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  1. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Isn't the Olympics about country first and individual next? On the other hand the Super Series is more the individual first and country last, unless there are higher motives behind so called match-fixing. Maybe LYB is using a type of "comparative advantage" that only smart nations use in economics. Maybe LYB has brought the art of strategy-basing on a bit of statistics in this case-to a higher level.
    In the animal kingdom the pride is always ruled by the alpha male, the strongest over all the others. In humans, our ability to think for the common good over the individual, even if the individual is the human equivalent alpha male, is the reason why there is no alpha male in the human species.
    i like to add thomas/uber cup, sudirman cup too have element of country versus country, not about individual gratification.

  2. #121
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    I don't know what the hell you are talking about. My blog??? What the hell is that?

    Ben Johnson or Marion Jones, any difference? OK, are Americans proud of Marion Jones?

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    it is obvious ur a very biased person who can't make fair judgement. It reflects on your blogs and other postings as well as i have known already (closed threads). How convenience of u replying to another american with a canadian example (ben johnson) when your hometown girl marion jones was a much bigger culprit: denied denied denied at first but now shed crocodile tears and have to return FIVE olympic medals.

    Marion Jones Returns Five Olympic Medals

    Oct. 8, 2007
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (AP) Marion Jones has given up the five medals she won at the Sydney Olympics, days after admitting she used performance-enhancing drugs.


    for your information, taking ban substance is illegal. Game fixing your own players is not. Try to distinguish the differenece U can call it game fixing but in sports but a coach can instruct their players on play tactics within the game rules. The more u talk, the more u show us your bias.

    I bet u that if INA, MAL or any other countries with similar situation, would game fix too. U r crying foul because your home country didn't have this opportunity to do game fixing.

    corruption index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupt...ceptions_Index
    china:72 (yellow)
    indonesia:143 (orange, dead bottom class)

    quit whining

  3. #122
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    If there is no "limited entries", then definitely there will be match fixing. It's not about China. Any country where many ppl can benefit (I mean real benefit, like money or power, not some useless national pride) from an Olympic gold will do some match fixing if it has many players in the final 32.

    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Before finger pointing the match fixing, let me ask you how to explain the "limited entries for OG"?

  4. #123
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    Ah, by the way, my home country is China. That's why Marion Jones didn't come to my mind, because I don't have much time to care about what happens in US. The Ben Johnson thing happened when I was a kid, back then I have time to read all those "news".

    But I am a proud man. In China we say a real man would rather starve than eat food given to him condescendingly. I hate to see my home country win by cheating, especially when there in fact is decent chance that we can win fair and square.

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    it is obvious ur a very biased person who can't make fair judgement. It reflects on your blogs and other postings as well as i have known already (closed threads). How convenience of u replying to another american with a canadian example (ben johnson) when your hometown girl marion jones was a much bigger culprit: denied denied denied at first but now shed crocodile tears and have to return FIVE olympic medals.

    Marion Jones Returns Five Olympic Medals

    Oct. 8, 2007
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (AP) Marion Jones has given up the five medals she won at the Sydney Olympics, days after admitting she used performance-enhancing drugs.


    for your information, taking ban substance is illegal. Game fixing your own players is not. Try to distinguish the differenece U can call it game fixing but in sports but a coach can instruct their players on play tactics within the game rules. The more u talk, the more u show us your bias.

    I bet u that if INA, MAL or any other countries with similar situation, would game fix too. U r crying foul because your home country didn't have this opportunity to do game fixing.

    corruption index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupt...ceptions_Index
    china:72 (yellow)
    indonesia:143 (orange, dead bottom class)

    quit whining

  5. #124
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    The Olympics is a sporting event where the objective is to get every nation on the planet to participate. If only the very best are chosen the spirit of the Olympics will die, as in some events you will end up with participants from only one country. As a matter of fact even individual sports organizations are trying to change their rules to limit the sports from being dominated by a single country and to bring in more countries. China have always cried foul about rules changes to table tennis, which they think are attempts to stop their dominance in the game.

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    In 2008 OG, if no injuries or sickness or retirement, LYB will like face such situation:

    1. MS: LD, BCL, CH, CJ, CY (likely all in top 10)

    2. WS: ZN, XXF, Lu Lan, Zhu Lin, Jiang Yanjiao, Wang Lin, Wang Yihan (likely 4 or 5 in top 10, the rest high in 10-20 if given enough chance to play)

    3. WD: GL/HS (not sure about Hung Sui status), ZJW/YW, ZYW/WYL, Du Jing/Yu Yang(like all in top 10, if stay in the same pair and enough chance to play)

    Tell me, any of the above does NOT deserve to play OG? However, we will see a huge cut of about 50% (7 out of 16 and 4 out of 7 WS) of listed above. Thanks for the "fairness" with the OG setup to begin with.

