...How accurate is that? well, it is still unconfirmed...So stay tune..
    *I'll try to find the thread/posts of that report..

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    This is sad with relatively young players like Taufik and Lin Dan talking about retirement and not continue playing until at least 30. Do these players think that they are so great that by retiring early they would leave a great mark in badminton history? Having heard this early retirement talk makes me think that another sub-criteria for greatness is whether a player still excells (or maybe even remain a force to be reckon with) in his latter years (say from 28 to his/her 30s). A truly great player like Rudy Hartono (who manage to win a World title in his 30s) would still generate fear in his/her opponents by winning major titles in his/her latter years. Players like Rudy Hartono, Poul Erik Hoyer Larsen, Hendrawan etc won major titles in their 30s. In particular Hoyer Larsen and Hendrawan who excelled and played their best badminton in their 30s. Are players like Taufik and Lin Dan who talk of early retirement scared that they won't be able to play at their peak and win major titles in their latter years and thus tarnish their record? This makes me wonder. Are they gutless or just plain complacent or maybe both?

  5. #56
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    You may be right. But whether a player ought to step down will depend if there are younger players ready to take over from him. Sometimes the choice may not entirely be his alone.

    Take Rudy's case, obviously in the large part of the 70s there was not many choices of MS out of Indonesia until Lim Swie King. He has to soldier on.

    This year we saw the retirement of Chen Hong, who many believes he still have a few good years left, but what choice did he really have if the China association did not want to send him to major tournament even if he is willing to compete at the highest level?

    There is also the view of the level of physical requirement in modern sports have changed so much that the demand of players to be in tip-top condition always is pushing players (not only in badminton) to retire from high level competition earlier than in the 70s/80s.

    From a more human side, sometimes we also prefer to see our "hero" bow out in glory rather than being forced out in embarassment.

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    TH did indicate he would want to retire after the Beijing Olympics and LCW mentioned that he would quit when he's 28. Don't know about LD tho'. But I suppose the right age to retire is subjective. Motivation will probably play a part in coming to this decision. Based on statistics the Chinese players retire much earlier with the exception of Zhang Ning.

  7. #58
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Slightly off topic-Here it is...

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    ...there has been a minor "whisper"(from a close acquaintance of LD) in BCF(in another recent thread) which mentioned of a possibility that *both* LD and XXF will retire after the 2008 Olympics...How accurate is that? well, it is still unconfirmed...So stay tune..
    *I'll try to find the thread/posts of that report..
    ah, found it, here is the related link/thread/posts:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=39585 (starting from post #11)..again, don't get it wrong as it's not confirmed..
    Quote Originally Posted by Linus
    You may be right. But whether a player ought to step down will depend if there are younger players ready to take over from him. Sometimes the choice may not entirely be his alone.

    Take Rudy's case, obviously in the large part of the 70s there was not many choices of MS out of Indonesia until Lim Swie King. He has to soldier on.

    This year we saw the retirement of Chen Hong, who many believes he still have a few good years left, but what choice did he really have if the China association did not want to send him to major tournament even if he is willing to compete at the highest level?

    There is also the view of the level of physical requirement in modern sports have changed so much that the demand of players to be in tip-top condition always is pushing players (not only in badminton) to retire from high level competition earlier than in the 70s/80s.

    From a more human side, sometimes we also prefer to see our "hero" bow out in glory rather than being forced out in embarassment.
    ..hmm, all sound reasonable and i can somewhat concur with what Linus wrote...And those are all the more reason for my earlier point that "Each to their own 'greatness'", as generation of players deserve their own "greatness"..Do LD's or TH's or even XXF's decision(s), to retire early, put them in a class "lower" than their great predecessors??...Thus, pitting or "judging" one player to another or to a different generation(s) is, IMO, incomparable...
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-22-2007 at 11:52 PM.

  8. #59
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    It is a different case if the badminton establishment of the player's respective country forces the player to retire early. I think this is silly if the player is still winning tournaments and is in great form. What I am concerned about is if the player himself/herself decides to retire early because he/she believes that he/she has achieved enough at an early age. I find it hard to believe that a country's badminton association will force a player who is still in great form and still winning tournaments to retire (eg Chen Hong). Is this confirmed officially or just a rumour?

