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  1. #137
    Regular Member nibaxiang's Avatar
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    Funny points from some of the members, indeed.

    If Olympics is about countries, then LYB is doing whatever possible for his country. What's wrong with that?

    If Olympics is about individual best, then look at LB's point. Is it fair to put entry limits for each country? If there were no limits, playsers from china will most likely still take the gold.

    Guys, you have to be reasonable. You can NOT just use whatever material to blame LYB, because you don't like what he did.
    Last edited by nibaxiang; 11-15-2007 at 04:27 PM.

  2. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    FYI, IOC is a private enterprise, not UN sanctioned or an international governement recognized body. It is a highly marketed tournament. That is why it has the most scandals and back door politics. If an athlete feel the highest honor to win an olympic, that's because it is the most hyped sport event.


    **Not so.
    federer, tiger wood, soccer elitists much prefer to win the US Open/wimbledon, US/British Open, World Cup, respectlvely, than a gold at the OG because these events reward individual performance rather than promoting their country. Take a look at some of the past olympic tennis winners, i doubt that they are the best in the world.
    Please re-read. I am saying the OG is the title that BADMINTON PLAYERS desire most and regardless if you believe the title does reflect the actual ranking.

    And my point is, since OG is viewed by most if not all players as the highest figure in badminton, how could some of the best skilled players in the world not allowed to play???

  3. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wong8Egg View Post
    Please re-read. I am saying the OG is the title that BADMINTON PLAYERS desire most and regardless if you believe the title does reflect the actual ranking.

    And my point is, since OG is viewed by most if not all players as the highest figure in badminton, how could some of the best skilled players in the world not allowed to play???
    no problem now that u have clarified yourself. The quote in red did said 'ALL PLAYERS' and that what led me said what i've said. I

  4. #140
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wai Shing View Post
    Eastern asian cultures: tend to be more "collective" minded

    Western cultures: tend to be more "indidualized" minded

    anyone took social psych at uni level yet lol?
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    ..here are a couple of the pics, from the thread which cooler brought up, above(left is western thinking; right is eastern thinking):


    Anyways, about this LYB and the past Olympics "match-fixing" issue, i'm just hoping the spirit and integrity of the Olympic Games by the players, coaches, officials etc. will continue to shine in next yr's edition. And IF, if there should be any "cheatings/tampering etc"(directly or indirectly, intentionally or unintentionally) going on (by any countries or players), in time, it will be revealed, just like the recent debacle and embarrassment with Marion Jones.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-15-2007 at 06:04 PM.

  5. #141
    Regular Member robin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    federer, tiger wood, soccer elitists much prefer to win the US Open/wimbledon, US/British Open, World Cup, respectlvely, than a gold at the OG because these events reward individual performance rather than promoting their country. Take a look at some of the past olympic tennis winners, i doubt that they are the best in the world.
    Hello, Uncle cooler, don't u know that a big portion of the prize money (if not all) that these guys win will go into their own pockets? If I were them, I might not even care about Olympic considering the lucrative prize money they can earn in the Grand Slams and Master Series, and winning Olympic to player like Federer is just a bonus.

  6. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by robin7 View Post
    Hello, Uncle cooler, don't u know that a big portion of the prize money (if not all) that these guys win will go into their own pockets? If I were them, I might not even care about Olympic considering the lucrative prize money they can earn in the Grand Slams and Master Series, and winning Olympic to player like Federer is just a bonus.
    that was my whole point but i purposely left out the money part, assuming that the readers would easily figure that out That is why badminton Opens with money prizes are better gauge of individual talents, my opinions expressed many times. That is why one of the component to increase badminton popularity and to attract more club players to national and international level, is higher prize money.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-16-2007 at 01:02 AM.

  7. #143
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robin7 View Post
    [...] the prize money... [...] will go into their own pockets?
    And what's wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin7 View Post
    Hello, Uncle cooler...
    Now we know how young someone really is

  8. #144
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Unfortunately for badminton, the SS prize money is paltry compared with tennis.

    But for some players, winning an Olympic gold means not only winning for the country and putting it on the world sports map with headline media coverage all around the world, creating international and local sports history, becoming a household name, and earning commercial endorsements but also being rewarded financially and in kind by the government, well wishers and admirers giving land, property, cars and other luxury goods.

    In Singapore, it means you'll become a millionaire overnight! Better than all other prize monies for local sports!

  9. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibaxiang View Post
    Funny points from some of the members, indeed.

    If Olympics is about countries, then LYB is doing whatever possible for his country. What's wrong with that?

    If Olympics is about individual best, then look at LB's point. Is it fair to put entry limits for each country? If there were no limits, playsers from china will most likely still take the gold.

