Improving around the head shot

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by molohov, Jul 21, 2007.

  1. molohov

    molohov Regular Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I play doubles mostly. I am not a big fan of backhand drops or clears when playing from the back of the court. I'd rather keep the attack. Therefore it is of importance to me that I use my around the head shot whenever I can. But, to me, this is one of the most difficiult shots to perfect.

    I have come to discuss this with, hopefully, those who have good knowledge of this technique.

    First things first. Where to hit the shuttle. Although it is called an around the head shot (hell, i'm calling it ATHS now), sometimes the shuttle is hit still on the forehand side of the body (if you can picture it, above the shoulder), right above the head, or opposite the forehand side.

    Now I know that to play a good ATHS, or any shot for that matter, one has to be in position. But what kind of position? First query: what is the ideal position to hit an ATHS? Forehand side, right above the head, backhand side?

    Now with overhead shots, the arm can be used to increase the speed and power of the shot. That is to say, instead of using all pronation, one can combine their entire body movement to power the shot. But with an ATHS, the position is often awkward. What is the best course of arm action with a ATHS? Pure pronation, or trying to whip the arm like with a good overhead shot?

    Footwork. Toughest part. Professionals seem to have some very unique and varied footwork when it comes to ATHS'. Of course, the most common scenario to play an ATHS is coming from the forehand side and chasseing to the ATH. For good power in an overhead shot, the back leg (usually the racket leg) remains behind and is brought forward to complete the transfer of body movement.

    Now with an ATHS, this is slightly weirder. Normally the shot is played with the body completely parallel to the net so that no foot is behind another. In this case, how can there be sufficient body movement transfered into the shot? Does the shot then become pure flick and no arm? Footwork, how should this be dealt with?

    I appreciate all input into this discussion. This should be interesting.
     
  2. Athelete1234

    Athelete1234 Regular Member

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    Well, a split step is useful for getting there in time (it's a short hop when your opponent hits the bird, so you can react faster BTW), so you will react faster, and be able to reach it. I'm not the best at the ATHS, but when I do it, it's mostly whipping my forearm forwards, and using my wrist for extra power.

    As for positioning, seeing as it's around your head it should be slightly on your left hand (right, if you're a lefty) side. Just a bit, or you won't be able to reach it.

    Apologies for not being able to answer all of your questions though. Hopefully I've helped a bit...
     
  3. martin8768

    martin8768 New Member

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    umm for around the head my hand is right above my head on contact, so a racket distance is where im placed to hit the shuttle and i swing a normal forehand but i bring my hand above my head instead of like up and infront, its up above my head and i pronate my wrist for all the power, a little of the power is momentum and arm i suppose but is a very very wristy move. maybe i can make a picture... good luck i hope my explanation is understandable.
     
  4. martin8768

    martin8768 New Member

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    [​IMG]
    okay so here is my horrible photo please excuse me its the middle of the night and i don't want to fire up photoshop haha, so just another not, here is were i usually hit my ATHS, approximately above your opposite shoulder, results may vary depending on flexibility :p and follow through crossing back over your body so your racket is back in ready position! good luck and good night.
     
    #4 martin8768, Jul 21, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2007
  5. chickenpoodle

    chickenpoodle Regular Member

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    i always viewed around the head shots to be having no real "base of technique".
    an around the head is a shot we take when we are out of position so that there is no ideal position or anything, and that it is a last ditch effort.
    we would rather have got there early enough to hit it the way we'd like, and since we didn't, we are forced to either take the weak backhand stroke, or more preferably, the around the head.

    anything as little as slightly past our head, or a full body stretch and a shot taken with as far a reach as possible is this "around the head".

    so instead of trying to figure out proper technique for a situation we would rather not be in, how about we all get back to the court and work on our basics?

    ultimately, the footwork we use to do the around the head should be the same as any other forehand shot, right? we'll try to do something that'll let us transition from this one shot to the next with as little "down time" as possible. generating power without the legs is possible. remember that some of the power generation isn't from our legs, but also our body, our core muscles. the abs comes into the play, and we may alreayd do this unconsciously, from breathing techniques to other various ways to tightening the abs during our stroke.

    note!
    i'm not trying to put down anyone or anything here, as i'm sure there are others who agree with what i say. i am forced to do a ton of around the heads too, especially when playing mixed, so i have a lot of work to do too.
    either i get caught cheating, or out of position, bad decision making, anything, that puts me on the forehand side when i'm not supposed to be.
     