    Rudy Hartono came out of retirement at 31 to win the 1980 World Championships by beating the in form Liem Swie King 15-9;15-9. PBSI didn't force Rudy to retire or come out of retirement. Tony Gunawan is 31 and PBSI wants him to play for Indonesia again despite lots of new talent in men's doubles in Indonesia.

    The New Scoring System allows for players, in my opinion, to play longer even into their 30s because matches will never go to 90 minutes or more anymore. The longest duration is now just above 60 minutes with many matces ending in less than 20 minutes. A Swedish doubles specialist in the late 70s and early 80s named Thomas Khilstrom was still winning major titles in his mid 30s and played until 38. Jens Eriksen will be 38 this year and is still playing well. Liem Swie King played doubles and won major titles in his 30s. Zhang Ning is another example. Andre Agassi retired at 35 and still manage to win titles in his 30s. So age is no excuse if one is still determined to win and compete at that level.

    I know it is academic judging the greatness of a player particularly players from different generations but this is what sports historians must do and to a lesser extent the fans. The judgement enriches the knowledge and history of that particular sport as well as it is fun arguing who is better and who is the greatest. That is why they have Hall Of Fames and special awards!

  9. #60
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmmm-Just to comment on these...

    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    It is a different case if the badminton establishment of the player's respective country forces the player to retire early. I think this is silly if the player is still winning tournaments and is in great form. What I am concerned about is if the player himself/herself decides to retire early because he/she believes that he/she has achieved enough at an early age. I find it hard to believe that a country's badminton association will force a player who is still in great form and still winning tournaments to retire (eg Chen Hong). Is this confirmed officially or just a rumour?
    ..personally, why would one feel "concerned" if a player who is still in peak form & capable of playing competitively retires early or vice versa(comes out of retirement). I know sometimes we may wonder why?? Take an example of Mia Audina, who abruptly retired last yr. Or say Camilla Martin, who retired before she reached 30 yrs. old, if i'm not mistaken. But if a player feels s/he has had enough, whatever their age(s) may be, then more power to him/her & its entirely their own decisions. Same thing with the case of players wanting to come out of retirements(like your example of Mr. Hartono). Essentially, its their own lifelihoods and "concerns".
    As for CH's reason to retire early, well, there have been some discussions on that as well..ah, here's a related thread on his retirement: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=40376 (notice he mentioned abt comparing the MS and WS levels of competition)..
    Rudy Hartono came out of retirement at 31 to win the 1980 World Championships by beating the in form Liem Swie King 15-9;15-9. PBSI didn't force Rudy to retire or come out of retirement. Tony Gunawan is 31 and PBSI wants him to play for Indonesia again despite lots of new talent in men's doubles in Indonesia.
    ..just want to touch on PBSI's plan to "hire" Tony(and Candra) back for their upcoming SC and TC teams..Hmm, IMO, it's more of a "desperate" move..Btw, the latest news indicate the plan might not even go through-there's another thread which mentions abt this..here it is: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...t=33672&page=2 (starting from post #36 or if interested you guys can read the entire thread)..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-23-2007 at 01:05 AM.

  10. #61
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    If only China allows it "discards" (for whatever reason) to play for other countries without having to change citizenship. Discards would include those players who feel they still have it in them to play at the highest level, but they can't represent countries in major competitions like the Thomas, Uber, Sudirman Cups, the Olympics, etc, where only citizens are allowed.

    I think Tony Gunawan, though not a US citizen yet, now plays for that country in BWF SS or Opens and other international competitions. In this way, such discards can still ply their wares elsewhere, continue to be employed and win prize monies in a vocation that they are trained for.

    This will apply to Chen Hong and Zhou Mi as well. If there are suitable incentives, they may well want to continue to do what they do best and remain in the limelight for as long as possible. Their ex-compatriots like Xu Huaiwen(Germany), Yao Jie (Nederlands) and Pi Hongyan (France) did so but had to give up Chinese citizenship in the process.

    China then has to learn to open up more and allow freedom of employment and travel to such talents who may still be wanted by other countries rather than to 'force' them to remain at home doing something that they may not like.
    Last edited by Loh; 02-23-2007 at 02:36 AM.

