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  1. #18
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    im really confused with who to believe... this is exactly what my face looks like ! ()
    i will try both though ty for ur replies

  2. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by killersmash
    im really confused with who to believe... this is exactly what my face looks like ! ()
    i will try both though ty for ur replies
    We don't yet know whether there is a real difference of opinion.

  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    Your pictures are broken

    It's difficult to be sure exactly what grip you are describing. Grips are notoriously difficult to describe. That's one reason I've spent so much time rethinking the grips guide.

    As a general comment, simplicity is crucial in grips teaching. You have to describe the essential characteristics of each grip clearly and concisely. Players have to understand the essential differences between the grips.

    From your description, however, I suspect that we are actually talking about the same grip. The bevel ("multipurpose"/"universal") grip does use the thumb for power from behind the racket, just not in quite the same place as the full "backhand" thumb grip.

    I think you have probably been thrown off by the angle of photographs in my guide.

    Moreover, I recommend against teaching "the best backhand grip". Even for backhand clears/smashes, the best grip will depend on the situation. The bevel grip is a good start, but if the shuttle is farther behind you then you must move more towards a panhandle grip, with the thumb placement shifting towards the side bevel. When the shuttle is farther in front, you'll switch back towards a thumb grip (assuming you don't just play a forehand).

    While I'm sure you're a good player, that doesn't provide much credibility on its own. It's better to defer to more authoritative sources when they are available (such as national coaching bodies and national/world class coaches). Amateur players often have their own quirky ways of playing, which work well enough at their level of play, but fall apart at higher levels of play.

    I'm not saying that you're a weaker player than I; you may well be much stronger. It doesn't matter.

    I hope you can fix those pictures so I can get a better understanding of your idea
    Gollum, sorry for the broken link, I hope I did it correctly this time.
    Picture 1.jpg for the "full" thumb grip
    Picture 2.jpg for the backhand grip I suggested

    I totally agree with u that grips in badminton is very diverse depending on where u have to make the shot. I should say specifically that my backhand grip should be used for backhand clear, drive, or smash where the shuttle is at the side (could be a little bit to the front or to the back) of your body, but neither at the front nor at the back.

    I understand that I shouldn't use my credibility to gain dominance in this kind of argument. It's just that I'm new to this technique forum, and I just want to get a bit more positive view from my readers, that's all.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  4. #21
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    Okay, looking at those pictures, you appear to be using a version of the bevel grip or basic grip.

    (Roughly speaking, "basic grip" is the new name in England for "forehand grip".)

    You might be using a very slight shift towards the thumb grip ("backhand" grip), but the difference is tiny (small enough that it falls within the scope of individual variation and situational adjustments).

  5. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    Okay, looking at those pictures, you appear to be using a version of the bevel grip or basic grip.

    (Roughly speaking, "basic grip" is the new name in England for "forehand grip".)

    You might be using a very slight shift towards the thumb grip ("backhand" grip), but the difference is tiny (small enough that it falls within the scope of individual variation and situational adjustments).
    I'm not sure if my backhand grip shown in the picture is called "basic" grip or "forehand" grip because it certainly can not be used for making forehand clear or smash.

    It's also clearly different than the "bevel" grip or "multipurpose" grip u're suggesting. I think my backhand grip is "between" your "multipurpose" grip and the "full" thumb grip.

    That's why it provides more power than the "multipurpose" grip u're suggesting, but it does strecth your wrist more (which could be trained) in order to avoid slashing.

  6. #23
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    It could well be between the bevel and thumb grips. It's impossible to discern that level of detail from the photos.

    You might be surprised which grips can be used for forehand clears or smashes. Again, it depends on where the shuttle is. If the shuttle is level with the body, the basic grip is good. As the shuttle gets farther behind you, however, shift towards a thumb grip ("backhand" grip). Farther in front: shift towards a panhandle grip (not too much!). It's like a mirror image of the backhand grip adjustments.

    The "forehand grip"/"backhand grip" names suggest that there is a big difference between forehand and backhand grips. In fact, every "forehand" grip has a backhand application, and vice-versa (usually with slight adaptations of the finger positions). When the shuttle is level with the body, forehand and backhand grips are identical (or almost identical).

