Single is being played like Double?

**alfa2** · 03-03-2007, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by ctjcad

"Well, personally, the *only* "difference" i've seen in the current generation of PROFESSIONAL IBF/BWF competitions, esp. in singles play, to the old generation of PROFESSIONAL IBF/BWF competitions is the prevalent use of the.....short serve..."

ctjcad, do you still have the olden days' video? maybe you can watch it then compare it with how MS is played nowadays. and for the statistics, comparing the former world champion Han Jian, Yangyang and ZhaoJianHua to Lin Dan.

Statistics are taken on the average of every 5 points out of 30 points game.

Smashes = LinDan 3.23X more than other players

Offensive net lifting= LinDan 4.71X more than other players
Long high net lifting = LD 2.18X less than other players

Offensive lob = LinDan 6.74X more
High lob = LD 2.67X less

I hope this provide a clearer image for you ctjcad.

**alfa2** · 03-03-2007, 12:23 AM

im really drained out already after comparing all these chinese world champion (6 hrs of video watching, 11 pages of A4 paper, my pause/play button almost fell off already, have to pause/play few times for every points

). anyone mind doing the statistics for European players?? Morten Frost, Poul Erik Hoyer Larsen and Peter Gade? then the stats would be complete.

**sabathiel** · 03-03-2007, 12:54 AM

Hi alfa2! It's nice to see that you agree with my analysis and you corrected the topic by adding the word "more".

You must have a lot of video collections of the old players and curren t players. If you follow the history of badminton you would find that the game, especially the men's singles, has become faster, more powerful and more aggressive as time goes on. Gone are the days of the baseline rallies of old preferred by European players. Defensive players such as Icuk Sugiarto and Han Jian are extinct today. Even as late as the 90s the long rally players such as Ardy Wiranata does well at the world stage.

**eggroll** · 03-03-2007, 01:06 AM

I think the new scoring system has resulted in a flatter more driving style of singles because of the loss of a point if you try to work the corners too much and hit the shuttle out. I also think that a good doubles player can be an effective singles player now because of this change in strategy. At the club level I don't think it is as much a factor but at the world level it is becoming more so. I don't have stats but the game has changed in this past year. If you get up 5 or 6 points now you can exchange serves for a while and be up 16-12 and then it's tough to come back. A score like 21-15 is pretty much a lopsided win and when it gets to be 17-16 or 18-17 it's gut check time! Personally I don't like it much. Takes the strategy out of working a guy around the court then putting him away because you lose points to an attacking style then can't get it back as easy when it was a 15 point game.

**eggroll** · 03-03-2007, 01:10 AM

[ Even as late as the 90s the long rally players such as Ardy Wiranata does well at the world stage.[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention Ardy. He lives here in my part of the world and I speak with him often. He thinks he would have a very tough time of it with the new style and scoring because the game is over too quick now and would not suit his work the opponent around until he can't chase the shhuttle down anymore tactic. He also helped me fromulate my comments in my previous thread.

**ctjcad** · 03-03-2007, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by alfa2

It is that way because in WS, women players dont have that much of power, speed and energy to keep up a fully efficient attacking game like what LD can offer. Thats why in WS, they sometimes still prefer long serves.

..alfa2, actually i understand that difference, but i was actually looking for someone to expound more on this; so i'm glad you were able to take it up..good job & good for ya!

ctjcad, do you still have the olden days' video? maybe you can watch it then compare it with how MS is played nowadays. and for the statistics, comparing the former world champion Han Jian, Yangyang and ZhaoJianHua to Lin Dan.

Statistics are taken on the average of every 5 points out of 30 points game.

Smashes = LinDan 3.23X more than other players

Offensive net lifting= LinDan 4.71X more than other players
Long high net lifting = LD 2.18X less than other players

Offensive lob = LinDan 6.74X more
High lob = LD 2.67X less

I hope this provide a clearer image for you ctjcad.

..hmm, to answer your question of whether i have videos of the olden days, my answer is no, i don't have those videos of the olden players. But again, as we already know, and as you and taneepak & sabathiel already elaborated, the olden (MS)players do have a different playing style than the (MS)players of today. Thus, back to my original p.o.v.(point of view) that the only difference i, personally, can see, esp. in MS, is the more prevalent use of the short backhand serve in..

Abt those statistical numbers, thanks for providing for all of us.

Btw, good discussions guys, but i hope we can get other members' inputs. I wonder where are the other "BCF resident coaches" in here to give us their inputs(ie. Gollum, KiwiPlayer etc.)

**sabathiel** · 03-03-2007, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by eggroll

[ Even as late as the 90s the long rally players such as Ardy Wiranata does well at the world stage.

Funny you mention Ardy. He lives here in my part of the world and I speak with him often. He thinks he would have a very tough time of it with the new style and scoring because the game is over too quick now and would not suit his work the opponent around until he can't chase the shhuttle down anymore tactic. He also helped me fromulate my comments in my previous thread.[/quote]

You know Ardy personally? I use to train at the same badminton hall with him when I was living (and holidayed) in Jakarta. We often see each other but we don't know each other personally. My best friend in junior high school use to be Ardy's nemesis in his junior days (under 15 West Jakarta championships).