    Guys, you have to be reasonable. You can NOT just use whatever material to blame LYB, because you don't like what he did.
    1. We are saying whatever he says he has been doing for the country has to do with doing for his own interests first.In taking care of his needs,he makes himself appear great and honourable by declaring he's doing it for his country.Did I say that's wrong? I'm just saying (don't know about Oldhand) LYB makes himself look like a hero when his behaviour resembles that of a coward.
    2. What makes you so sure that CHN will most likely take gold if there were no limits,NOW? MAS only sent 2 MD to DO and FO and they lifted 1.5 titles out of 2. Talk about hot shot quality!
    3.What is sure is that if there were no limits, LYB will make a mockery of Olympic values.Olympians are to show their best and not hold back according to match order.
    Actually I'm a bit curious about LYB's (first?) confession of match order. Does anyone know why he decided to bare one?Let's go through a few possibilities:
    A. He knew what he did was wrong so he had to justify in the name of country glory, making him look like a hero.He will do wrong,even if it makes him look bad as long as CHN come out tops.As it turns out(based on postings here),he appears heroic to (most?) CHN fans but despicable to (most?) non-CHN fans.
    B. He was very proud of his decision making prowess and wanted it on record.CHN will be impressed with his judgement and continue to believe in him.His job is assured.
    C. What he had done is going to happen again so the ones who are going to be affected can expect it and ask no questions.
    D. That decision came back to haunt him, he felt guilty and had sleepless nights;confessing will free him so he can sleep again..(well, until the next one...)
    E. He wanted BWF to know what he had done and can continue to do and there's nothing BWF can do to him,even though LYB's actions hurt Badminton's image as an Olympic sport.In other words, he's implying BWF is a toothless tiger?
    Can BWF do anything to further minimise LYB's match order inclinations?Why not? Just change the rule which states '3 is allowed when a country has 3 in top 4 ranking'.Amend it to '3 is allowed when a country has 3 in top 3 ranking.'

  10. #146
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    Above all by ordering a player to throw the match, LYB had cheated the badnminton fans who went and paid to watch the match. It wouldn't be that bad if Ye had gave Gong a w.o. But to play to lose is fraud on all of us who watch the match.

    What worth is the gold Medal? Did Gong deserve it? Did she beat her compatriot with her ability? The Olympic spirit is lost and might as well all the athletes take dope to win. I cant see the difference between this form of cheating from doping

  11. #147
    Regular Member wilfredlgf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnymak View Post
    I cant see the difference between this form of cheating from doping
    One is a breach of rule in the eye of law or regulations agreed amongst the governing bodies of the sport, the other is a matter of ethics, perception and personal choice.

    That is how big a difference it is - the first is gaining unfair advantage by using avenues considered illegal hence 'cheating', while the latter is not.

  12. #148
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Faced with the same situation, what will you do if you were in LYB's position?

    I would expect conflicting answers, depending on one's experience and standing with players/other coaches/etc, pressure from the top to win the gold medal, the reaction/cooperation from one's players and less from the general public, especially if they are foreign nationalities.

    Unfortunately one's own ethical beliefs will remain subservient to the higher ups if one wishes to keep one's job.

    The ideal scenario is of course to let the best player win for he/she rightly deserves it after putting in so much hardwork. The paying public deserves to get their money's worth. The country and players will not be looked upon with disdain as 'cheats, frauds, despicables, etc".

    Given the choice, I'll rather win with honour and fair play!

  13. #149
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Exclamation Olympics: Spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play are now missing

    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post

    Can BWF do anything to further minimise LYB's match order inclinations? Why not? Just change the rule which states '3 is allowed when a country has 3 in top 4 ranking'. Amend it to '3 is allowed when a country has 3 in top 3 ranking.'

    Hey pjswift,

    Let us refer to one of the Fundamental Principles of Olympism, Point #4., which states that;
    The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practising sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play. The organisation, administration and management of sport must be controlled by independent sports organisations.

    Perhaps this Point #4 was written long ago... to encourage more participants to the earlier Olympics.

    And this Point #4 was made concerning the individual participants, hoping that they will participate with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

    However, things have changed... Countries are now using the Olympics to show how good they are (in producing sports champions). Politics and Sports are now inseparable.

    Our BWF is still allowing a strong Badminton nation to clean sweep all the medals (Gold, Silver and Bronze) in ONE particular event. (Just a comparison: FIFA does not allow strong Football nations to send more than ONE team).

    Because we now have Politics between nations involved in the Olympics, I am seriously hoping that BWF (or any many other sports organisations) will allow only ONE representative from each nation to participate in ONE event. This will be more meaningful, in the sense that;
    1. More nations can participate.
    2. From each nation, their national champion (or best candidate) is to do battle with likewise from other nations.

    Yes, from what I have suggested... only ONE medal could be awarded to ONE nation for ONE event. No nation will have any chance of playing foul, like walkover/early retirement/etc... by match fixing.

    Perhaps many will disagree with me on this one.

    And yes, we will not be able to watch the best 2 players/pairs playing each other if they are from the same country.

    My above suggestion is made because I have now found that mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play are all missing in our Modern Olympics.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    ***
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 11-16-2007 at 02:40 PM.

