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  1. #35
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    Default A Solution?

    The recent unfortunate incident involving Badminton Men's Singles World Number 1 Lin Dan's outburst in Seoul clearly signals for a change in the Badminton World Federation's (BWF) adjudication system. The allegedly biased line calls, that subsequently caused much controversy in the badminton community obviously needs to be addressed to suite the growing demands for accountability and fairplay from not only the player, but badminton fans worldwide.

    Understanding that the BWF has limited funds and resources, as this has been the reason given by the BWF for not wanting to install the immensely popular 'Hawkeye' system, the solution might lie in using and manipulating existing technology. Taking a leaf out of the sport of Cricket, which have implemented the 'Third Umpire' adjudicating system, where a disputed line call can be reviewed by another umpire by using video replays, the BWF can easily modify the existing technology to improve the adjudication system. If viewers in front of the television watching the badminton broadcast can clearly see whether the shuttlecock landed 'in' or 'out', it shouldn't be an overly tedious task for another umpire to do so.

    Additionally, the BWF can follow what the Tennis Authorities have done, which is to give each player a set amount of incorrect challenges. The fine details, I am sure can be easily implemented and decided by the BWF.


    Full article: The Badminton Blog - A Solution?

    ps: I plan to send this letter to The Star newspaper editor tomorrow. Any comment is largely appreciated.

  2. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by vching View Post
    The recent unfortunate incident involving Badminton Men's Singles World Number 1 Lin Dan's outburst in Seoul clearly signals for a change in the Badminton World Federation's (BWF) adjudication system. The allegedly biased line calls, that subsequently caused much controversy in the badminton community obviously needs to be addressed to suite the growing demands for accountability and fairplay from not only the player, but badminton fans worldwide.

    Understanding that the BWF has limited funds and resources, as this has been the reason given by the BWF for not wanting to install the immensely popular 'Hawkeye' system, the solution might lie in using and manipulating existing technology. Taking a leaf out of the sport of Cricket, which have implemented the 'Third Umpire' adjudicating system, where a disputed line call can be reviewed by another umpire by using video replays, the BWF can easily modify the existing technology to improve the adjudication system. If viewers in front of the television watching the badminton broadcast can clearly see whether the shuttlecock landed 'in' or 'out', it shouldn't be an overly tedious task for another umpire to do so.

    Additionally, the BWF can follow what the Tennis Authorities have done, which is to give each player a set amount of incorrect challenges. The fine details, I am sure can be easily implemented and decided by the BWF.


    Full article: The Badminton Blog - A Solution?

    ps: I plan to send this letter to The Star newspaper editor tomorrow. Any comment is largely appreciated.
    NST already commented along similar lines. Take a look at their points & see if you want to add any :
    http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/N...cle/index_html

  3. #37
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    I am suggesting that they use existing technology. If you suggest them to use Hawkeye, they will just say tht they don't have enough funds etc etc.

  4. #38
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    I suggest playing at Papua New Guinea, Mauritius, or some neutral country.

    Or sack IBF president & top management for not doing their job.

    Taufik already complain about that long time ago, but no action taken by IBF.

  5. #39
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    There is an existing post for this subject, isn't there? Should merge with it.

  6. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by coops241180 View Post
    one problem with action replay camera's... players foot in the way of the camera?
    if the line is called 'unseen' the point is played again - this would allow a 'dishonest' player an advantage - if the shuttle landed near the line he could get between the linejudge and the camera. once the umpire called for replay he wouldn't be able to call it either and the point would be replayed..

    this would be ideal for shots left at the back ie, flick serves.
    Imagine how the linesmen do it. They only put one linesmen for each line on the same court. For example on the backline, there is only one person watching. So same number of linesmen, same number of camera, and that's 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by coops241180 View Post
    we also have to consider the amount of time it takes to use these replays - if you have 10 camera's it could take some time to cue up the exact fractions of a second that the shuttle landed in - not something the umpire wants to waste time doing, so you need a backroom staff to manage the replays so that they could be available at short notice..

    tennis manages this by having the hawkeye system - a combination of 3d modelling and camera's built into the individual venues (at substantial cost i'd imagine) and then using the machine to decide what to show.

    this doesn't work for badminton because the shuttle is an irregular shape and difficult for the computer to resolve against the rest of the image..
    Realistically, there will only be 6 of them at most. Hawkeye system also takes some time to replay the shot. How long does it take for the TV broadcasters to make an instant replay? Very little.
    And of course, there will be a backroom staff. You can transfer some of the linesmen to work into the media room. That is easily done.
    You don't need a computer with 3d modeling to judge a line call, human eyes are still the best at judging that, especially for birdies.