    Before we feel bad for the "match fixing" victims, let's free bad for "limited entries" victims. They can't even play the qualification round even if they could be the WC champions!!!
    Very well said. Point taken. But you failed to understand that the Olympic games is a country based games rather than the individual at the first place. I hate to break this to you but once you figure out the differences, all your not fair treatment and XXZ and XXF not able to play points was inane. You were arguing on a wrong ground at the first place.

    It's like in World Cup and Brazil asking to send in 2 teams instead of letting Togo, Ghana or some Asian plays because their 2nd or even 3rd teams is better. Heck we can even put in another Argene or Italian or Germany team instead of the U.S. Oliver Kahn was way better keeper than most of other teams' gollies but Germany only need 1 keeper that is Jens Lehnman. Blame the coach for picking Jens(LD) over Olivi(XXZ) but it is the nature of a game like this, which the Olympic games too. Or should we have the Olympic game's basketball event playing by all the NBA teams instead of the China team or whatever.

    I know it's not a very good example but you get the idea.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by V3i HoN6 View Post
    Very well said. Point taken. But you failed to understand that the Olympic games is a country based games rather than the individual at the first place. I hate to break this to you but once you figure out the differences, all your not fair treatment and XXZ and XXF not able to play points was inane. You were arguing on a wrong ground at the first place.

    It's like in World Cup and Brazil asking to send in 2 teams instead of letting Togo, Ghana or some Asian plays because their 2nd or even 3rd teams is better. Heck we can even put in another Argene or Italian or Germany team instead of the U.S. Oliver Kahn was way better keeper than most of other teams' gollies but Germany only need 1 keeper that is Jens Lehnman. Blame the coach for picking Jens(LD) over Olivi(XXZ) but it is the nature of a game like this, which the Olympic games too. Or should we have the Olympic game's basketball event playing by all the NBA teams instead of the China team or whatever.

    I know it's not a very good example but you get the idea.
    I cannot see any difference between your position and Lazybuddy, as they are similar in direction but different in ways of expressing them.

  8. #127
    Moderator drifit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    And, as LYB says: "May I always win"
    err.......
    should be "May the country always win and conquer the badminton arena"

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by drifit View Post
    err.......
    should be "May the country always win and conquer the badminton arena"
    I agree with oldhand. LYB 's job's on the line if he didn't deliver.See how some BFers always proclaim what a great coach(probably the most successful CHN coach according to some?) he is based on results?They don't say how great CHN is first.So LYB 's doing it for himself FIRST in his mind but publicly he will say he's doing it for the country because it is so honourable and how can anyone disagree if it's for the country? Try not to be conned.

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    I cannot see any difference between your position and Lazybuddy, as they are similar in direction but different in ways of expressing them.
    V3i s point is very clear.Isn't Olympics about competition among the best from each country for each sport? It's not about competition among the best for each sport? The logic is if the Olympian is really the best, he will come out the winner even if he were a lone ranger.OG04 proved it.

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    V3i s point is very clear.Isn't Olympics about competition among the best from each country for each sport? It's not about competition among the best for each sport? The logic is if the Olympian is really the best, he will come out the winner even if he were a lone ranger.OG04 proved it.
    On a technical aspect, i have said before OG isn't the best event to judge individual talent. Because the OG is often seen by the gerneral public as the biggest sport event in the world, people tend to associate the winners as the best in the world. As for me, I often look upon winners from the Open (All England, Japan Open, and WC (although they allow 4 entries per coutnry)) for example as a better gauge of individual talent. Because the OG comes every 4 years, even the very best can be out of luck if they didn't peak at the right moment. For ex. Gold medalists Ji Xinpeng and Alan Budi Kusuma are the one i would say peaked at the right time. Surely there were better players than them in those era.

  12. #131
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    But at that particular point in time, the seemingly less illustrious triumphed over the rest of the crop and thus emerged as the Olympic Champion and created history!

    That was the moment that counted, all other tournaments can be put aside. TH has experienced it all and he found it so satisfying and memorable that he is returing for an Encore four year later!

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    I cannot see any difference between your position and Lazybuddy, as they are similar in direction but different in ways of expressing them.
    I'm sorry if I make you confuse but I try my best to clear it out.
    LazyBuddy been saying that it is unfair because it limited the entries per country and lead to some second best like XXZ and XXF unable to compete while some not so good player from other country get to compete. It's sound plausible but if you think of it as the Olympic game is an competitive ground for country vs ground then it is in fact not. Every country get to send their best player, but of course the country full of talents might have some dilemma choosing who is the best among their talent.

