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  1. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    1) It's called behaviourial pattern or trend of thought. You also know, just saja nak loyar buruk balik

    2) I dont have crystal ball - but it's a proven fact - Msian players buckle under intense pressure, less pressure they perform better,and I'm not the only one who say so.
    Sure, setting goals & high targets are good. Too much will cause a meltdown as the media calls it.
    Drilling & pounding them - "You must win gold or else, you must win gold or else", -ve reinforcement. It's demorilizing. It's called old style of management. You also know.
    +ve motivation would be - "you are good, work hard, you can beat them."
    (And all this are proven by very successful people, so we no need to debate)

    Remember Park Joo Bong when asked why KKK/TBH lost to Japan's pairs, both times he say they're under pressure as top pair, too nervous. For Japanese pairs, only good performance. I dont qualify to comment but PJB was World Class player, his comments, diplomatic or not, should count for sthing.

    And yes, you'll say if they want to be champs, overcome it, etc, etc, etc. Sure they must rise higher, work harder and all that. Will putting them in pressure cooker them the next 8 months do any good?

    And about celebrating SEA Games thingy, huh? who's celebrating?? The Sports Minister & Prime Minister said the good results must be continued to OG.

    In real life, I've found that +ve motivation works gets better results, with my subordinates & my superiors, regardless of race, country, religion. Hitting hard doesnt do any good long term.

    Msian players are faced with intense criticism in everything they do, worse than celebrity. And worse than the sportsmen you mention, at least they earn millions per year - so the pressure also equivalent to the millions that they earn.

    In my humble opinion, the pressure doesnt correspond with the rewards, not for badminton. After they retire at 30+, most still have to slog just to make ends meet. But that's another issue.

    And again, do you see Indonesia's fans, sports association, etc, pressurizing and critizing their players as much? Or South Korea? Or Denmark ? Or even China. And they have won OG gold.
    "Behaviourial pattern or trend of thought" ??? Getting scientific, now eh?? Can you kindly provide me with some reference about this "behaviourial pattern or trend of thought"???

    On your Malaysian players' trend to buckle on pressure, I find it interesting. Hmmm ... what about Hafiz ? There is no pressure for the lad to deliver, but he is still stuggling to get into 2nd gear. What about our Msian tennis players, certainly no pressure or whatsoever but do you see a single Msian making news out there??? Our football team, no pressure on them to win the Asian cup, but look what happened to us.

    Li Yongbo takes no prisoners in his coaching and management style. you dont deliver, he show you the door. But look at the titles, China have won under him. And look at the players Li Yongbo developed.

    Sir Alex Ferguson is another hard manager. His players are scared of him and they know if they step out of line, he ship them out. Look at what happened to Beckham, Ince, RvN etc. But look at the titles Sir Alex won.

    Roger Federer is on his way to become the greatest tennis player. He is where he is today because he keeps on pushing himself to get better. Do you think his coach can make Federer be the player he is today if he didnt pushed him hard??? I really doubt Federer's coach will say "tak apa tak menang punya ok, relaks aje"

    If you think Msian shuttlers face intense criticism in everything they do, let me remind you that it is nothing as compared to the Chinese or Indonesian shuttlers.

  2. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pemuda View Post
    1) "Behaviourial pattern or trend of thought" ??? Getting scientific, now eh?? Can you kindly provide me with some reference about this "behaviourial pattern or trend of thought"???

    2) On your Malaysian players' trend to buckle on pressure, I find it interesting. Hmmm ... what about Hafiz ? There is no pressure for the lad to deliver, but he is still stuggling to get into 2nd gear. What about our Msian tennis players, certainly no pressure or whatsoever but do you see a single Msian making news out there??? Our football team, no pressure on them to win the Asian cup, but look what happened to us.


    3) If you think Msian shuttlers face intense criticism in everything they do, let me remind you that it is nothing as compared to the Chinese or Indonesian shuttlers.
    1) Hiyaaa, I'm sure you know all this. The 4 Lahaye temperaments, personality tests, passive-agrresive etc, etc, that I dont have time to search. Each personality type has certain ways of responding, body language what it means. If you have been in the working circle a while, I'm sure you have gone to some of these courses.

    2) a) Btw, Msia players buckle under pressure part is about badminton players. That is of course assuming they already fullfill the other criterias : i.e. have the skills, work hard (X5), etc, etc. That also goes for other sports.

    Read today's Utusan Malaysia, interview with Rexy http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/arki...1.htm&arc=hive
    Rexy implored on all parties not to put to much pressure, this is the non Msian coach talking. So, I'm not the 'weird' fella who think so.

    Too much pressure begets burden, too much burden ->failure. Failure -> lost of confidence -> more failure, becomes self fulfilling prophecy. There goes the vicious cycle. Best example is LCW.