  11. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    ..personally, why would one feel "concerned" if a player who is still in peak form & capable of playing competitively retires early or vice versa(comes out of retirement). I know sometimes we may wonder why?? Take an example of Mia Audina, who abruptly retired last yr. Or say Camilla Martin, who retired before she reached 30 yrs. old, if i'm not mistaken. But if a player feels s/he has had enough, whatever their age(s) may be, then more power to him/her & its entirely their own decisions. Same thing with the case of players wanting to come out of retirements(like your example of Mr. Hartono). Essentially, its their own lifelihoods and "concerns".
    As for CH's reason to retire early, well, there have been some discussions on that as well..ah, here's a related thread on his retirement: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=40376 (notice he mentioned abt comparing the MS and WS levels of competition)..

    ..just want to touch on PBSI's plan to "hire" Tony(and Candra) back for their upcoming SC and TC teams..Hmm, IMO, it's more of a "desperate" move..Btw, the latest news indicate the plan might not even go through-there's another thread which mentions abt this..here it is: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...t=33672&page=2 (starting from post #36 or if interested you guys can read the entire thread)..
    I suppose "concerned" is a wrong choice of word. What I meant is I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport. I admire people who give a lot to the sport by playing until their mid thirties or even late thirties and still manage to excell in their sport. Quiting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough. On the other side that player lacks the courage to go further on with the fear that he/she might not be able to sustain his/her record.

    I know the decision is entirely theirs to make but I feel true greatness doesn't quit early simply on the fact that you are still on top. Rudy Hartono quit not while he was still on top. In fact Rudy's last international game was a defeat to Luan Jin in the 1982 Thomas Cup. The same thing happen to Muhammad Ali and Andre Agassi. These sportspeople show that they are fighters and aren't scared of defeat or tarnishing the totality of their achievements by continuing at an older age. They also show a passion and love of their sports which makes their fans admire them more for their contribution to the sport.

    Having a legitimate reason to quit early is in my book excusable for example health reasons/permanent injuries, personal or family commitments, etc but simply quiting early because you are still on top or think you have achieved enough tarnishes the character and real achievement of the sportsperson.

    Mia Audina quit because she is devoting her life to assist her husbands career who is a gospel singer because her husband has so far supported her badminton career at his expense. Mia also didn't quit while she was on top at 27. Camilla Martin quit international badminton at 30 also when she was on the decline. 30 seems to be a good age to retire especially if you are already on the decline. In Canada they have a 48 old woman who still is playing in the national team (Denyse Julien) and still manage to beat the youngsters.

    I don't think that PBSI is really desperate to get Tony to play for Indonesia because there are many doubles players in Indonesia who are relatively doing okay at international level. Sigit Budiarto is still playing for his club internationally (Jarum) and PBSI isn't trying to get him back into Pelatnas. Similarly Candra Wijaya has quit Pelatnas and PBSI isn't trying to get him back. All PBSI wants is for these players to still represent Indonesia whether that is while at Pelatnas, their Club or personally. There are at least 3 credible men's doubles pairs in Pelatnas unlike China who only has one credible men's double internationally.
    Last edited by sabathiel; 02-23-2007 at 04:08 AM.

  12. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel

    I know the decision is entirely theirs to make but I feel true greatness doesn't quit early simply on the fact that you are still on top. Rudy Hartono quit not while he was still on top. In fact Rudy's last international game was a defeat to Luan Jin in the 1982 Thomas Cup. The same thing happen to Muhammad Ali and Andre Agassi. These sportspeople show that they are fighters and aren't scared of defeat or tarnishing the totality of their achievements by continuing at an older age. They also show a passion and love of their sports which makes their fans admire them more for their contribution to the sport.

    Having a legitimate reason to quit early is in my book excusable for example health reasons/permanent injuries, personal or family commitments, etc but simply quiting early because you are still on top or think you have achieved enough tarnishes the character and real achievement of the sportsperson.
    I think Taufik or other people doesn't care whatever we think about him if he retired in early ages... For me it doesn't matter.. as long as he/she thinks that he "had enough", the world is not a badminton only mate..!
    They have family and other things to look after as well.

    The greatness of the sportman is not merely based on what people think about him or his achievements in the world's stages, but for me is how he/she would like to take/make the sport that he love most to be known around the world.

    wizzy.

  13. #64
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default It's all in their decision & we should respect their decisions..

    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    I suppose "concerned" is a wrong choice of word. What I meant is I am against the notion of great players or potentially great players retiring early for the reason of personal glory because they are complacent with what they have achieved so far and refuse to slug it out until their later years (at least 30) and give their fair share of contribution to the sport. I admire people who give a lot to the sport by playing until their mid thirties or even late thirties and still manage to excell in their sport. Quiting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough. On the other side that player lacks the courage to go further on with the fear that he/she might not be able to sustain his/her record.

