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  1. #35
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    they are juz great..
    let's juz hope they can maintain until de beijing olympic next year.
    win more super series 2!!
    we support u, kien keat, boon heong!!

  2. #36
    Regular Member phaarix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    Considering the limited numbers of matches (rounds) a player needs to get to the finals compared to Open SS tournaments, how worn out would that player be in the finals. In the qualifying rounds of a SS event it is common for a player to play more than once in the same event in a day. This can be considered tough for any player.
    And now stamina defines a great player does it? You're talking more how physically tough it would be now rather than arguing the skill and playing ability needed to win such an event.

    How can a player be considered great when they won their final due to the lack of energy of their opponent?

  3. #37
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    Consistancy is the key to success. And to be consistance you need to keep on working on the basic skill over and over again everyday through traning.

  4. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inky2000
    Let's take last year's 4*/5*/6* grand prix tournaments (I wanted to exclude 4* but then I found out the most prestiguous AE'06 was a 4* event, so ...) as examples and see who were the top MS players (i.e., potential world champions only) who skipped them (for whatever reason),

    Swiss Open - LD, BCL, CH, CJ, CY, KJ, Taufik
    AE - CY, Taufik
    China Masters - LCW, Taufik
    INA Open - LD, CH, CJ, PG
    Philippine Open - LD, BCL, LCW, CH, CJ, CY, PG, KJ, Taufik
    S'pore Open - LD, LCW, CJ, Taufik
    M'sia Open - BCL, CY, Taufik
    Chinese Taipei Open - BCL, CY, PG, KJ, Taufik
    Macau Open - PG, KJ
    Korea Open - LD, BCL, CH, CJ, PG, Taufik
    HK Open - BCL, PG, Taufik
    Japan Open - CJ, KJ
    China Open - LCW, PG, KJ
    Denmark Open - LD, BCL, LCW, CJ, Taufik

    And what about WC'06? Among the above-mentioned top players, the only one who missed WC'06 (and the reason: victim of country quota rules) is ... CY.

    So, if you compare the "cast list" between WC'06 and the above-listed events, which is the most competitive event?????
    Well, the statistics speak. I've just compiled the MD listing by following the same principle. As several teams broke up after WC'06, I've instead compiled the absentee list of events held during Jan-Aug 06, i.e., right before WC'06.

    Checking out potential world champions in WC'06 --> CY/FHF, JE/MLH, MK/HS, JJS/LYD, CTF/LWW, TG/CW, Luluk/Alven, KKK/CCM, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR

    (TG/CW's first international event after they paired up again was INA Open'06. Therefore, I didn't consider the pair being absentees in pre-INA Open'06 events.)

    Swiss Open - CY/FHF, JE/MLH, MK/HS, CTF/LWW, Luluk/Alven, LP/JR
    AE - LP/JR
    China M - JJS/LYD, MK/HS, CTF/LWW, Luluk/Alven, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR
    INA Open - CY/FHF, JE/MLH, CTF/LWW, KKK/CCM, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR
    PHI Open - CY/FHF, JE/MLH, JJS/LYD, MK/HS, CTF/LWW, TG/CW, Luluk/Alven, KKK/CCM, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR
    S'pore Open - CY/FHF, JJS/LYD, TG/CW, LP/JR
    MAS Open - JE/MLH, MK/HS, TG/CW, Luluk/Alven, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR
    Taipei Open - JE/MLH, MK/HS, CTF/LWW, TG/CW, Luluk/Alven, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR
    Macau Open - JE/MLH, MK/HS, TG/CW, Luluk/Alven, KKK/CCM, Anthony/Robert, LP/JR
    Kor Open - CY/FHF, MK/HS, CTF/LWW
    HK Open - JE/MLH, JJS/LYD, LP/JR

    WC'06 - TG/CW (They had only participated in 2 GP events prior to WC'06, i.e., very low ranking.), KKK/CCM (Because CCM's father passed away - an "emergency" case which is not WC's qualification rule's fault.)

    Being the most prestiguous GP event, AE'06 happened to attract more top MD pairs than WC'06 (but I didn't list down another "absent" pair of AE'06 - TG/CW, who hadn't paired up again till the middle of the year!). For other events, however, there were at least 3 top pairs who skipped each of them.
    If we combine both the MS and the MD listings, the statistics prove that WC'06 still managed to attract more top players than any GP event despite of its country quotas.

    I think the only scenario that could make 2cents and sabathiel's arguments valid is that a country dominates a particular category by having more than 4 players/pairs who ALL are potential world champions and at least one of them will not be qualified for WC due to country quotas. Consider China, I think only 3 of their MS players have realistic chances to become the next world champion in coming September (LD, BCL and CJ; while CY and CH could at most be spoilers rather than winners if they are qualified anyway, judging from their present form); same for WS and WD. No country is dominating MD and XD, so the country quota rule is not an issue in these two categories at all.

