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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfa-2 View Post
    noone loves match fixing and that's including me although i respect LYB's decision.

    Those who love match fixing
    1) the country who condones it
    2) the player who wins
    3) the coach who condones it
    4) the fan maybe...........

    Those who hate match fixing
    1) everyone else except for those stated above............

    so which category are you in??
    I don't blame China and/or LYB for match fixing... in fact I blame all the other players for not being better than team China. If they can knock team China out of the tournament sooner, then there is no possible way they can do any match fixing.

    So am I in the "anti-everyone else" category?

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    that's actually a very interesting argument. if Olympics badminton is truely an individual sport, then why put limits on participation from each country? by the virtue that they have country limit makes it less clear whether it is an individual sport and more like a team/country sport.

    perhaps what they should've done is to allow exactly 3 entries from each participating country, and let people use whatever team tactics they want to win the title. kinda like what they do for the Tour de France, each team gets 9 cyclists, they all help each other out but in the end, only one person wins the Tour.
    Sorry,it doesn't make sense to compare cycling with badminton.In cycling, team members help out but they do not sap away opponent energy or conserve compatriot energy like badminton, a racquet sport.
    You want to see badminton as a team sport? Well, there's Thomas Cup, Uber Cup and Sudirman Cup.
    When coaches resort to match order tactics , it means their charges are not good enough or they are not confident of their charges being able to win on their own merit.

  3. #173
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    There is no legal issue here, Li Yongbo entitled to do what he had done before and will continue to enforce his beliefs during Olympic but is this good for badminton which is still trying to stay as one of the Olympic sports?
    Lets say the coming Olympic has a "funny" draw with the following match up in QF:
    Lin Dan vs Bao Chunlai;
    Taufik Hidayat vs Soni Kuncoro;
    Peter Gade vs Kenneth Jonassen;
    Lee Chong Wei vs Wong Choon Hann;
    Every country knows Li Yongbo will order Bao to lose and not to be at the disadvantage side, similar orders are also made from other QF nations, can you see the dilemma? TV rating will dip, title honor will taint and this sport may even be the laughing stock ...
    Come to think of it, will Yap Kim Hock, Morten Frost, Christian Hadinata actually take the same route as Li Yongbo? Really don't wish to find out this darkest day of badminton era.

  4. #174
    Regular Member wilfredlgf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananakid View Post
    I don't blame China and/or LYB for match fixing... in fact I blame all the other players for not being better than team China. If they can knock team China out of the tournament sooner, then there is no possible way they can do any match fixing.

    So am I in the "anti-everyone else" category?
    What does 'everyone else' mean?

    If you mean the fault lies with other competitors not being up to par with China then I'm quite sure 'everyone else' agrees with you in a nutshell.

    However, the topic concentrates on something that is beyond the control their competitors and organisers which is solely within the jurisdiction and rights of the team itself.

    Sportmanship is an ideal in sports but the ultimate aim of a competition is to win. As mentioned earlier in this thread - if you're first you're first, if you're second you're nothing.

  5. #175
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    i believe there is no right answer here because everyone is judging this lyb's action from their own moral standard. Moral is often not black and white and therefore we all have difference degree of opinion on this, even on both pro and con sides. BWF didnt penalized china for this, IOC didn't change any things because of this, danish team didn't lodge any complaints now or back in 2000. It was LYB who voluntary disclose his action publicly recently, not even YZY spoken out. If LYB made a public admittance to this, i'm sure he 'personally' feel it was right thing to do at that time. I mean, who wanna disclose their dirty laundary voluntarily unless he thot it was done for a reason, to lyb, a noble reason.

    I dont know what ranking yzy and gzc were back then but if they were seeded 1 and 2, they should be on a different ladder, and one of them would meet up CM in the SF, not 2 chinese in the SF.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-18-2007 at 02:25 AM.

  6. #176
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Question Why was YZY sad when the Gold medal went to China?

    Quote Originally Posted by bananakid View Post

    I don't blame China and/or LYB for match fixing... in fact I blame all the other players for not being better than team China. If they can knock team China out of the tournament sooner, then there is no possible way they can do any match fixing.

    So am I in the "anti-everyone else" category?

    Hi bananakid,

    Is it because that (in this thread) it happened to be LYB, the coach of China, who was doing the match fixing that has caused you to think that many of us (as you put it, as "everyone else") are against China as a top Badminton nation ?

    If your answer is 'YES', then I am sorry to say that you are wrong.

    We do respect and do admire China as a top Badminton nation.

    The "everyone else" are really not against China, but against the match fixing.

    If any other nations are doing it, those nations will be not be condoned as well.


    This thread started with LBY saying (in an article translated by Han), as quoted below;
    Quote Originally Posted by Han View Post

    Sina Sports in Chinese.

    The headline of this article : Li Yongbo : "I don't want to pretend, I fired the World Champion, ordered Yeh Zhouying to lose".

    http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2007-11-...43286194.shtml


    And then read my post, as quoted below;
    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post

    The practice of asking someone to lose deliberately is definitely wrong. It is not only unethical, but it violates a human right...