  14. #150
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    I think soccer is a different case... In soccer, or a similar sport, a team is composed of many players. That's many players per event. In badminton, if you send one team per event, there would be at most two players per event. Given the number of international players in the most prominent coutnries, I don't think this would be a good way to go.

  15. #151
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Default Ridiculous Wimpy Wins A Medal?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc
    Because we now have Politics between nations involved in the Olympics, I am seriously hoping that BWF (or any many other sports organisations) will allow only ONE representative from each nation to participate in ONE event. This will be more meaningful, in the sense that;
    1. More nations can participate.
    2. From each nation, their national champion (or best candidate) is to do battle with likewise from other nations.
    Such a restriction might be unfair to many a sporting nation.

    For instance, many of the world's top sprinters might be denied an Olympic appearance (and a possible medal) simply because they happen to be from the same nation.

    The scenario could also descend to a farce if someone at the leading edge were to be injured during the Games

    Let's take a badminton example...

    Assume, for argument's sake, that one nation is allowed only one competitor per event.

    Here's an imaginary set of results from the MS QF :
    1. Lee Chong Wei (MAS) beats Lin Dan (CHN)
    2. Taufik Hidayat (INA) beats Peter Gade (DEN)
    3. Ronald Susilo (SIN) beats Anup Sridhar (IND)
    4. Stuart Gomez (AUS) beats Tien Minh Nguyen (VIE)

    Let's assume the SF results are :
    1. Lee Chong Wei (MAS) beats Taufik Hidayat (INA)
    2. Ronald Susilo (SIN) beats Stuart Gomez (AUS)

    Further assuming that Lee Chong Wei beats Ronald Susilo and that Taufik Hidayat twists an ankle or strains his back when playing Stuart Gomez, we have :
    MS Gold - Lee Chong Wei (MAS)
    MS Silver - Ronald Susilo (SIN)
    MS Bronze - Stuart Gomez (AUS)

    We also have Taufik Hidayat (INA) in 4th place.

    Now, where does this leave Bao Chunlai, Chen Jin and Chen Yu?
    Won't Olympic history record Ronald Susilo and Stuart Gomez as the second and third greatest badminton players of 2008?

    Li Yongbo or no Li Yongbo, I'd much rather have a great competition with one nation dominating the draw... than a farce of a competition with an Angolan or Pakistani badminton player making it into Olympic history.

  16. #152
    Regular Member volcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    Such a restriction might be unfair to many a sporting nation.

    For instance, many of the world's top sprinters might be denied an Olympic appearance (and a possible medal) simply because they happen to be from the same nation.

    The scenario could also descend to a farce if someone at the leading edge were to be injured during the Games

    Let's take a badminton example...

    Assume, for argument's sake, that one nation is allowed only one competitor per event.

    Here's an imaginary set of results from the MS QF :
    1. Lee Chong Wei (MAS) beats Lin Dan (CHN)
    2. Taufik Hidayat (INA) beats Peter Gade (DEN)
    3. Ronald Susilo (SIN) beats Anup Sridhar (IND)
    4. Stuart Gomez (AUS) beats Tien Minh Nguyen (VIE)

    Let's assume the SF results are :
    1. Lee Chong Wei (MAS) beats Taufik Hidayat (INA)
    2. Ronald Susilo (SIN) beats Stuart Gomez (AUS)

    Further assuming that Lee Chong Wei beats Ronald Susilo and that Taufik Hidayat twists an ankle or strains his back when playing Stuart Gomez, we have :
    MS Gold - Lee Chong Wei (MAS)
    MS Silver - Ronald Susilo (SIN)
    MS Bronze - Stuart Gomez (AUS)

    We also have Taufik Hidayat (INA) in 4th place.

    Now, where does this leave Bao Chunlai, Chen Jin and Chen Yu?
    Won't Olympic history record Ronald Susilo and Stuart Gomez as the second and third greatest badminton players of 2008?

    Li Yongbo or no Li Yongbo, I'd much rather have a great competition with one nation dominating the draw... than a farce of a competition with an Angolan or Pakistani badminton player making it into Olympic history.
    Agreed... its about exhibition of best skills

  17. #153
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    Chris, thank you so much for lifting out the Olympic principle. Appreciate it.
    Oldhand gave an excellent illustration of why one rep per country is idealistic but not realistic.Also, in some events,it may lead to a few byes,giving some players an unequal starting point.
    Two rep per country will take care of match order problem because in OG08,the draw will incorporate nationality separation, unlike SS.
    However, in the spirit of fairness, no country should be deprived of a 3-medal sweep of gold, silver and bronze if indeed that country is capable of it.That , however , should be proven by a country taking the top 3 rankings in an event but not 3 out of the top 4.
    Which is why I suggested BWF now has a good reason to tighten up the criteria for 3 rep per country if top 3 ranking to minimise match order incidence in view of LYB's confession.

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