    And we are talking about KKK/TBH. TBH esp the pressure gets to him, at WC 2007, it happened.

    Another example = CTF/LWW. Rexy said one time (not me, the coach said)"they put too much pressure on themselves." When they put pressurized themselves too much, lose.

    b) You gave tennis & football, sports which Msia is not excelling in. Take sailing & Equesterian, Msia is Asian Games champ & SEA Games champ. I dont think these 2 sports are OG sports. Also no pressure, no expectation, they won.

    3) The Indonesian fans in this forum dont critize their players as much. They said so and also said we Msian fans, media and the government, are too critical of our baddy players. Do a search, this has been discussed.
    "Nothing compared" eh?
    Was Kido/Setiawan as intensely critized as KKK/TBH when they were in a slump 1st 6 months of 2007? The Indonesian forum members here said they were not = the fans are not, the media are not, the government are not.

    Remember too when Park JB quit coaching in Msia, he gave the reason " public expectation is very high." He's in Japan now, still think the same.

    China, perhaps, perhaps not, at least CCTV5 & GD Sports are supportive. Our Msian media are not,very critical - following the Sports Ministry lead.

    I said intensely critized means including their every move, off court, private live, what they wear, - why do you think LCW & WMC didnt announce their relationship in Msia like LD & XXF? When China media intv WMC, WMC said it's cos LCW very popular in Msia, it's better for to keep low profile.
    The China players (LD, XXF, Fu/Cai, Bao), are more relaxed, dont have to worry what people will critize like LCW does.

    A non badminton example for Msia players : Nicol David won awards for Best Woman squash player of the year, won 8 titles. She lost 2. What thanks she got ? For the 2 tourneys she lost, must give "penjelasan" for all the funds the government spend to finance her training.
    From what I read in the media, Federer or footballers get better appreciation.
    If I'm a sportsperson, I'll rather fund myself if that's the case.

    4) a) And the issue on Hafiz, for the upteenth time, he's with Nusa Mahsuri, not BAM, no amount of pressure from NSC will work. He can play as long as his club wants him to, like the KLRC players.
    b) How do you know Hafiz not under pressure? Might be too much pressure too after AE 2003, that's why cannot perform.

    In any case, lets agree to disagree on this,no point wasting energy to debate further...(need to get some work done)

  3. #20
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    Rexy should not crack a whip.. he should whip it Indiana Jones style.

  4. #21
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmm..just my 5 rupiahs..

    Quote Originally Posted by george@chongwei View Post
    from www.thestar.com.my

    Badminton: Rexy cracks whip
    By LIM TEIK HUAT

    PETALING JAYA: It is hard to discard old habits but coach Rexy Mainaky wants the top doubles pair of Koo Kien Keat-Tan Boon Heong to stop the tendency to experiment with their game in what will be a defining year for them.
    ..from what i've read in the article, and this is something that many of us probably realized, i think what Rexy is doing or trying to instill in his top MD pair are focus and an attitude of seriousness/taking nothing for granted..Rexy felt it after their AE and Swiss Open titles last yr, and sure is, his gut feeling came to reality as his young MD pair struggled throughout the rest of the year (many threads/articles touched on this, in BC as well)..But the good thing is, they still have time to correct whatever defiencies/weaknesses/flaws there are in their armor before the Beijing Olympics rolls around..
    Quote Originally Posted by Pemuda View Post
    If you think Msian shuttlers face intense criticism in everything they do, let me remind you that it is nothing as compared to the Chinese or Indonesian shuttlers.
    ..maybe it's not popular in this forum, but i know our Pemuda is surely the one dishing out "the intense criticism in everything they do"..
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    3) The Indonesian fans in this forum dont critize their players as much. They said so and also said we Msian fans, media and the government, are too critical of our baddy players. Do a search, this has been discussed.
    "Nothing compared" eh?
    Was Kido/Setiawan as intensely critized as KKK/TBH when they were in a slump 1st 6 months of 2007? The Indonesian forum members here said they were not = the fans are not, the media are not, the government are not.
    ..i think some INA fans, esp. in this forum, do "criticize" their players, to an extent..But perhaps they're not so "vocal" or "critical", as much as M'sian fans, because maybe there are much more M'sian fans in here..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-03-2008 at 06:21 PM.

  5. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..

    ..i think some INA fans, esp. in this forum, do "criticize" their players, to an extent..But perhaps they're not so "vocal" or "critical", as much as M'sian fans, because maybe there are much more M'sian fans in here..
    I meant not only fans but media & Government, in which the Indonesians have already said it's not as critical as Msia media & government.
    From the Indonesia articles I've read online, their media not so critical. Indonesia forum members also say their government doesnt pressure as hard as Msia. Doesnt mean no pressure, just not as hard

    Fans = I also take into account fans response outside the forum in Msia. The general public (90%) are also critical, lose one time - "they no use one lah." LCW lost SemiF Denmark open due to knee injury, no sympathies at all, say he's whining <Sigh>
    Indonesia BC members also say we Msia fans are very critical, after comparing Indonesia fans response outside the forum.