    As for "stretching your wrist more": wrist flexibility is generally not limited by muscles or tendons, but by the wrist joint itself. I don't believe flexibility training will do much for the range of motion of the wrist.

    Also, as a general point, muscular movements are more powerful in the normal range of a joint. Towards the limits of joint range, muscular movements are weaker. That's partly why we hit overheads at "full relaxed reach" -- that is, with a slightly bent arm, not a completely straight one.

    Any grip choice that forces you to play a power stroke at the edge of your range of motion will reduce power.

    I don't think your grip is wrong; I just think you're making it sound more exciting than it actually is. It looks like a bevel/basic grip to me, or a slight variant. Once we reach this level of detail, the differences are not relevant to teaching: players will learn minor grip adjustments much better by experimenting, rather than being given a "brand new grip" (which is really very similar to what they already use).

    Again, simplicity is key. Teaching a few simple grips (Badminton England has four) is more effective than teaching lots of grips. The way for players to gain subtlety with "in-between" grips is by their experimenting, and understanding some general principles (such as, adjust the angle of your grip depending on where the shuttle is).

    Anyway, as a recap for backhands (this is what I think, and what my national coaching body thinks):
    • Shuttle roughly level with body: use a bevel grip (or a basic grip)
    • Shuttle in front of body: move towards a thumb grip
    • Shuttle behind body: move towards a panhandle grip
    Last edited by Gollum; 03-13-2007 at 10:24 AM.

  7. #24
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    wow .. ty gollum and ssuly btw the recap for backhand which gollum said was very useful too. that solved my confusion

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    It could well be between the bevel and thumb grips. It's impossible to discern that level of detail from the photos.

    As for "stretching your wrist more": wrist flexibility is generally not limited by muscles or tendons, but by the wrist joint itself. I don't believe flexibility training will do much for the range of motion of the wrist.

    Also, as a general point, muscular movements are more powerful in the normal range of a joint. Towards the limits of joint range, muscular movements are weaker. That's partly why we hit overheads at "full relaxed reach" -- that is, with a slightly bent arm, not a completely straight one.

    Any grip choice that forces you to play a power stroke at the edge of your range of motion will reduce power.
    I really do understand that forehand grips and backhand grips could overlap each other when used to hit shuttles at the back or front of your body. Since maybe i'm not a coach, i'm not as patient as u in explaining every detail. When I said forehand clears or smash or others, what I meant is the most general way doing them. As doing them under specific circumstances could be done naturally or by experiments supported by common sense (as u said with ur simplicity theory).

    Let's go back to the issues:

    which one is more or less powerful, why?
    - you think that streching the wrist more would reduce the power. I agree but i believe that reduced in power is only significant when u strech your wrist too much. From scale 1-10, 10 is them maximum strech, my backhand grip only requires 2-3 for learners. As for me, I honestly don't feel any strech at all. However, learners avoid using this kind of grip because they don't feel comfortable in the first place. They would rather go for your backhand grip that is more comfortable in the first place. The point is that the feeling of discomfort would be gone when u have enough practice with it. Then, u'll get the power advantage of it.
    - As for the reasoning to why I think mine is more powerful is because the area of the thumb in mybackhand grip that is in contact with the grip is larger than the one in your backhand grip. Now, I hope we're agree that your thumb plays a crucial role in order to generate power for backhand. That larger area of thumb contact would yield in greater power generation. Not only it has larger contact area, but the direction of the force done by the thumb would be perpendicular to the plane. In your backhand grip, it can not be perpendicular because your thumb lies on the slope of the bevel.

    Again, my backhand grip should be used in order to make backhand clear, drive, or smash, in their most general form.

    In order to make things clear:

    Your backhand grip ("multipurpose" grip): Picture 3.jpg
    My backhand grip (between "multipurpose" and "full" thumb grip): Picture 4.jpg
    "full" thumb grip:Picture 5.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by ssuly; 03-13-2007 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by killersmash
    wow .. ty gollum and ssuly btw the recap for backhand which gollum said was very useful too. that solved my confusion
    no problem at all.. i hope u find something useful from our arguments.

