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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Full frame digital sensors

    I think most of today's camera manufacturers are just followers, not industry innovators. Leica was the first innovator by having the guts to use an existing 35mm cinefilm (36mmx24mm) used by the movie industry many moons ago and building a small 35mm camera to use it. Since then nothing really innovative has come along. At least Kodak did make a bold attempt with their APS film system until the digital age eases it out of the market. Today's dslr is a poor carbon copy of the principles used in the Kodak APS film system. At least in the APS you use one film on one camera for 3 different formats, with 2 of the 3 formats being achieved by cropping. Now its digital replacements come with 3 or more formats but with 3 or more different cameras! Compounding this is the misfits of lenses on the various formats.
    But all is not lost. The digital mess we are in now is because the market is just getting to grips with the digital age. In time there will be either one or two formats. The easiest one will be a full frame 36mm x 24mm sensor camera. And if the sensor is good you can turn this full frame sensor camera into as many formats as you like, provided they are are smaller than full size, by doing the cropping yourself with the same camera. Imagine that by just using one lens, say 28mm, on a full frame sensor camera, you can use the same 28mm lens to take a 280mm telephoto shot simply by cropping it by 10 times. Now, isn't this a simpler way to do what the 3 or more different sensor size Canon cameras are doing? The same principle is used in those business card size pocket cameras.
    The next step could be even more drastic. Get rid of the mirror and the prism, shrink the thickness of the sensor, and make the whole thing more energy efficient. With all these you might eventually get a camera with the smallest lens to sensor distance, which are great for designing the ultimate in lenses as well as making available to you all the world's interchangeable lenses, by means of an adapter.

  2. #2
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    And if the sensor is good you can turn this full frame sensor camera into as many formats as you like, provided they are are smaller than full size, by doing the cropping yourself with the same camera. Imagine that by just using one lens, say 28mm, on a full frame sensor camera, you can use the same 28mm lens to take a 280mm telephoto shot simply by cropping it by 10 times. Now, isn't this a simpler way to do what the 3 or more different sensor size Canon cameras are doing?
    We pay more then we get more! It's just a marketing strategy! Even if Canon has that kinda sensors making technology. That thing will never be happening! How do they make more profit buy just selling camera bodies? Besides, will the perspective of a picture be the same if we crop it from a real 28mm photo image to a 280mm like image?
    Last edited by red00ecstrat; 07-26-2007 at 11:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red00ecstrat View Post
    We pay more then we get more! It's just a marketing strategy! Even if Canon has that kinda sensors making technology. That thing will never be happening! How do they make more profit buy just selling camera bodies? Besides, will the perspective of a picture be the same if we crop it from a real 28mm photo image to a 280mm like image?
    Yes, the perspective of the common image of the two remains unchanged, only the field of view is different. Field of view and perspective are two very different animals. To change perspective you must change the distance between you and the subject. Perspective, that is of the common image, is the same from the same position where you take the pictures irrespective of the use of different focal lengths.

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    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Yes, the perspective of the common image of the two remains unchanged, only the field of view is different. Field of view and perspective are two very different animals. To change perspective you must change the distance between you and the subject. Perspective, that is of the common image, is the same from the same position where you take the pictures irrespective of the use of different focal lengths.
    You are right. Experiment had already been done. In fact, depth of field is the difference rather than perspective.
    Anyway, if the quality of a sensor can really go that far. Photography will no longer fun to me. And I don't know if a digital camera can survive at that time coz the same kinda thing could be applied to digital video camera. Then we can just capture some hi quality images from it! I just don't wanna see that happen!
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    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red00ecstrat View Post
    In fact, depth of field is the difference rather than perspective.
    Yep, even my $1,000 DSLR (including lens) can do it.


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    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinkAlot View Post
    Yep, even my $1,000 DSLR (including lens) can do it.
    no dan, i wasn't trying to demonstrate the depth of field stuff. what i was trying to find out was the perspective of an image after being cropped.
    if the shooting position remain unchanged. no matter what the focal length is. the perspective will be the same.
    here is the original of the second picture.
    my first pic was taken by a 200mm lens and my second pic was taken by a 20mm lens then being cropped to 200mm like.
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    Last edited by red00ecstrat; 07-27-2007 at 05:05 AM.

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    Where are the bullet holes???

    Quote Originally Posted by DinkAlot View Post
    Yep, even my $1,000 DSLR (including lens) can do it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete LSD View Post
    Where are the bullet holes???
    Look closer.

    -dave
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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default ^^Hey hey..^^

    ..it's a rough neighborhood out there..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 07-27-2007 at 11:56 PM.

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    Frankly I do not think that full size 36mm x 24mm sensor size dslr has any real future. Using current crop of 35mm camera bodies and 35mm film based lenses are an ill fit for full size sensors. The diameter of the circle of good definition of a 35mm film or full size sensor is about 50.9mm. With current film cameras current 35mm lenses are not a problem. But with a full size sensor the diameter of the lens mount and the flange to sensor distance must be drastically increased. If you want impeccable performance from your 35mm lenses, especially very wide angle lenses on a full size sensor camera, the lens mount of the 35mm camera should have a diameter of about 100mm plus and the thickness of the body must be increased to keep the same fov. If you do this you are going into Hassabled territory with Hassabled size lenses. Hassabled is also having similar problems, but they are coining new words like full size sensors for their cameras for less than full size sensors. You can also say goodbye to portable and very fast lenses.

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    It would be useful to also tell us the flange to focal plane distances of some cameras

  12. #12
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    Most slr cameras have a flange to sensor or film plane distance of between 37.8mm (Alpa, by far the slimmest) to about 50mm. Rangefinder 35mm cameras have even shorter distances because of the absence of a mirror box.
    Canon EOS has, next to the Alpa and the Four Thirds camera, about the smallest flange (lens mount part) to sensor distance. This means trouble for Canon's full size sensor slr because all their inventory of great wide angle lenses cannot be optimally used in their dslr except for the APS size bodies.
    For a very wide angle lens to perform well in a full size Canon camera the design of the wide angle lens will be huge to allow near telecentric rays to go through the lens. This probably means the wide angle lens will have a 5 to 1 or even more ratio of back focal distance to focal length. To achieve this the camera will have to have a thicker body, a bigger mouth, and a giant lens for a very fast extreme wide angle.
    I think now is an opportunity for Canon or Nikon to establish a new digital slr standard based on a full size 36mm x 24mm sensor. To do this they must start with a new camera body away from the EOS and a new breed of more near telecentric lenses (necessary for digital sensors) for the digital age. If they don't do this they will be squeezed out by the new Four Thirds from the bottom and the Hassabled-led MF from the top.

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