    If LYB is concerned with the preservation of human dignity, he should not interfere with his players' motivation to play their best...

    It will only damage the player's sporting spirit. We should encourage all participants of any sports to play their best each and every time...


    Why did you think (as translated by robin7) that YZY cried.
    Quote Originally Posted by robin7 View Post

    "At first Ye was crying but she finally respected the team and agreed to lose to Gong," Li explained.

    Two games of 8-11 ended Ye's Sydney Olympic journey.

    It's so sad.


    And then cooler posted;
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post

    BWF didn't penalized china for this, IOC didn't change any things because of this, Danish team didn't lodge any complaints now or back in 2000.


    Of course, BWF, IOC and the Danish team did not/could not say anything. Outsiders cannot interfere with the internal affairs of the Chinese team (or teams of any other nations).

    The only thing we can say or ask is "Why was YZY so sad when the Gold medal went to China?"

    Now we all know...

    The World Champion was fired by her coach.


    PS
    : Many members@BC, including myself, believe that YZY is the rightful owner of the Gold medal. We know that she could beat CM. LYB should not have denied her the opportunity.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ***

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    Hi bananakid,

    Is it because that (in this thread) it happened to be LYB, the coach of China, who was doing the match fixing that has caused you to think that many of us (as you put it, as "everyone else") are against China as a top Badminton nation ?

    If your answer is 'YES', then I am sorry to say that you are wrong.

    We do respect and do admire China as a top Badminton nation.

    The "everyone else" are really not against China, but against the match fixing.

    If any other nations are doing it, those nations will be not be condoned as well.


    This thread started with LBY saying (in an article translated by Han), as quoted below;



    And then read my post, as quoted below;



    Why did you think (as translated by robin7) that YZY cried.



    And then cooler posted;



    Of course, BWF, IOC and the Danish team did not/could not say anything. Outsiders cannot interfere with the internal affairs of the Chinese team (or teams of any other nations).

    The only thing we can say or ask is "Why was YZY so sad when the Gold medal went to China?"

    Now we all know...

    The World Champion was fired by her coach.



    PS: Many members@BC, including myself, believe that YZY is the rightful owner of the Gold medal. We know that she could beat CM. LYB should not have denied her the opportunity.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ***
    You said the same thing as I said...but much clearer than me...very well said...yes my main point is match fixing not just CHN doing it.

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    Hi bananakid,

    Is it because that (in this thread) it happened to be LYB, the coach of China, who was doing the match fixing that has caused you to think that many of us (as you put it, as "everyone else") are against China as a top Badminton nation ?

    If your answer is 'YES', then I am sorry to say that you are wrong.

    We do respect and do admire China as a top Badminton nation.

    The "everyone else" are really not against China, but against the match fixing.

    If any other nations are doing it, those nations will be not be condoned as well.


    This thread started with LBY saying (in an article translated by Han), as quoted below;



    And then read my post, as quoted below;



    Why did you think (as translated by robin7) that YZY cried.



    And then cooler posted;



    Of course, BWF, IOC and the Danish team did not/could not say anything. Outsiders cannot interfere with the internal affairs of the Chinese team (or teams of any other nations).

    The only thing we can say or ask is "Why was YZY so sad when the Gold medal went to China?"

    Now we all know...

    The World Champion was fired by her coach.


    PS
    : Many members@BC, including myself, believe that YZY is the rightful owner of the Gold medal. We know that she could beat CM. LYB should not have denied her the opportunity.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ***
    well, we all see unfairness around us, it's part of life. Look at XXZ, WC in 2003 but fired in 2004 OG. This guy was fired 'before' he even step on the court. Neither LD, BCL nor Chen Hong reached the SF at 04 OG, don't u think XXZ was denied of a greater opportunity to win a gold than yzy? As i said before, let it go. There are tons of greater injustice out there that we should be more concern about.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    Hi bananakid,

    Is it because that (in this thread) it happened to be LYB, the coach of China, who was doing the match fixing that has caused you to think that many of us (as you put it, as "everyone else") are against China as a top Badminton nation ?

    If your answer is 'YES', then I am sorry to say that you are wrong.

    We do respect and do admire China as a top Badminton nation.

    The "everyone else" are really not against China, but against the match fixing.

    If any other nations are doing it, those nations will be not be condoned as well. ***
    By "everyone", I mean the players whom are not good enough to defeat team China before they have the opportunity to "fix" the match... after all, they are the main reason why LYB "always" has the chance to manipulate the outcome of matches... just imagine how it is possible for LYB to do any kind of match fixing if just one of the players on court doesn't belong to his team

    Everyone else gives him the opportunity... He decides to take advantage of that opportunity, and nobody can blame him. If anybody is so against it, why not be the next superstar(+ find a few others) and constantly beat LYB's students just so you can be the one doing something about it, and not just talk about it.

