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  1. #18
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Default decisive moment?

    What do you guys think that would be? Picture 1? Picture 2? Picture 3? All of them or None of them?
    How to define in this case?
    On the other hand. I think there is a very clear guideline on HCB's definition of "decisive moment" . I believe that is "Getting the best or getting nothing!"
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  2. #19
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    I personally like #3 because it shows the tension Lin Dan is releasing after winning. To me it portrays his excitement in his accomplishment and you can see that through his position and his tensed muscles. It conveys the moment with emotion. I like #1 too because it could be interpreted as the moment before Lin Dan were to break down and start crying... but it's Lin Dan .

    Btw, Kwun I really like the photos you posted. I like the angles you used and especially liked the one with Eva just staring at that bird.
    Last edited by Bobatea; 02-07-2007 at 12:42 PM.

  3. #20
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    i really need to read up more on the definition and interpretations of "decisive moment", it seems like everyone have a different take to it!

  4. #21
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobatea
    Btw, Kwun I really like the photos you posted. I like the angles you used and especially liked the one with Eva just staring at that bird.
    thanks. Eva's shot was definitely caught right on the "moment". despite the lack of action, it is one of my favorite shot for the tournament.

  5. #22
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurker
    btw kwun, what lens were u using?
    f1.6? whoaa...

    the 85mm f1.4? 50mm 1.4?
    30/1.4
    50/1.4
    85/1.4

    hey it was really dark in there!

  6. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    thanks. Eva's shot was definitely caught right on the "moment". despite the lack of action, it is one of my favorite shot for the tournament.
    Action is told through that photo .

  7. #24
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    i really need to read up more on the definition and interpretations of "decisive moment", it seems like everyone have a different take to it!
    I think I need that too.
    Last night, I spent quite a while to think of what "decisive moment" is. What should be counted and what shouldn't be. And now here's my little conclusion.
    The HCB pictures that I posted in this reply should be counted and the Lin Dan pictures that I posted yesterday shouldn't be!

    Point number 1.) All pictures that related to decisive moment were with two or more main elements.
    Point number 2.) At lease one of them were in motion.
    Point number 3.) The duration of that moment was super short and critical.

    Because of that. I believe most of the badminton pictures didn't satisify all those conditions and using the term "decisive moment" was not appropriate.

    Those are only my interpretation of HCB's decisive moment. Therefore, I would like to hear some feedback from you guys.
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  8. #25
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    i will post more thoughts on it later, but here is a food for thought that we can use as a starting point for discussion:

    The decisive moment, as Cartier-Bresson tersely defined it, is ‘the simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as the precise organization of forms which gives that event its proper expression."

  9. #26
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    Looks like this place is going to be a good breeding ground for a new breed of great photographers in the future.

  10. #27
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    so profound. i spent a fair amount of braincells on the definition. and i don't know if i truely understands it. but here is my take on it. we can disect the definition in smaller pieces.

    significance of an event

    that means the event must be of some significance (duh...). in other words, the subject matter is probably not the mundane everyday type of subject, me sitting down eating dinner isn't going to cut it. a jumpsmash? is it really significant? i think not, there are tons and tons of jumpsmashes in a regular badminton match, what's one different than the other? so while capturing a jumpsmash is an interesting photo, the subject matter is not really so significant.

    precise organization of forms which gives that event its proper expression.

    i think this is a combination of composition and how the entities in the photos are organized so that it tells a story. maybe not a story story, but as the definition says, gives that event its proper expression. this is hard stuff, have to express an event in terms of a 2 dimensional photo.

    i think red's Lin Dan photo tells a story, my photo of Eva kinda tells an event also. they certainly did success in achieving this goal.

    maybe others can give more thoughts on this..

    simultaneous recognition

    the way the definition was put forward is quite interesting. it is the recognition. this is actually refering to the photographer recognizing, and not the photo describing. in other words, "decisive moment" is really describing the skill of the photographer and not the descriptiveness of a photograph. i think this is quite interesting and takes some time to think through what this really means...

    ok. that's all i have for now. feel free to add your thoughts and especially interesting if we can keep badminton in mind when we think.

  11. #28
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    You can try to pick the decisive moment if you can visualize how the picture will look and the difference it will make, if you take it earlier, at the right moment, or later. For the picture of the man jumping over a body of water, how would it look if that picture was taken as he was preparing to take off? How would it look if it was taken later, when he lands into the water? The picture as it was taken tellingly and perhaps amusingly tells us that he is in for a real surprise. The other two pictures have many centers of interest but all making direct contact with the viewer. If taken earlier or later, all those centers interest eyes will be looking at different directions. The picture of the 3 kids is pure perfection of what a decisive moment is.
    It is visualization for that best moment that is neither before nor after. A decisive moment of a poorly taken, or inappropriate, subject is nothing compared with the decisive moment of the type of pictures shown here, but it is still a decisive moment.

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    just switch to burst mode and fire off a couple...then pick the best

    once read, the difference between a pro and amatuer photographer is the size of the waste basket...guess now its the size of the harddisk or CF card....just shoot and choose what you like.

  13. #30
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    a jumpsmash? is it really significant? i think not, there are tons and tons of jumpsmashes in a regular badminton match, what's one different than the other? so while capturing a jumpsmash is an interesting photo, the subject matter is not really so significant.
    i agree that. unless some unusual thing had happened during that jumpsmash!

    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    i think red's Lin Dan photo tells a story, my photo of Eva kinda tells an event also. they certainly did success in achieving this goal.
    but let's think it this way kwun. those lin dan pictures were acturally from an action sequence that last for around 20 seconds. if picture number 3 is counted as decisive moment then why not picture number 1 or 2? unlike the photo of eva. i m pretty sure the duration is pretty short!

    any comment on this?

  14. #31
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    You can take 100 "decisive moment" pictures but only a very few will be gems. Cartier Bresson also quoted from the 17th century Cardinal Retz that there is nothing in this world that does not have a "decisive moment" in his book "The Decisive Moment".
    There are many decisive moment opportunities in badminton-in the players, the spectators, the referees and umpires, the cameraman, coaches (LYB could be a good one, because he displays a range of emotions that say it all).

  15. #32
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    You can take 100 "decisive moment" pictures but only a very few will be gems. Cartier Bresson also quoted from the 17th century Cardinal Retz that there is nothing in this world that does not have a "decisive moment" in his book "The Decisive Moment".
    There are many decisive moment opportunities in badminton-in the players, the spectators, the referees and umpires, the cameraman, coaches (LYB could be a good one, because he displays a range of emotions that say it all).
    interesting point about coaches and especially LYB. this reminds me of a photo i saw. i was sitting at the media room during the WC2005 and i peeked over the laptop next to my seat, and i saw Yves Lacrois has this really well timed capture of LYB arguing against a call, and the referee tried to restrain him.

    the photo credit goes to Yves Lacrois.
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    "Decisive moment" pictures are more difficult to take with digital slr cameras using auto focus, especially under available light and low contrast situations. Using motorised rapid-firing does not work because that moment is gone in as fast as 1/1000 sec. Anticipation and visualization are necessary. Try to use pre-focus instead of auto-focus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    interesting point about coaches and especially LYB. this reminds me of a photo i saw. i was sitting at the media room during the WC2005 and i peeked over the laptop next to my seat, and i saw Yves Lacrois has this really well timed capture of LYB arguing against a call, and the referee tried to restrain him.

    the photo credit goes to Yves Lacrois.
    This is typical of LYB and a picture like this gives meaning to the more than one thousand words posted about him in this forum.

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