  10. #27
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    Those photographs are much clearer. I can see now that you are correct: there is a distinct difference between the bevel grip and your backhand grip. Your grip is indeed between a bevel and thumb grip. (So we do have a real, and not merely apparent, difference of opinion.)

    In my view, this should produce less power, not more. Although you will be able to make the shuttle travel straight, your ability to rotate the arm should be reduced. This is similar to using a semi-panhandle grip for forehands: it feels more natural to many players, precisely because there is less rotation -- but the rotation gets you power.

    Of course, it depends on where the shuttle is. If it's more in front of you, then your grip is better.

    As with the forehand, the backhand hitting action should have the side of the frame leading, as though you are about to cut the shuttle with the frame. Then you turn it violently at the last moment, using the finger tightening to control the motion. Check out the slow-motion video of Zhao JianHua:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqiR2vVn-J8 (slow-motion clip at about 1:15)
    Last edited by Gollum; 03-13-2007 at 01:52 PM.

  11. #28
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    You mention that your grip has this advantage: "the direction of the force done by the thumb would be perpendicular to the plane". That's not relevant. The racket should not be moving in a plane, it should be rotating.

    You also mention that "That larger area of thumb contact would yield in greater power generation." I do not see why this should be true. Indeed, a reductio ad absurdum would show that, by the same principle, you ought to have all of your thumb in contact with the handle (a very tight grip!).

    What matters is that your thumb can control a sudden, violent rotation of the racket head as part of the grip tightening. The bevel grip does this better, when the shuttle is roughly level with the body. This rotation is what generates racket head speed.

    Why does rotation get more racket head speed? It's just the way we're built (biomechanics).
    Last edited by Gollum; 03-13-2007 at 02:21 PM.

  12. #29
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    I tend to side with gollum, as I use his type of gripping (very succesfully, compared to other grips) naturally (when it's behind my body)

    I find the whole "flexible wrist" misguiding...you'll see people who don't have to much wriststrength/proper technique have their wrist cocked back and doing a floppy action, often mistiming a powerless hit..

    I think the wrist should be reasonably taught (not gripping your racket hard, but just a bit stiff a wrist) This way your elbow moving upwards fast causes a sharp, fast wristsnap (hooray for biomechanics, I think) producing power and easy timing..

    until we dó have the high-speed wrist of taufik, I would advise against his big-swing wrist action...

  13. #30
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    Can anyone explain the powerball and a relevant website, thanks!
    Last edited by SlingShot; 03-13-2007 at 03:45 PM.

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlingShot
    Can anyone explain the powerball and a relevant website, thanks!
    dude...why post your reply(about nathan) in a TOTALLY different thread?

    how about http://www.powerball-europe.com/

  15. #32
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    to ssuly : you mean u barely stretch ur wrist?! after seeing the pictures i finally understand what is ur grip but do u using the thumb for more power?
    to gollum : i understand why u keep insisting the " multi purpose " grip is best for back hand clear after watching the video.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Overall which one is better? i will see how this thread goes

  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssuly
    Gollum, sorry for the broken link, I hope I did it correctly this time.
    Picture 1.jpg for the "full" thumb grip
    Picture 2.jpg for the backhand grip I suggested

    I totally agree with u that grips in badminton is very diverse depending on where u have to make the shot. I should say specifically that my backhand grip should be used for backhand clear, drive, or smash where the shuttle is at the side (could be a little bit to the front or to the back) of your body, but neither at the front nor at the back.

    I understand that I shouldn't use my credibility to gain dominance in this kind of argument. It's just that I'm new to this technique forum, and I just want to get a bit more positive view from my readers, that's all.
    A little off topic but nice racquet and new speakers!!

  17. #34
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    I incorporated use of the bevel grip after watching the Zhao Jianhua lesson. It is indeed useful for hitting shots in which the shuttle is already past the plane of one's body.

    Second, the bevel grip allows me to swing the racket head through a larger arc compared to the thumb grip, so it is more useful for building wrist strength when I am using a training racket with cover on for "shadow" stroke drills.

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