    I know the decision is entirely theirs to make but I feel true greatness doesn't quit early simply on the fact that you are still on top. Rudy Hartono quit not while he was still on top. In fact Rudy's last international game was a defeat to Luan Jin in the 1982 Thomas Cup. The same thing happen to Muhammad Ali and Andre Agassi. These sportspeople show that they are fighters and aren't scared of defeat or tarnishing the totality of their achievements by continuing at an older age. They also show a passion and love of their sports which makes their fans admire them more for their contribution to the sport.

    Having a legitimate reason to quit early is in my book excusable for example health reasons/permanent injuries, personal or family commitments,etc but simply quiting early because you are still on top or think you have achieved enough tarnishes the character and real achievement of the sportsperson.

    Mia Audina quit because she is devoting her life to assist her husbands career who is a gospel singer because her husband has so far supported her badminton career at his expense. Mia also didn't quit while she was on top at 27. Camilla Martin quit international badminton at 30 also when she was on the decline. 30 seems to be a good age to retire especially if you are already on the decline. In Canada they have a 48 old woman who still is playing in the national team (Denyse Julien) and still manage to beat the youngsters.
    ..hmm, i could somewhat concur with most of your 1st paragraph above..Further, IMO, and as far as i know, most athletes(in any sports) who retired or quit early had some if not most of the reason you've mentioned above, which i've highlighted in bold...However, even if they want to quit early because "one is still on top or think one has achieved enough", i think we fans should respect their decisions...
    Abt the notion that "Quitting while one is still on top early shows or at least gives the impression that that player is full of himself/herself by thinking that he/she has achieved enough", IMO, as a fan and probably most fans out there would "prefer" to see their athletes retire "on top of their game" rather than continue playing and degrade as they get older. I understand the current DEN pairs of JE/MLH are still playing but are they really doing the sport & their national team, even themselves, a favor? I also think this notion could be somewhat applied also to some of those retired athletes who came out of their retirement, who probably weren't fit for competing to begin with, and pursued or continued in their previously-played sport(s). In most cases, they did so simply because they're after some more monies...If that's the case, are they doing the sport a "favor" by doing so??..Are they "contributing to the sport"??..Do you think older greats like Rexy or Rudy should come out of retirement and compete again??..Would their presence "contribute to the sport"??..
    I don't think that PBSI is really desperate to get Tony to play for Indonesia because there are many doubles players in Indonesia who are relatively doing okay at international level. Sigit Budiarto is still playing for his club internationally (Jarum) and PBSI isn't trying to get him back into Pelatnas. Similarly Candra Wijaya has quit Pelatnas and PBSI isn't trying to get him back. All PBSI wants is for these players to still represent Indonesia whether that is while at Pelatnas, their Club or personally. There are at least 3 credible men's doubles pairs in Pelatnas unlike China who only has one credible men's double internationally.
    ..hmm, if what i've highlighted in bold is the case, then why aren't they pursuing their ex-players like Sigit or Eng Hian, who basically are more ideal logistically-speaking, to come back and play for them??..I understand that PBSI want players who are playing overseas like Tony to come back and play for their local clubs, but i thought one has to be a part of Pelatnas or INA National team in order for him/her to compete in team events(ie. SC, TC/UC, AG)..

  14. #65
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Sorry, meant to write...

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    I understand the current DEN pairs of JE/MLH are still playing but are they really doing the sport & their national team, even themselves, a favor?
    (but ran out of editing-time)..
    ...I understand some of the current players who are playing competitively past their "primes"(whoever they may be) are doing so out of their passions and love for the game, but are they really helping or "contributing" to the sport or even what the national team's main goal is/are??..In other words, what is/are the benefit(s) of having those players continue playing past their prime(s), esp. knowing well that there are younger players ready & waiting to be given exposure(s) and take over their helm(s)..In a way, the argument is somewhat related in the same boat as the PBSI/Pelatnas/Tony issue..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-23-2007 at 01:42 PM.

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    Those players who are playing competitevely past their primes still are contributing to their sport or even the national team's main goal because they are still competitive. Off course if they are no longer competitive then there is no point to play or maybe they are not working hard enough. On the issue of money, they would not be making money unless they are still good and competitive so good on them for making money because that means they are still competitive and contributing to the sport.