**alfa2** · 03-03-2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by eggroll

I think the new scoring system has resulted in a flatter more driving style of singles because of the loss of a point if you try to work the corners too much and hit the shuttle out. I also think that a good doubles player can be an effective singles player now because of this change in strategy. At the club level I don't think it is as much a factor but at the world level it is becoming more so. I don't have stats but the game has changed in this past year. If you get up 5 or 6 points now you can exchange serves for a while and be up 16-12 and then it's tough to come back. A score like 21-15 is pretty much a lopsided win and when it gets to be 17-16 or 18-17 it's gut check time! Personally I don't like it much. Takes the strategy out of working a guy around the court then putting him away because you lose points to an attacking style then can't get it back as easy when it was a 15 point game.

yes, i deeply agree that the new style of playing singles partly has something to do with the new scoring system. A player could concentrate his strength in producing a more agressive play in the new scoring system because the 21 points is averagely around 10-11 points only if it was calculated in the 15 points system. That's why the match time is also reduced to almost half.

**eggroll** · 03-03-2007, 12:25 PM

You know Ardy personally? I use to train at the same badminton hall with him when I was living (and holidayed) in Jakarta. We often see each other but we don't know each other personally. My best friend in junior high school use to be Ardy's nemesis in his junior days (under 15 West Jakarta championships).[/QUOTE]

Yes I talk to Ardy frequently. He is a coach at the Glencoe club here in Calgary. I stop by there once a week as part of my job and he is a pleasure to speak to and work with. I also am friends with Channarong Rattannasangsueng.(sp?) He was a former world champion and is now retired from his role as head professional at the Glencoe. Chan, as he was called, is one of the most genuine and nicest men I have ever met. His example has shaped many lives and he effected myself by his example. Of note Chan doesn't like the new scoring much either as it may be good for television but the loss of the stategy is being dropped in favour of power and attacking. Chan felt that was what doubles was for.

**eggroll** · 03-03-2007, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by alfa2

yes, i deeply agree that the new style of playing singles partly has something to do with the new scoring system. A player could concentrate his strength in producing a more agressive play in the new scoring system because the 21 points is averagely around 10-11 points only if it was calculated in the 15 points system. That's why the match time is also reduced to almost half.

You're spot on here. I have watched a number of old matches and scored them with the new system and the games would be over in approximately half the time and they lose an aspect of the drama created in the game to 15.

**wedgewenis** · 03-03-2007, 02:02 PM

Agreed.......................................

**sabathiel** · 03-03-2007, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by eggroll

You know Ardy personally? I use to train at the same badminton hall with him when I was living (and holidayed) in Jakarta. We often see each other but we don't know each other personally. My best friend in junior high school use to be Ardy's nemesis in his junior days (under 15 West Jakarta championships).

Yes I talk to Ardy frequently. He is a coach at the Glencoe club here in Calgary. I stop by there once a week as part of my job and he is a pleasure to speak to and work with. I also am friends with Channarong Rattannasangsueng.(sp?) He was a former world champion and is now retired from his role as head professional at the Glencoe. Chan, as he was called, is one of the most genuine and nicest men I have ever met. His example has shaped many lives and he effected myself by his example. Of note Chan doesn't like the new scoring much either as it may be good for television but the loss of the stategy is being dropped in favour of power and attacking. Chan felt that was what doubles was for.[/quote]

Isn't Ardy also the coach of the Canadian national team?

I have never heard of this Channarong Rattannasangseung. Where is he from? I am sure if he was a former world champion I would have heard of him. What world champion was he of?

**alfa2** · 03-04-2007, 12:09 AM

never heard of chan also (i think mayb from thailand). mayb a world champion for a very short period (like LCW) b4 the time we were borned......

**sabathiel** · 03-04-2007, 12:19 AM

I doubt he was a world champion at any time because before we were born Thailand was nowhere in world badminton. Maybe he was a junior doubles world champion?

Lee Chong Wei was never a World Champion unless what you meant was that he was ranked no 1 for a short period.

**taneepak** · 03-04-2007, 01:04 AM

Channarong Ratanasaengsuang was one of the first batch of Thai badminton players that the late great Wong Peng Soon, invited by the King of Thailand, helped Thailand to build up. Prior to this period badminton was never heard of in Thailand. Channarong was a pretty good player, having whitewashed the top English players and even the famous Danish Finn Kobbero in the All England in the early 1960s, only to lose to Earland Kops in the final. He and Earland Kops toured Canada in the 1960s, with the former deciding to stay. But in the early 1960/61 Thomas Cup Finals, he was beaten by Indonesia's Tan Joe Hock and FA Sonneville.
There were no World Championships at that time.

**alfa2** · 03-04-2007, 01:07 AM

so one has to win World Championship to be called world champion? To me, AE is as prestigious as World Championship.....

**modious** · 03-04-2007, 01:14 AM

http://www.badmintonasia.org/newspage.aspx?newsID=65

Don't think many of us will know who he is as he was playing in the 60s.

And you can find more abt Channarong in Oon Chong Teik badminton memories. http://www.viweb.freehosting.net/OonCT.htm