    Quote Originally Posted by coops241180 View Post
    on top of that it's rare to get courts in arena's on their own apart from on finals day.. and then the mounts for the camera's would end up between the crowd and the court.. not ideal.

    i fear there is no really satisfactory solution to this problem until software that can resolve the shuttle in 99.9% of cases is developed.. anyone fancy a project?
    CCTV cams are small, just like a webcam. Just fix them on the ground, and that's it. What more do you want? We're not talking big semi-pro camcorders. You only need a cam with average quality at 30 fps.
    You seem to put a lot in computing technologies. As much as a tech freak that I am, I still believe human judgement is still the best for now.

    At most, for all the necessary equipment for two courts, it won't be more than 2,000$. BWF can invest in it and avoid some serious bad badminton marketing due to bad linecall... And can even attract more sponsors.

  7. #41
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    6 camera's... i would say 10 - since you can't go moving those camera's to swap between singles and doubles - make it 12 since you need two for doubles.. (high service line)

    you say transfer the line judges to the backroom staff - the line judges are all volunteers, they aren't going to know how to work the kit that controls televison replays. - the hawkeye system cuts out this human element... it may not be instantaneous - but the delay is acceptable for the pace of tennis. badminton is far quicker

    i think if there was a simple solution the BWF would have implemented it..

  8. #42
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    It may seem... cheap... but scotch tape will largely suffice to fix those cams. And 6 is enough for singles and doubles. Have you ever seen a challenge for the service lines in double? Never.
    Also, I never said that you will replace linesmen. Those cams are here for the player challenges.
    You're right though, volunteers may not know how to use video equipments. But in the media room, you'll just need at most two technicians to man the videos, and someone behind (one linesmen is sufficient) to judge the line call on instant replay.

    And I highly doubt BWF are professional enough to manage efficiently their organisation. After all, the crew are mostly badminton players in the past (ie. Punch Gun). If you did put someone with great management and leadership skills at the head of BWF, things would change. In my opinion, the BWF should be managed like any Fortune 500 company, like any sucessful business. Tennis does it really well. There is no reason why badminton can't do it as well.

  9. #43
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    I think BWF should start using the hawk eyes on semi-fianls & finals, ie on centre court only if they don't have enough money since most of the first & second round games are not that critical. This hawk eye system should be implemented asap so that everybody can have enough time to adapt before the Olympic.

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    I think if we just have linesman that'll do their job correctly, like not favoring for the home team or not paying attention. It should be all ok.

  11. #45
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    A lot of people are mentioning Hawk Eye, thinking that it's only a money issue. Well, my intuition (being trained as a physicist) is that the both the physics and the image recognition issues are vastly more difficult in badminton than in tennis. Even if the image recognition issue can be resolved, the trajectory and the air drag could well be impossible to calculate, not to mention there is also the draft (which I'm sure is impossible to take into account).

  12. #46
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    If money is the matters,that's why we need the badminton equipment companies support.

  13. #47
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    I don't know why the threads were merged. What I was proposing was an entirely different thing. Its not Hawk Eye.

    Its like the cricket third umpiring system. Solves all the problems. No bias, no need more money (we already have the existing equipment).

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    Ultimately the players should accept the officials call regardless of whether the player thinks its right or wrong, and then move onto the next rally.

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    Would you let a match slip away at 20-19 with a baseline gamble? If its smash across a sideline, you didn't get in anyway, or hoped it was out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coachgary View Post
    Ultimately the players should accept the officials call regardless of whether the player thinks its right or wrong, and then move onto the next rally.
    Yes, but it is frustrating for players, and also for audience, if bwf doesnt take every measure to ensure rules are being properly enforced..

    With rally scoring these calls gets VERY important, and ensuring good line-calls should really be a priority for BWF.

    I am also abit annoyed that the rule of continous play between 0-11,11-21 is poorly enforced by judges.. Much too often allows towel, drinking etc. and other rests.. but thats another thread

    -Twobeer

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