    #5 chickenpoodle, Jul 22, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2007
  6. jerby

    jerby Regular Member

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    the ideal situation for ATH shots is just getting the proper footwork (scissorsjump in most cases) and hitting the ATH like a forhand.

    a common mistake (made by everybody, because soemtimes you just don't have the time) is to stop rotating your body, and/or hitting the shuttle waay over your left shoulder.
    Both 'mistakes' (as far as they can be called that) limit your stroke-variety and power. I'll get to the aprt why pro's do it diversly in a minute

    My advsie would be to work on your footwork, watch a lot of pro's, keep rotating and msot importantly: try and hard as possible to keep the shuttle in front of you! (working a little harder to get the shuttle infront of you is a better practise than being lazy and hoping you can still make a good example. Lin Dan is a good example of a player who's very focussed on keeping everything in front of his body.

    Now, why do pro's have such a varied technique for ATH shots? First off would be the difference between singels and doubles: a different starting point results in a different angle of aproach. a single player will be more tempted to do a siccorsjump, because it benefits his goals (back to his center, able to move forward quick).
    A doubles player mostly hit his around the head shot either from moving back (in which case he does the singles-type footwork) or moving sideways: from on side of the backcourt to the other. In this case a scissors kick is futile (and lethargic to do) and you'll see most of them choose to do a two-legged or one-legged blockjump sideways. From what I've seen Tan Boon Heong does this very explicitly.

    All of this is terrible theorical offcourse, nobody is always on time and able to get the shuttle on the right spot, but that's no excuse to "lean over" all the time. Nice example of players when they hit the ATH shot when they're on time are Bao Chun Lai, hitting it high, right above his head and using a stroke a lot like a forehand.
    for a player with an excellent ATH shot when he's not on time, look up some Mixed doubles of Zeng Bo (the one currently partnering Gao Ling?)
     
  7. MikeBee

    MikeBee Regular Member

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    Well there is nothing ideal about an over the head shot, its just making the most out of a bad situation.

    My advice is to bend your waist, do everything else the same and try not to fall over. How far you can bend depends on you but if its further left than your left shoulder then I would just use backhand instead.

    A clear to the left corner is probably the safest shot to play. Dropshots to the right are difficult to judge requiring a little more power and clears to the right corner would probably loose power due to all the twisting. But like the others have said if you want to practice something then practice your footwork.
     
  8. jerby

    jerby Regular Member

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    I don't mean to be offensive, but do you mean there's a corner ont he court where you'll never be able to attack?

    how easy a singles game, where playing to a corner (just a corner, not a specific shot, but a corner) results in a player not being able to attack...

    I don't mean to sound like my around-the-head-shot is perfect, offcourse it isn't...but it's more than "just making the most out of it". Actually, in my case a lot of the smarter opponents put more pressure on my forehand...

    some pics for info:
    the "ohh darn I'm in trouble around-the-head which some of you appear to be describing [​IMG]
    and the around-the-head as one should strive to hit it, above your head/shoulders [​IMG]
     
    #8 jerby, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  9. MikeBee

    MikeBee Regular Member

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    No, I can attack from any corner of the court assuming I can reach the shuttle.

    I did not say anything about not being able to attack. I can attack very well using around the head shots. However they are less than ideal and shots are harder to judge. So moving under the shuttle is always preferable.

    I was refering to the situation in your second photo as I said

    I don't know about the professionals but I have seen many people use around the head shots and smash the shuttle straight into the net. If they could get there faster then they would have fewer problems.
     
  10. jerby

    jerby Regular Member

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    then why call it a bad situation?
    sorry, it seems I completly misread your post...my fault and I'm sorry..
     
  11. MikeBee

    MikeBee Regular Member

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    maybe "bad situation" is too strong, maybe I should have said "less than ideal situation" or "a more pressured situation". Hence moving your feet could take off the pressure.

    Sorry for any confusion
     
    #11 MikeBee, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  12. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Confusion arises because of unclear terminology.

    "Around the head" can be used to describe the specific technique (hitting forehand overheads with the racket towards your backhand side), but it is also sometimes used to describe playing any forehand in the backhand corner.

