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  1. #103
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    I get to admit. The exchange is getting more interesting.

  2. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete LSD View Post
    I get to admit. The exchange is getting more interesting.
    ha, I feel the same way Pete

  3. #105
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    [quote=twobeer;682355]
    Of course you se few "good" players playing with plastics, as they know better :-)
    yes, ok...

    .. I've played plastic with some of the national top-level players here..
    oh really how it comes



    But really good players here NEVER use plastic for training, games (even for fun games)
    Ok, but what you mean by a really good player? Just national-level players? Than you are right, such people would hardly ever use plastics.

    But this are maybe just 1% from the players in a country. In germany they are about 220.000 club members and national level are the 2 top divisions, 8 teams in the first division + 16 teams in the second, with about 10 players each team, so ca 250 people. (Even in the second division are some players WBF ranked in the top 100, like Navickas Kestutis - 68 orRaul Must - 94). This players are a least semi-pros!

    What about the rest? Arnt they any good?

    I dare to think that a good player is a player that belong to the best 20% players from a country. Maybe you would consider this to generous
    I speak form such a level.

    Of course, competitiveley in germany we play just with feather, even in the 2. Hobby-Liga
    (the lowest league at the bottom of the 16. divisions-system with the 1. national league at the top)

    ...and in the hobby-league are really just hobby players...

    ..Why bother if you just can win with a flat non-angled smash, thats insanely hard..
    Errr, a flat non-angled smash thats insanely hard wil go......OUT



    Apart from, that I don't think its really true as the Plastic has a much flatter trajecotory (on slices as well), dropping like a stone is hardly what I consider a good shuttle :-)
    Well, this is my impression when comparing mavis 350 in slow with as 30 in "3", indeed flatter but in the end just like a stone, and this is really not a "good shuttle" because you have to run a little bit more then for feather, maybe 10-20 centimeters but thats actually a lot, again maybe this is just my impression.


    I don't have any trouble to play well with mavis, performance wise.. But it destroys all fun in the game!!..
    Well i beg to differ, thats what i want to say here: its maybe another kind of badminton but its fun
    You can play with fast shuttles, then you have a smash battle like in no competion-game, or you take a slow one and then is looks a bit like women doubles with reaaally long rallys.

    Maybe im not that serious about this sport



    P.S. Are you saying top player in the Bonn area regularly plays plastics???
    no way, see above.
    Last edited by bdbc74; 10-07-2007 at 10:20 PM.

  4. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    One missing feather does not usually affect the speed to an extreme (you can also still adjust it by tipping), but it makes the flight wobbly, so of course its not a "good" shuttle.. but it has to be severly broke to even come close in Mavis crapiness :-)
    its pretty tough to tip the feathers to adjust to a broken shuttle when we have to tip on average, every four in order to get our shuttles down to playing speed. i'm not sure how much it needs to be done in other provinces, but in alberta, thats what we have to do.

    The plastic just fosters wrong technice (more arm, due to the more heavy feel than a feather). and as the trajecory is f-ed of by default any placement shots, or net-playe will pretty much a waste of training (if you are advanced)..
    i wouldn't say it fosters wrong technique.
    you probably only say it fosters wrong technique because of the following:
    greater number of poor technique plastic users than poor technique feather users IN YOUR AREA.
    if you went to china, you'd see a ton of players with poor technique using feathers... would you get to say that feathers foster poor technique?

    Only lower-level players and recreational players use plastics here.. in torunaments, leagues etc its all feathers.. So generlly if someone comes up tells me he only plays plastic, it's a good give-away he is not a competetetive level player!

    If you already have the skill techique, you are of course using it regardles of shuttle. But I found out people who use plastic and are not complete newbies, tend to use slower shuttles to offset their greater smashing speed, to make it at least possible to get some smashes back.
    okay, sure, so he's recreational, but does that mean he's not competitive?
    jody patrick, an ex member of the national canadian squad is a recreational player now. why? cuz she's not a national player anymore! but would anyone say she's not competitive level?
    and i've seen her play with plastics (mavis 300) on numerous occasions, when she dropped by the university of alberta to play (few years back) with a few of her colleages. its just as good as when she was playing with as50s and other top grade feather shuttles when playing national level tournaments!

    about the speed of the shuttle again, who cares if the shuttle can possibly fly super fast?
    is it not possible that the smash wasn't that fast, but it felt fast because you were just THAT out of position when you received that smash?
    maybe it just means that you have to be just THAT much faster?

    you say that good players can play well with plastics, correct? thats my interpretation of what you said.
    but then you go and say that they lack deception and small strokes?
    i thought small strokes and movements lead to deception, and deception is part of the complete arsenal for a good player.
    i've seen plenty of deception when it comes to plastic.

