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  1. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    Hey pjswift,

    Let us refer to one of the Fundamental Principles of Olympism, Point #4., which states that;
    The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practising sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play. The organisation, administration and management of sport must be controlled by independent sports organisations.

    Perhaps this Point #4 was written long ago... to encourage more participants to the earlier Olympics.

    And this Point #4 was made concerning the individual participants, hoping that they will participate with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

    However, things have changed... Countries are now using the Olympics to show how good they are (in producing sports champions). Politics and Sports are now inseparable.

    Our BWF is still allowing a strong Badminton nation to clean sweep all the medals (Gold, Silver and Bronze) in ONE particular event. (Just a comparison: FIFA does not allow strong Football nations to send more than ONE team).

    Because we now have Politics between nations involved in the Olympics, I am seriously hoping that BWF (or any many other sports organisations) will allow only ONE representative from each nation to participate in ONE event. This will be more meaningful, in the sense that;
    1. More nations can participate.
    2. From each nation, their national champion (or best candidate) is to do battle with likewise from other nations.

    Yes, from what I have suggested... only ONE medal could be awarded to ONE nation for ONE event. No nation will have any chance of playing foul, like walkover/early retirement/etc... by match fixing.

    Perhaps many will disagree with me on this one.

    And yes, we will not be able to watch the best 2 players/pairs playing each other if they are from the same country.

    My above suggestion is made because I have now found that mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play are all missing in our Modern Olympics.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ***
    If one country is limited to one entry then even the badminton fans would lose interest in the Olympic.

    Fair play? Maybe. Excitement? Maybe even the US Open is more interesting to watch.

  2. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wong8Egg View Post
    Excitement? Maybe even the US Open is more interesting to watch.
    Um, the Calgary Open too

  3. #156
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    It is fine , for some sports or some gentleman : Olympic is the most prestigous sports event; for some it is not...
    Every sports event does have it own rules, who are we to teach IOC/BWF what to do or what should not ? Every country need to comply the rules without exception if wanna participate in...
    If you think US open or others GP/Satelite series will be more interesting to watch rather than Olympics' Badminton event, go ahead & stay away from any badminton matches at Olympics.. that's fine..

  4. #157
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Default Thus Spake The Gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Faced with the same situation, what will you do if you were in LYB's position? [...] Unfortunately one's own ethical beliefs will remain subservient to the higher ups if one wishes to keep one's job. [...] Given the choice, I'll rather win with honour and fair play!
    What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
    - Mark 8:36

    A biblical reference to St LYB?

  5. #158
    Regular Member robin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Don't just take 1 side of the story.

    If the OG is really fair, do NOT LIMIT the entries per nation. Just let the best of the best fight for the title. If no limited entries, CHN might occupy half the entries, therefore, the chance to gain a gold should be much higher to begin with. Do you think that fair to see WC champion like XXZ and WC runner up like XXF can't even play OG (2004) is fair??? Do you prefer to see XXZ and XXF, or some no name ones who simply come from another nation? Do you think that's fair for XXF and XXZ and CHN team to begin with?

    CM might see 15 CHN ladies in OG, instead of some rank 50s players from another nation. Insead of worry about 3 CHN ladies, she might have to deal with 3 or 4 to even reach the final. She will be seriously tested in every single round.

    Then, we might see a 4 CHN ladies semi final.
    (1) Assuming the rule of limited entries per nation is revoked.

    (2) Assuming in Beijing Olympic 2008, 6 out of 10 (or whatever number) WS players from CHN make it to the quarter-finals with the following results:
    QF1: XXF (CHN) beat WL (CHN)
    QF2: ZN (CHN) beat JYJ (CHN)
    QF3: PHY (FRA) beat LL (CHN)
    QF4: WC (HKG) beat ZL (CHN)

    SF1: XXF (CHN) vs ZN (CHN)
    SF2: WC (HKG) vs PHY (FRA)

    Who do u think the "winner" of the SF1 between XXF and ZN will be?

    Since XXF has a better winning record than ZN against WC or PHY, XXF will be the "winner".

    Implementation of unlimited entries per nation will NOT prevent match fixing. No matter what, matching fixing will still be happening unless all CHN players occupy the quarters.

    Having the ability of match fixing does not mean you must practise it. It is not an issue of can or cannot but of will or will not.