    And to the top of this, his argument implies that, or being use for bananakids to justify that it is actually OK for LYB to implement match fixing because it is unfair at the first place (which I strongly disagree because of the nature of Olympic game).

    I would absolutely agree with him if this rule bring to SS series but it is not the case on Olympic game, or other team events. Forget about the football example if you like. In a Thomas cup event, if ChenYu, ChenHong, dont get to play while Hafiz Hashim get to play as second single for Malaysia. Will you cry for unfairness? Or should we take out Russian, Germany or France and put in China second team and INA second team intead?

    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    V3i s point is very clear.Isn't Olympics about competition among the best from each country for each sport? It's not about competition among the best for each sport? The logic is if the Olympian is really the best, he will come out the winner even if he were a lone ranger.OG04 proved it.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    On a technical aspect, i have said before OG isn't the best event to judge individual talent. Because the OG is often seen by the gerneral public as the biggest sport event in the world, people tend to associate the winners as the best in the world. As for me, I often look upon winners from the Open (All England, Japan Open, and WC (although they allow 4 entries per coutnry)) for example as a better gauge of individual talent. Because the OG comes every 4 years, even the very best can be out of luck if they didn't peak at the right moment. For ex. Gold medalists Ji Xinpeng and Alan Budi Kusuma are the one i would say peaked at the right time. Surely there were better players than them in those era.
    OG Indeed isn't the best event to judge individual talent because it didnt meant to. Can't blame the general public for having a wrong perception but the players and coaches themselves having this mis-perfection. We can clearly see that from their emphasizing on OG by gaining points of qualification and everything.

    Ji Xinpeng and Alan may not be the number 1 in their times but it really doesn't matter. They grabbed the medal for their country and that is what really matters.

    About who peak at the right time, the whole point of each and every single game in this world was to see who peak (sum of skills+luck) during that time, who be the champion of that time only. That's why we have OG 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012 and so on when we could have stop many years ago.

  14. #133
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    I agree with oldhand. LYB 's job's on the line if he didn't deliver.See how some BFers always proclaim what a great coach(probably the most successful CHN coach according to some?) he is based on results?They don't say how great CHN is first.So LYB 's doing it for himself FIRST in his mind but publicly he will say he's doing it for the country because it is so honourable and how can anyone disagree if it's for the country? Try not to be conned.
    Yep, that's quite what I was thinking...
    (http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...&postcount=204)

  15. #134
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    I can see why the Olympics may not really look like a team event on the surface. The medals are awarded to individuals, not the country.

  16. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by V3i HoN6 View Post

    I would absolutely agree with him if this rule bring to SS series but it is not the case on Olympic game, or other team events. Forget about the football example if you like. In a Thomas cup event, if ChenYu, ChenHong, dont get to play while Hafiz Hashim get to play as second single for Malaysia. Will you cry for unfairness? Or should we take out Russian, Germany or France and put in China second team and INA second team intead?
    That is because Thomas cup is clearly an team event while the medal in Olympic are honored to the individual.

    If you ask player like Chen Yu or Chen Hong whether you feel more disappointing for not able to participate TC or Olympic, I sure he will pick OG. It is simply because OG is the title all players desire MOST (doesn't matter if you agree or not that its judge an individual talent). It is a shame for players like them, who has a much greater chance to win than, for instant, players from Canada and not able to play.

  17. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wong8Egg View Post
    That is because Thomas cup is clearly an team event while the medal in Olympic are honored to the individual.

    If you ask player like Chen Yu or Chen Hong whether you feel more disappointing for not able to participate TC or Olympic, I sure he will pick OG. It is simply because OG is the title all players desire MOST (doesn't matter if you agree or not that its judge an individual talent). It is a shame for players like them, who has a much greater chance to win than, for instant, players from Canada and not able to play.
    FYI, IOC is a private enterprise, not UN sanctioned or an international governement recognized body. It is a highly marketed tournament. That is why it has the most scandals and back door politics. If an athlete feel the highest honor to win an olympic, that's because it is the most hyped sport event.


    **Not so.
    federer, tiger wood, soccer elitists much prefer to win the US Open/wimbledon, US/British Open, World Cup, respectlvely, than a gold at the OG because these events reward individual performance rather than promoting their country. Take a look at some of the past olympic tennis winners, i doubt that they are the best in the world.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-15-2007 at 02:54 PM.

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