    This usually makes it hard to use wristy/forearm shots, and players tend to use more body and arm in the shots..so their technique doesnt improve and they usually rely only on a smash, not much on deception..Why bother if you just can win with a flat non-angled smash, thats insanely hard..
    blame the player... why blame the equipment?
    i thought that applies to a ton of stuff in badminton, so why not include this case as well?

    and finally, we have no technique, flat smashes, and insanely fast shuttles?
    well, who cares? you dont' HAVE to retrieve that.
    why hit it? its going to be out...
    and if its always out, then how can they rely on winning games with that?
    oh wait, you're right. it IS insanely hard to win with that. not only is it insanely hard, but its impossible!

    i see lots of contradictions in your argument that needs resolution.
    Last edited by chickenpoodle; 10-07-2007 at 10:19 PM.

  5. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    Errr, a flat non-angled smash thats insanely hard wil go......OUT
    No joke this time, really!!! When the shuttle is that fast it will go out!
    baaahaha, this is awesome. we think alike.

  6. #108
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    Originally Posted by bdbc74
    Errr, a flat non-angled smash thats insanely hard wil go......OUT
    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    baaahaha, this is awesome. we think alike.
    We know this from bitter experience

  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    its pretty tough to tip the feathers to adjust to a broken shuttle when we have to tip on average, every four in order to get our shuttles down to playing speed. i'm not sure how much it needs to be done in other provinces, but in alberta, thats what we have to do.
    And one of the 3 speeds of a mavis 300 is perfect speed each time out of the tube in Alberta???

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    i wouldn't say it fosters wrong technique.
    you probably only say it fosters wrong technique because of the following:
    greater number of poor technique plastic users than poor technique feather users IN YOUR AREA.
    if you went to china, you'd see a ton of players with poor technique using feathers... would you get to say that feathers foster poor technique?
    If you went to ANY country where plastics are not common, there's a greater chance you will se LOTS of much better players and technique than you see in Alberta!!! Especially in China!

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    okay, sure, so he's recreational, but does that mean he's not competitive?
    jody patrick, an ex member of the national canadian squad is a recreational player now. why? cuz she's not a national player anymore! but would anyone say she's not competitive level?
    and i've seen her play with plastics (mavis 300) on numerous occasions, when she dropped by the university of alberta to play (few years back) with a few of her colleages. its just as good as when she was playing with as50s and other top grade feather shuttles when playing national level tournaments!
    Well, then why don't you ask her to share her views in this Forum, and tell me I am wrong, that she feels playing with plastics is just as good/fun as playing with AS-50's :-).. I have yet to meet a good player saying they like to train, play with Mavis shuttle (given a choice to use feathers). Did you really ask her, how she felt about plastic vs. feathers, and if she felt that Mavis is a s good enough to replace an AS-50??

    I am frankly much more interrested in her assesment of the difference of the shuttles,than your assesment of the fact that you saw her use plastic shuttles on a non-training, non competetive situation? :-)

    Btw, I think she lost in the round of 32 in the 2004 olympics against Johanna and Fredrik of Sweden

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    about the speed of the shuttle again, who cares if the shuttle can possibly fly super fast?
    If you don't care about speed, and trajectory then obviously plastic shuttles are just fine.. (and rubber balls as well, or ninja stars :-) )

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    is it not possible that the smash wasn't that fast, but it felt fast because you were just THAT out of position when you received that smash?
    maybe it just means that you have to be just THAT much faster?
    I was refferring to my own smash, when I am in a bad position or late, I can hit a smash with plastic that has a great chance of winning the point, but with feather, hitting the smash in bad positions would be suicidal, against a good player..


    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    you say that good players can play well with plastics, correct? thats my interpretation of what you said.
    yepp. I don't confuse player skill with equipment.. A good player is a good player, a bad shuttle is a bad shuttle.. very easy to separate the two :-)
    A good player however is more likely to appreciate good shuttles :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    but then you go and say that they lack deception and small strokes?
    i thought small strokes and movements lead to deception, and deception is part of the complete arsenal for a good player.
    i've seen plenty of deception when it comes to plastic.
    If you can win points to easilly without being deceptive, why use deception? Why slice, and flick if I can hit it 400km/h high on the opponents body??

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    blame the player... why blame the equipment?
    i thought that applies to a ton of stuff in badminton, so why not include this case as well?
    Nowere have I said a good player is not ABLE to make deceptive shots with plastic.. But the speed and trajectory dosn't encourage this type of play.

    So if two equally good players meet, using plastics the one just hitting hard and going for one-shot kills and don't rely on deceptive shots will most likely win..