  6. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
    - Mark 8:36

    A biblical reference to St LYB?
    Very well quoted...that is precisely what I believe in. Many posts have muddy the issue, from justifying LYB match fixing to condoning thie type of action to painting this issue looks grey by adding limiting entries to country participation.
    Limiting entries, I opined is target strong countries esp CHN now and wait for the next 3 years, when the current top 4 retires, and with no rising stars fro the rest of the world coming up, CHN will even be more dominant.
    What I have been emphazing is matchfixing whether LYB admitted doing so or proven other countries including INA, MAS, KOR have done the same thing is not right and is wrong and should not be condone. Posters muddying this issue to paint match fixing grey, rather than black and white, one very simple questions "Are you condoning match fixing and agreeing that if any country has the cards to fix the outcome of a tourney, OLY, SS or WC, should do it? A very simple Yes or No would do?
    While BWF or IOC do not say that is illegal, therefore all the powers to these individuals or countries to milk this loophole, match fixing as one single issue is not wrong, unfair to the players who trained so hard esp to earn his/her rightto the SF or SS, WC or OLY. If the players actually participate in this scheme, they are just as wrong in the spirit of sportsmanship. To those fans paying to watch, that is unfair to them too.

  7. #160
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    [quote=OneToughBirdie;717895]
    Very well quoted...that is precisely what I believe in. Many posts have muddy the issue, from justifying LYB match fixing to condoning this type of action to painting this issue looks grey by adding limiting entries to country participation, if not illegal why not, etc....
    What I have been emphazing is matchfixing whether LYB admitted doing so or proven other countries including INA, MAS, KOR have done the same thing is not right and is wrong and should not be condone. Posters muddying this issue to paint match fixing grey, rather than black and white, one very simple questions "Are you condoning match fixing and agreeing that if any country has the cards to fix the outcome of a tourney, OLY, SS or WC, should do it? A very simple Yes or No would do?
    While BWF or IOC do not say it is illegal, therefore all the powers to these individuals or countries to milk this loophole, match fixing as one single issue is wrong, unfair to the players who trained so hard esp to earn his/her right to the SF or SS, WC or OLY. If the players wilingly participate in this scheme, they are just as wrong in the spirit of sportsmanship. To those fans paying to watch, that is unfair to them too.
    Limiting entries, I opined is to target strong countries esp CHN now and as a baddy fan, I want to see the bestplayers play, regardless of where they are from. Excluding a defending WC champion from participating in the next WC, that is not right either. I concur with previous poster on this, as in WC05, the first round had many players who simply should not be there and the early rounds are actually boring until LD, TH, etc appeared.
    Credit to CHN to produce waves of world class players, while top countries like DEN, KOR, MAS or even INA have trouble filling the gap. Wait for the next 3 years, when the current top 4 retires and with no rising stars from the rest of the world coming up, CHN will even be more dominant. To BWF, that is a kiss of death, with one country dominant, that would sap the advance of this sport and renders it a regional sport.

  8. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibaxiang View Post
    Funny points from some of the members, indeed.

    If Olympics is about countries, then LYB is doing whatever possible for his country. What's wrong with that?

    If Olympics is about individual best, then look at LB's point. Is it fair to put entry limits for each country? If there were no limits, playsers from china will most likely still take the gold.
    that's actually a very interesting argument. if Olympics badminton is truely an individual sport, then why put limits on participation from each country? by the virtue that they have country limit makes it less clear whether it is an individual sport and more like a team/country sport.

    perhaps what they should've done is to allow exactly 3 entries from each participating country, and let people use whatever team tactics they want to win the title. kinda like what they do for the Tour de France, each team gets 9 cyclists, they all help each other out but in the end, only one person wins the Tour.

  9. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnymak View Post
    Above all by ordering a player to throw the match, LYB had cheated the badnminton fans who went and paid to watch the match. It wouldn't be that bad if Ye had gave Gong a w.o. But to play to lose is fraud on all of us who watch the match.

    What worth is the gold Medal? Did Gong deserve it? Did she beat her compatriot with her ability? The Olympic spirit is lost and might as well all the athletes take dope to win. I cant see the difference between this form of cheating from doping
    just like WWE............all actions are staged........... ok ah, u smash my backhand after i clear it to you, ill pretend to dive and cant save it.

  10. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Faced with the same situation, what will you do if you were in LYB's position?

    I would expect conflicting answers, depending on one's experience and standing with players/other coaches/etc, pressure from the top to win the gold medal, the reaction/cooperation from one's players and less from the general public, especially if they are foreign nationalities.

    Unfortunately one's own ethical beliefs will remain subservient to the higher ups if one wishes to keep one's job.

    The ideal scenario is of course to let the best player win for he/she rightly deserves it after putting in so much hardwork. The paying public deserves to get their money's worth. The country and players will not be looked upon with disdain as 'cheats, frauds, despicables, etc".

    Given the choice, I'll rather win with honour and fair play!
    ill make it clearer for you about the choice LYB has to make.......

    choice 1) being ethical (may the best man win) - good badminton coach.

    choice 2) win at all cost so that he will be not risking his job. (let's don't forget that he has a family and a lifestyle to maintain) - good china coach.