  10. #180
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
    - Mark 8:36

    A biblical reference to St LYB?
    You are not introducing another burden to sports, are you?
    Politics' involvement is impossible to eradicate but Religion...once there will always be eternal and non-materialistic!

  11. #181
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    You are not introducing another burden to sports, are you?
    Politics' involvement is impossible to eradicate but Religion...once there will always be eternal and non-materialistic!
    In fact, I posted that line after watching the opening of the 1979 epic Caligula
    (to some, it's a classic... to others, it's hardcore stuff )

    As I'd just finished reading the latest posts on LYB, the quote struck me as quite an apt one to describe his predicament (well, one of his own making)

  12. #182
    Regular Member nibaxiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananakid View Post
    By "everyone", I mean the players whom are not good enough to defeat team China before they have the opportunity to "fix" the match... after all, they are the main reason why LYB "always" has the chance to manipulate the outcome of matches... just imagine how it is possible for LYB to do any kind of match fixing if just one of the players on court doesn't belong to his team

    Everyone else gives him the opportunity... He decides to take advantage of that opportunity, and nobody can blame him. If anybody is so against it, why not be the next superstar(+ find a few others) and constantly beat LYB's students just so you can be the one doing something about it, and not just talk about it.
    Creative thinking as always. I would say, your posts are interesting to read. Thumbs up!

  13. #183
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Exclamation True sportsmanship will not be displayed when players participate in 'fixed' matches

    Quote Originally Posted by bananakid View Post

    By "everyone", I mean the players whom are not good enough to defeat team China before they have the opportunity to "fix" the match... after all, they are the main reason why LYB "always" has the chance to manipulate the outcome of matches... just imagine how it is possible for LYB to do any kind of match fixing if just one of the players on court doesn't belong to his team

    Everyone else gives him the opportunity... He decides to take advantage of that opportunity, and nobody can blame him. If anybody is so against it, why not be the next superstar(+ find a few others) and constantly beat LYB's students just so you can be the one doing something about it, and not just talk about it.

    Hi bananakid,

    I agree with you when you mentioned "Everyone else gives him(LYB) the opportunity(to fix matches)". This is because nobody wants to interfere with another person's reason/decision.

    You will have followed the arguments in this thread... everyone is saying that match fixing is not illegal.

    But when we say that an opportunity is 'not illegal', we are not saying that that opportunity is the only way to do it. We have to think of what is right or wrong, for players and fans.

    Actually, LYB has upset players and fans inside China, as well.

    Some of the people that LYB has upset are;
    1. Some better players who are denied the opportunity to represent/win for China.
    2. Some fans wishing to watch spirited matches, regardless of which Chinese province the players come from.

    Why do you think when many of us@Badminton Central have said that when the top 2 Chinese players are playing each other, it is not as interesting as the top 2 players of another nation (say, Denmark, Malaysia, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, etc...) are playing each other?

    Answer: We could see that the true sportsmanship and fighting spirit of the Chinese players are not displayed when a decision has already been made... that is, to play the match as a 'fixed match'.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ***
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 11-20-2007 at 02:18 AM.

  14. #184
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Default Currently Impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by bananakid View Post
    why not [...] constantly beat LYB's students...
    Forget constantly... I'd settle for even half the time
    But there's no such redeemer yet in sight

    I dream of rain
    I dream of gardens in the desert sand
    I wake in vain
    I dream of love as time runs through my hand
    - from Desert Rose by Sting

  15. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    Forget constantly... I'd settle for even half the time
    But there's no such redeemer yet in sight

    I dream of rain
    I dream of gardens in the desert sand
    I wake in vain
    I dream of love as time runs through my hand
    - from Desert Rose by Sting
    Either you have lots of time on hand to romance with poems or just that you are one old romantic bugger...
    Checking on the QR in CHN07 flooded with names of CHN players never heard of before except for a few, that give us an insight on the next wave of players coming up compared to the rest of the world...

  16. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananakid View Post
    By "everyone", I mean the players whom are not good enough to defeat team China before they have the opportunity to "fix" the match... after all, they are the main reason why LYB "always" has the chance to manipulate the outcome of matches... just imagine how it is possible for LYB to do any kind of match fixing if just one of the players on court doesn't belong to his team

    Everyone else gives him the opportunity... He decides to take advantage of that opportunity, and nobody can blame him. If anybody is so against it, why not be the next superstar(+ find a few others) and constantly beat LYB's students just so you can be the one doing something about it, and not just talk about it.
    Are you saying CHN coaches before LYB did not have the opportunities to do the same? That there were not enough good CHN MS (like 3 or 4) to dominate? Can anyone share those times when it's CHN vs CHN. What were the matches like?

  17. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    Either you have lots of time on hand to romance with poems or just that you are one old romantic bugger...
    Checking on the QR in CHN07 flooded with names of CHN players never heard of before except for a few, that give us an insight on the next wave of players coming up compared to the rest of the world...
    The biggest surprise is Macao names;so many it's like they are there to give their opponents an easy ride.Did MCO07 have that many MCO players?

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