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    and finally, we have no technique, flat smashes, and insanely fast shuttles?
    well, who cares? you dont' HAVE to retrieve that.
    why hit it? its going to be out...
    and if its always out, then how can they rely on winning games with that?
    oh wait, you're right. it IS insanely hard to win with that. not only is it insanely hard, but its impossible!
    It just a matter of a few degrees of angle if the flat smash goes out or hits the base line.. So of course all flat smashes are not going to go out even if the shuttle is insanly fast...

    It will just be 300 km/h plus when hitting the baseline

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenpoodle View Post
    i see lots of contradictions in your argument that needs resolution.
    Hope you find some resolution...

    /Twobeer

  8. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    Ok, but what you mean by a really good player? Just national-level players? Than you are right, such people would hardly ever use plastics.

    But this are maybe just 1% from the players in a country. In germany they are about 220.000 club members and national level are the 2 top divisions, 8 teams in the first division + 16 teams in the second, with about 10 players each team, so ca 250 people. (Even in the second division are some players WBF ranked in the top 100, like Navickas Kestutis - 68 orRaul Must - 94). This players are a least semi-pros!

    What about the rest? Arnt they any good?
    Are you using plastic below the first to divisions in germany?? Do you have have any divisions innational leauges using plastic???? How about U13,U15,U17 tournaments? plastic or feathers??

    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    I dare to think that a good player is a player that belong to the best 20% players from a country. Maybe you would consider this to generous
    I speak form such a level.
    Don't think you can make that generalization between different countries.. and 20% of what.. 20% of players who regurlarly compete, or 20% of anyone who ever plays badminton, or 20% of anyone who playes weekly???

    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    Of course, competitiveley in germany we play just with feather, even in the 2. Hobby-Liga
    (the lowest league at the bottom of the 16. divisions-system with the 1. national league at the top)
    aah, sorry, this answered my first question.. And it makes sense.. So many players use feathers in Bonn

    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    ...and in the hobby-league are really just hobby players...
    Yes, even if it's a hobby, it makes perfect sense use proper shuttles when competing!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    Errr, a flat non-angled smash thats insanely hard wil go......OUT
    true.. I was exagerating abit with "non-angle", I should refrase it flat with very-slight angle, it will be insanely hard and drop close to the baseline...

    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    Well, this is my impression when comparing mavis 350 in slow with as 30 in "3", indeed flatter but in the end just like a stone, and this is really not a "good shuttle" because you have to run a little bit more then for feather, maybe 10-20 centimeters but thats actually a lot, again maybe this is just my impression.
    I don't think I fully get what you say here, but I think I agree sort of with it

    Quote Originally Posted by bdbc74 View Post
    Well i beg to differ, thats what i want to say here: its maybe another kind of badminton but its fun

    You can play with fast shuttles, then you have a smash battle like in no competion-game, or you take a slow one and then is looks a bit like women doubles with reaaally long rallys.

    Maybe im not that serious about this sport
    Heck, I have no argument with that..Even if speedminton, tennis or playing with ninja-starts or whatever is your thing, Who am I to say you are wrong!

    The most important thing is to have fun.. and If you feel playing with plastics is just as fun (or more fun) than using feathers, then it's all good, right..

    I am just wenting my personal opinion that

    a) I personally think it's a lot less fun using plastic
    b) they are very different from feather
    c) even broken feather shuttles fly more "feather like" than new plastics
    d) most good players prefer to use the slightly more expensive goose feather shuttles, because of their "superior" flight properties.

    /Twobeer

  9. #111
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    ppl, keep fanning the fires.
    this thread is more interesting with each passing post

  10. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by t3tsubo View Post
    ppl, keep fanning the fires.
    this thread is more interesting with each passing post


    /Twobeer

  11. #113
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    TB,

    Please keep us entertained since cooldoob is no longer around .

  12. #114
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    There is fanning the flame and there are total BS. TB is great at first and speaking the truth. While CD6 is total BS...

    Keep up the good work twobeer. I will drink one for that.

  13. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    There is fanning the flame and there are total BS. TB is great at first and speaking the truth. While CD6 is total BS...

    Keep up the good work twobeer. I will drink one for that.
    excellent point (i mean good discussion versus total BS).
    Last edited by cooler; 10-08-2007 at 04:41 PM.

  14. #116
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    I second Master SH! Let's have FourBeer .

    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    There is fanning the flame and there are total BS. TB is great at first and speaking the truth. While CD6 is total BS...

    Keep up the good work twobeer. I will drink one for that.

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete LSD View Post
    I second Master SH! Let's have FourBeer .
    hahaha, too many masters in bf we should hold a BC master tournament

  16. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete LSD View Post
    TB,

    Please keep us entertained since cooldoob is no longer around .
    Somehow I feel that remark is deeply insulting...

    /T

  17. #119
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    My apology as I was sparse with words .

    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    Somehow I feel that remark is deeply insulting...

    /T

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