    IMO, LYB has made his choice and i respect that. Sometimes it's easier to talk when it doesn't really involve your life even a bit. Losing his job will mean losing everything for LYB as i don't think he will ever want to coach outside of CHN.



  11. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    Such a restriction might be unfair to many a sporting nation.

    For instance, many of the world's top sprinters might be denied an Olympic appearance (and a possible medal) simply because they happen to be from the same nation.

    The scenario could also descend to a farce if someone at the leading edge were to be injured during the Games

    Let's take a badminton example...

    Assume, for argument's sake, that one nation is allowed only one competitor per event.

    Here's an imaginary set of results from the MS QF :
    1. Lee Chong Wei (MAS) beats Lin Dan (CHN)
    2. Taufik Hidayat (INA) beats Peter Gade (DEN)
    3. Ronald Susilo (SIN) beats Anup Sridhar (IND)
    4. Stuart Gomez (AUS) beats Tien Minh Nguyen (VIE)

    Let's assume the SF results are :
    1. Lee Chong Wei (MAS) beats Taufik Hidayat (INA)
    2. Ronald Susilo (SIN) beats Stuart Gomez (AUS)

    Further assuming that Lee Chong Wei beats Ronald Susilo and that Taufik Hidayat twists an ankle or strains his back when playing Stuart Gomez, we have :
    MS Gold - Lee Chong Wei (MAS)
    MS Silver - Ronald Susilo (SIN)
    MS Bronze - Stuart Gomez (AUS)

    We also have Taufik Hidayat (INA) in 4th place.

    Now, where does this leave Bao Chunlai, Chen Jin and Chen Yu?
    Won't Olympic history record Ronald Susilo and Stuart Gomez as the second and third greatest badminton players of 2008?

    Li Yongbo or no Li Yongbo, I'd much rather have a great competition with one nation dominating the draw... than a farce of a competition with an Angolan or Pakistani badminton player making it into Olympic history.
    noone REALLY REALLY bothers about who is getting the silver. It's just like a consolation for not getting the gold (sorry to say this, but the truth is there will be only one gold to be offered). Maybe sometimes i can remember the silver medalist, but what's so important about the silver when all has set the target to get the gold.
    Last edited by alfa-2; 11-17-2007 at 01:27 PM.

  12. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    Hey pjswift,

    However, things have changed... Countries are now using the Olympics to show how good they are (in producing sports champions). Politics and Sports are now inseparable.

    Because we now have Politics between nations involved in the Olympics, I am seriously hoping that BWF (or any many other sports organisations) will allow only ONE representative from each nation to participate in ONE event. This will be more meaningful, in the sense that;
    1. More nations can participate.
    2. From each nation, their national champion (or best candidate) is to do battle with likewise from other nations.
    ***
    Nothing escapes from POLITICS nowadays............except for..........




    BC???

  13. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfa-2 View Post
    just like WWE............all actions are staged........... ok ah, u smash my backhand after i clear it to you, ill pretend to dive and cant save it.
    from my observation as well, WWF events are very very popular, even tho the matches are all, more or less, rigged or predetermined!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfa-2 View Post
    ill make it clearer for you about the choice LYB has to make.......

    choice 1) being ethical (may the best man win) - good badminton coach.

    choice 2) win at all cost so that he will be not risking his job. (let's don't forget that he has a family and a lifestyle to maintain) - good china coach.

    IMO, LYB has made his choice and i respect that. Sometimes it's easier to talk when it doesn't really involve your life even a bit. Losing his job will mean losing everything for LYB as i don't think he will ever want to coach outside of CHN.


    ie, like him or hate him, he is behind the vocabulary of 'china domination'

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfa-2 View Post
    noone REALLY REALLY bothers about who is getting the silver. It's just like a consolation for not getting the gold (sorry to say this, but the truth is there will be only one gold to be offered). Maybe sometimes i can remember the silver medalist, but what's so important about the silver when all has set the target to get the gold.
    for canadian badminton players, being in the olympic team is an accomplishment. (check darryl young's resume). Nowadays, if ur not a gold medalist, nobody hardly remembers u.

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    noone loves match fixing and that's including me although i respect LYB's decision.

    Those who love match fixing
    1) the country who condones it
    2) the player who wins
    3) the coach who condones it
    4) the fan maybe...........

    Those who hate match fixing
    1) everyone else except for those stated above............

    so which category are you in??
    Last edited by alfa-2; 11-17-2007 at 01:37 PM.

  17. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    ie, like him or hate him, he is behind the vocabulary of 'china domination'
    For china domination, none could have done it better than him. Though it's not ethical, i'll give it to him of having the PROWESS to do it.

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