    From we the fans' point of view, more countries' participations may increase the level of the competitiveness as well. When a player faces an opponent from another country, he is fighting for his country's honors + his own reputation. On the other hand, when a player faces his own compatriot, he's only fighting for himself (and the two players might know each other's game paly too well because they train together; all these factors make their match less interesting). Frankly speaking, I might skip the TV telecast of all-China finals (most likely the WD finals) even if I'm a fan of Chinese players.
    Last edited by Inky2000; 03-20-2007 at 10:32 AM.

  5. #39
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Off topic-Just my 2 cents on this..Some interesting discussion..

    (sorry guys to jump in into the fray)... Just want to chime in on this rather trivial issue, if y'all don't mind..

    I understand the main points of the discussions, brought on by several members here. And all have their own valid points.
    However, IMO, it's really hard to "judge" or "argue" this event or that event is more "crucial" or "prestigious" than the other. Or if a player wins this and that title(s) but failed in getting an AE and/or OG and/or WC title, it will "reduce" that player's stature. Also, IMO, another factor in why certain BWF events are considered "elite" is because they have their own commercial implications.

    Just to take a non-badminton example. Take for example Federer, who we all know has been dominating the world of tennis the last few yrs, with all his accomplishments. Say, he has won all the Grand Slam events but then come the Olympics and he doesn't win the Gold. Does that mean he will be regarded as less of a legend because he doesn't win in the Olympics?..
    And let's take a badminton-related example. How abt out Peter Gade?? Has he won the AE, WC or even Olympics??..If he hasn't, does that diminish him of being one of the "greats of badminton"??..It's hard to argue..

    Anyways, I think in the end, all types of "elite" or all those so called "most prestigious" tourneys/events, such as All-England, World Championships, Olympics have their own respected prestige. IMO, winning all, 1, 2 or none of them doesn't diminish a player(s) stature in badminton history. It could be simply because of the history of the event and/or it could be because of their commercial/economic implications.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-20-2007 at 12:47 PM.

  6. #40
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    Ya, a great legend doesn't need to win the "prestige" tournament. Like the Netherland team which had Ruud Gullit, Van Basten and Frank Rijkaard, it never win the World Cup but it is still regarded one of the best national team in the history. And nowadays still got many soccer fans like to see their plays in videos.

  7. #41
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    In response to Phaarix last post:

    There is only so much a great and fit player can bear in terms of fitnes. Nobody is a Superman! There are numerous cases where a better player has lost in the finals to an inferior player because the better player has to endure gruelling and longer matches in the previous rounds. An example is Pulella Gopichand won AE 2001 beating Chen Hong in the finals. Chen Hong was physically drained after winning his semifinals in a long 3 set match while Gopichand had a relatively comofortable 2 sets win in the semifinals. We all know Chen Hong is a better player than Gopichand because Gopichand was a one tournament winner wonder. Imagine if a player had to go through numerous long 3 set matches before the finals and play against a player who had easy wins on the way to the final. There are limits to greatness because the body can only endure so much. And yes one of the criteria of being a great player is being physically fit. Stamina does define a great player just as much as skills and playing ability. What is the point of being skillful but you run out of steam to exercise those skills on court. One of the groundbreaking achievements of Rudy Hartono was that he lift the level of fitness of a badminton player to an unprecedented level with his training. Fitness is very important in badminton because it is a very fast game that may last up to 2 hours (old scoring system) or 1.5 hours (new scoring system).

  8. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ck1981
    Ya, a great legend doesn't need to win the "prestige" tournament. Like the Netherland team which had Ruud Gullit, Van Basten and Frank Rijkaard, it never win the World Cup but it is still regarded one of the best national team in the history. And nowadays still got many soccer fans like to see their plays in videos.
    The Nederland soccer team you are talking about won the 1988 European Championship which is the second greatest soccer tournament after the World Cup. That is a quite an achievement in itself!

  9. #43
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    [quote=ctjcad


    Just to take a non-badminton example. Take for example Federer, who we all know has been dominating the world of tennis the last few yrs, with all his accomplishments. Say, he has won all the Grand Slam events but then come the Olympics and he doesn't win the Gold. Does that mean he will be regarded as less of a legend because he doesn't win in the Olympics?..
    And let's take a badminton-related example. How abt out Peter Gade?? Has he won the AE, WC or even Olympics??..If he hasn't, does that diminish him of being one of the "greats of badminton"??..It's hard to argue..

    [/quote]

    Tennis is different to badminton. The Olympics tennis is not highly regarded by tennis players and the quality of participants at the Olympics for tennis is really low. Tennis is a true professional sport and the Olympics is considered an amateur event. Sure if you win all the 4 Grand Slam events (Wimbledon, US Open, French Open and Australian Open) plus the gold at the Olympics such as Steffi Graff in one calendar year (1988) it would boost your achievements (Steffi's achievement was called the Golden Slam).