    I believe that the youngsters must work hard and earn their spot in the national team and not expect the oldies to simply give a spot for these youngsters in the team. If the youngsters are good enough on their own merit than good on them but they should not have a free ride or the oldies make it easy for them. If the oldies cannot compete with the youngsters than it is time for these oldies to quit because what is the point of playing if you are not doing well. It is a waste of time and expenses! So true competition is a good thing between the oldies and the youngsters. This is what is good for the sport.

    Jens Eriksen is still doing well and with his partner is still the top men's doubles pair in Denmark. Why should he quit simply to let the youngsters get more exposure? Is this in the interests of badminton in general or more specifically for Danish badminton? By allowing the youngsters play and compete against these top older players the youngsters would be learning a lot and push themselves to become better and better. Rudy Hartono at 32 was called to be a member of the Indonesian Thomas Cup because there are no youngster good enough to fill the spot. Is it in the national team's interest to fill the spot with an inexperienced youngster who is still not good enough to play at the highest level? Surely training against the maestro will give the youngsters invaluable badminton lessons for the youngsters. The exposure for the youngsters can come from being send to lower level tournaments to prove themselves. What is the point of sending these youngsters to high level tournaments if they can't even do well in lower grade tournaments. A waste of money and probably affect the confidence of these youngsters.

    Youngsters are good with speed and power while the oldies are better with tactics, intelligence, maturity of play and wisdom on the court. Surely it is an enormous benefit to the youngsters to learn from the older players in those department the older players excell in. This can only be a good thing for the sport.

    In regard to Tony Gunawan I know that in order to play in the Olympics, Thomas Cup or Sudirman Cup he has to be an Indonesian citizen which he is but I am not sure if it is a requirement for him to be in the national team or reside in Indonesia. I don't think it is necessary for Tony to be a resident in Indonesia or be at Pelatnas. That is why PBSI is trying to get him to play for Indonesian again. Tony is happy in the USA with his wife and has a good job there. I doubt very much that he would like to come back and live in Indonesia again simply to play badminton for Indonesia (which I think is unnecessary anyway). It is metioned in one article that PBSI want Tony and the other older players to at least be sparring partners for the younger players which means it is not in PBSI's interests to see these older players quit for the reasons I already mentioned.

    I respect the players decision to retire but that is different from respecting a players decision to retire early because they are still on top and doesn't have the courage to continue playing because they are scared their record will be marred if they continue playing. Retire on top at a reasonably old age yes but not at a relatively early age. The sport and the fans deserve more than that because the player's true potential is not realized and the sport and fans are deprived of years of potentially good/great badminton. Would you be annoyed at least a bit if Roger Federer who is touted as the greatest tennis player ever retires now because he is still on top now because he thinks he has achieved enough. What good is that to the fans or sport? Imagine what he could have achieved if he continues playing and what kind of records he could break? Respect their decisions to quit maybe but to like silly decisions like that definetely not. These great players owe it to the sport and fans who have made them great to give the sport and fans their best effort in playing the sport. It is us who made them great by giving them the adulation and accolades and to a lesser extent the monies that they earn from supporting the sport. Without us the fans where would they be?

    Don't you think you admire players like Peter Gade who in his 30s can still manage to win the Malaysian Open because of his talents and sheer determination to succeed at an older age? Off course players like Rexy or Rudy are no longer competitive at their age but if they were wouldn't you like to watch them? Wouldn't they like to keep on playing and contribute to the sport if they think they still can win? That is why they are either coaches or administrators of the sport because they love the game so much they want to participate in the sport in whatever capacity they can. Trust me if Rexy can still win All England he probably would still like to play competitevely at an international level.
    Last edited by sabathiel; 02-23-2007 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzy
    I think Taufik or other people doesn't care whatever we think about him if he retired in early ages... For me it doesn't matter.. as long as he/she thinks that he "had enough", the world is not a badminton only mate..!
    They have family and other things to look after as well.

    The greatness of the sportman is not merely based on what people think about him or his achievements in the world's stages, but for me is how he/she would like to take/make the sport that he love most to be known around the world.

    wizzy.
    If he loves the sport he wouldn't retire early. If he would like to take/make the sport that he loves most to be known around the world he would continue playing his best badminton and promote the sport with his skills.

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    4 Heavenly Kings???


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