    Obviously it is preferable to use an ordinary forehand action as much as possible. The farther out to the backhand side you have to lean, the less threatening your strokes will be.
     
  13. molohov

    molohov Regular Member

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    Thanks for the input, guys!

    True enough that the ATHS is more of a backup/excuse for not arriving at the shuttle fast enough. But sometimes, mostly in doubles attack, one does not have enough time to return to centre after hitting a powerful smash that often comes back before they one has time to return to the center.

    Back to technical matters. Do you guys think that chasseing is the fastest way to move side to side (doubles attack here still) in order to reach the shuttle and play the shot? (In a righty's case, chasse left. Lefty, chasse right.)

    I think watching Fu Haifeng and Lin Dan play their ATHS is quite amazing. They move fast enough to play the shot like a forehand, even when moving backwards and into their backhand corner. Their end body position is with their body leaning towards the backhand corner but their arm straight up into the air thundering down their racquet.

    I tried to find some pictures, didn't have much luck:
    [​IMG]

    Essentially, I am starting to believe that in doubles attack there should be a different mentality to arrive at the backhand side faster than with a forehand side to avoid hitting an 'out of position ATHS'. Of course this involves good footwork, which takes practice, but perhaps a mentality change is involved.

    And to end my post, here is a funny shot of Lin Dan.

    [​IMG]

    Any more input is appreciated!
     
  14. Athelete1234

    Athelete1234 Regular Member

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    I find that Lin dan doesn't really face forwards when playing his ATHS; I noticed that he tends to face in a diagonal position (in his case, his body is tilted to face the left a bit) so his left arm can reach around his head easier.
     
  15. Badmintan

    Badmintan Regular Member

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    Videos for around the head shot

    Hi guys,

    Has anyone found a video clip in youtube or other websites about the footwork for over the head shot?

    I like to know more of the biomechanics....very interesting. The pros...make it look very spectacular...kinda of like poetry in motion...
     
  16. molohov

    molohov Regular Member

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    haha, I tend to agree. watching a pro pulling off a good ATHS is very satisfying to watch. there is this really old video that i have which discusses basic footwork around the court.

    essentially, the chasseing to the backhand corner is the same as if you were chasseing to the forehand corner. except, of course, you are facing a different direction. everything else, actually, should be the same as a forehand shot; save the point of impact of your racquet.

    i seem to have this down, actually, but the problem is transferring enough power into my shot. I lose my body mechanics at this point and can't seem to transfer my energy into the shot. essentially, i can make it to the shot, in a fairly good position, but i just can't play it. lol...

    good luck!
     
  17. Badmintan

    Badmintan Regular Member

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    Thanks. I tried crossing my legs and when I land on my left leg, my right leg automatically kicks out...so far it works well...but need to get the speed and timing right. :)

    Found one clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59S9LCTYSQY

    The winning shot in this match

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZIJycvsw9c
     
  18. Shifty

    Shifty Regular Member

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    around the head shots should be hit with the same technique as a forehand shot. try not to think of the forehand and around the head as two entirely different techniques. it's more of a continuum with differing contact points. naturally, on your forehand side, you can reach further, so your contact point can be higher. as you move further around the head, you arm can't stay naturally in the correct position at the same height. the contact point's height decreases.

    perhaps that may help.
     
  19. coachgary

    coachgary Regular Member

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    Look for details on a Hartono turn. Basically for a right hander there will be a left foot hop during the footwork as you step across. and you would finish with a scissor.
     
  20. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

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    Trained this after I read somewhere keeping an attack is essential and it is better to do a round head shot rather than a backhand as you can view the opponent and move faster to anticipate them.

    This is what I found:
    1. Turn your body
    As it's round the head, it is better for a right hander like me to turn sideways to my right, so my right part of the body is at the back. a mistake that is often done is the player face the front while doing ATHS, resulting in a misshit.

    2. Don't leave your left arm dangling. Use it!
    The left arm is important. See the professionals that raise their left arm a bit? see Chen Long or Yoo Yeon Seoung. Use it to help you rotate your body and aim. I found that if I leave my left arm dangling, it is harder to turn and aim

    3. The racket leg must be at the back
    This should be automatic with no.1. For a right hander, As you turn your body, your right leg should automatically be at the back, so use it for side stepping and aiming. it really helps with the ATHS. I found if the right leg is facing sideways, the ATHS quality will be better
     

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