    Peter Gade has won All England in 1999 beating the 17 year old Taufik Hidayat. Peter Gade has an impressive resume by winning numerous Grand Prix events and European Championships.

    I am afraid a lot of people these days use the term "great player" too liberally. There are many good players but very few great players. The greats are and should be in a different league than the good players. I am afraid to be in the category of great players a player would have to produce very good results in tournaments. Winning some of the prestigious tournaments would definitely help them to be placed in the category of the greats.

    Ivan Lendl was a great player but his achievements were tarnished by the fact that he never won Wimbledon but at least he won all the other Grand Slams numerous times. Pete Sampras won a record 14 Grand Slam tournaments but his achievements were tarnished by the fact that he has never won the French Open (clay court) but he is still a great player. Andre Agassi only won 8 grand slams but he has won all the 4 grand slam tournaments at least once including the French Open and he is also a great player. It remains to be seen if Fedrerer can win the French Open on clay as well as win a all the 4 Grand Slam tournaments in one calendar year like Rod Laver (who did it twice). If Federer can do that than he deserves to be called the "greatest tennis player of all time".

    So results and records are not to be dismissed in judging a player's greatness. What is the point of calling a player great if he doesn't win tournaments no matter how great his skills are on court. The prestigious tournaments gives more prestige because people remember the winners more.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    The Nederland soccer team you are talking about won the 1988 European Championship which is the second greatest soccer tournament after the World Cup. That is a quite an achievement in itself!
    Well, according to their standards, they should have won the World Cup twice. I dun think European Championship is good enough because the South Americans giants like Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Columbia didn't participate.
    Okie, there's no point arguing more and more. The example I give here is just to show that a legend doesn't need to win all the "prestige" championships.

  11. #45
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    Whether a tournament is prestigious or not depends on the state of mind. If a vast majority of people think the All-England is prestigious, then it is prestigious. It has none to do with prize money or competitiveness or level of attendance.

    However, tournaments which are deemed to be prestigious are by nature, more competitive and more highly attended. Players look forward to these prestigious tournaments and are geared towards it. Even more than the other events, players will fight to the last in what they deem prestigious events.

  12. #46
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    I think this is going way off the road....

  13. #47
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    great players are not great because of the tournaments that they won. i believe great players are determined by their tenacity, consistency, personality, spirit and being humbled by all the above. domination is the one being determined by how many tournaments have been won by a player. but really great players are above that. i have always respected humble champions. for they know they are probably not the best and probably will not dominate for too long but while they are up there, they will enjoy it and enjoy their fans. so really, what are you guys looking for, great players or players who dominate. because you see, agassi have always been a great player to me even when he was supposedly below pete sampras and roger federer. go figure. he he he.

  14. #48
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    Default Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjl_vanguard
    I think this is going way off the road....
    The richest thoughts and discoveries are revealed when people go way off the road........don't you think so?

  15. #49
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Off topic-Yes, thanks for rectifying..

    Quote Originally Posted by sabathiel
    Peter Gade has won All England in 1999 beating the 17 year old Taufik Hidayat. Peter Gade has an impressive resume by winning numerous Grand Prix events and European Championships.
    ..yes, he indeed won it ..*sigh* how can i totally overlooked that ..So at least, if doesn't win the WC and/or Olympics, at least he can go into the sunset with that title and i believe with many2 more titles as you mentioned(most of them from European tournaments)..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-21-2007 at 12:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift
    The richest thoughts and discoveries are revealed when people go way off the road........don't you think so?
    yes.. true enough....
    but we're really offfffffffffff topic... ahahaha

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ck1981
    Well, according to their standards, they should have won the World Cup twice. I dun think European Championship is good enough because the South Americans giants like Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Columbia didn't participate.
    Okie, there's no point arguing more and more. The example I give here is just to show that a legend doesn't need to win all the "prestige" championships.
    I am not arguing I am adding information.

    I said the European Championship is the second greatest soccer tournament. Europe is more competitive overall than South America so the Euro Championships qualifies as the second best achievement after the World Cup. The only competitive team that comes from South America in the last half century or so are Brazil and Argentina. Uruguay hasn't done well in the World Cup for more than half a century. Since when is Colombia considered a soccer giant? Europe has Germany, France, England, Italy, Nederlands who are considered at the elite level not to mention Czech Republic, Russia, Turkey, Croatia, Greece etc.

    The Nederlands is considered a giant because of the players it produces such as Johann Cruyff, Marco Van Basten, Gullit etc. Also becoming runner-ups twice consecutively in 1974 and 1978 is an achievement in itself on top of the European Championships in 1988. Europe is the most competitive soccer continent in the world and they have more countries competing for the title of European Champion than ay other continent that is why they have qualifying rounds.

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