    Read the article in Utusan Msia in the Msia Open 2008 thread, this year Rexy started off with asking everyone not to put too much pressure on the players as it will cause them to panic & lose.
    Read TBH's responses, it's very obvious he's effected by the pressure, not surprising considering his inexperience & personality (Pemuda will have another field say with this).
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 01-03-2008 at 06:58 PM.

  6. #23
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default A bit off topic-Critical in what way??..

    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    I meant not only fans but media & Government, in which the Indonesians have already said it's not as critical as Msia media & government.
    From the Indonesia articles I've read online, their media not so critical. Indonesia forum members also say their government doesnt pressure as hard as Msia. Doesnt mean no pressure, just not as hard

    Fans = I also take into account fans response outside the forum in Msia. The general public (90%) are also critical, lose one time - "they no use one lah." LCW lost SemiF Denmark open due to knee injury, no sympathies at all, say he's whining <Sigh>
    Indonesia BC members also say we Msia fans are very critical, after comparing Indonesia fans response outside the forum..

    China - They have so many sports they are good at, the pressure sorta spread out I guess. Li De Quan would know better.
    ..are you referring/comparing "critical" as in something similar to..... Pemuda's "critical" p.o.v.(point of view)?!..
    In INA's case, true, I would say the "criticisms" (media, govt., fans) are there but more subtle and tend to be on the "concerned" side.
    *I know you probably understand most of the Indonesian language, so if you like you can go to an INA-based badminton related website, one of a few out there, www.bulutangkis.com and read some of the articles in there; mostly related to INA badminton.(not sure if you've been there or not)
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-03-2008 at 07:08 PM.

  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    1) Hiyaaa, I'm sure you know all this. The 4 Lahaye temperaments, personality tests, passive-agrresive etc, etc, that I dont have time to search. Each personality type has certain ways of responding, body language what it means. If you have been in the working circle a while, I'm sure you have gone to some of these courses.

    2) a) Btw, Msia players buckle under pressure part is about badminton players. That is of course assuming they already fullfill the other criterias : i.e. have the skills, work hard (X5), etc, etc. That also goes for other sports.

    Read today's Utusan Malaysia, interview with Rexy http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/arki...1.htm&arc=hive
    Rexy implored on all parties not to put to much pressure, this is the non Msian coach talking. So, I'm not the 'weird' fella who think so.

    Too much pressure begets burden, too much burden ->failure. Failure -> lost of confidence -> more failure, becomes self fulfilling prophecy. There goes the vicious cycle. Best example is LCW.

    And we are talking about KKK/TBH. TBH esp the pressure gets to him, at WC 2007, it happened.

    Another example = CTF/LWW. Rexy said one time (not me, the coach said)"they put too much pressure on themselves." When they put pressurized themselves too much, lose.

    b) You gave tennis & football, sports which Msia is not excelling in. Take sailing & Equesterian, Msia is Asian Games champ & SEA Games champ. I dont think these 2 sports are OG sports. Also no pressure, no expectation, they won.

    3) The Indonesian fans in this forum dont critize their players as much. They said so and also said we Msian fans, media and the government, are too critical of our baddy players. Do a search, this has been discussed.
    "Nothing compared" eh?
    Was Kido/Setiawan as intensely critized as KKK/TBH when they were in a slump 1st 6 months of 2007? The Indonesian forum members here said they were not = the fans are not, the media are not, the government are not.

    Remember too when Park JB quit coaching in Msia, he gave the reason " public expectation is very high." He's in Japan now, still think the same.

    China, perhaps, perhaps not, at least CCTV5 & GD Sports are supportive. Our Msian media are not,very critical - following the Sports Ministry lead.

    I said intensely critized means including their every move, off court, private live, what they wear, - why do you think LCW & WMC didnt announce their relationship in Msia like LD & XXF? When China media intv WMC, WMC said it's cos LCW very popular in Msia, it's better for to keep low profile.
    The China players (LD, XXF, Fu/Cai, Bao), are more relaxed, dont have to worry what people will critize like LCW does.

    A non badminton example for Msia players : Nicol David won awards for Best Woman squash player of the year, won 8 titles. She lost 2. What thanks she got ? For the 2 tourneys she lost, must give "penjelasan" for all the funds the government spend to finance her training.
    From what I read in the media, Federer or footballers get better appreciation.
    If I'm a sportsperson, I'll rather fund myself if that's the case.

    4) a) And the issue on Hafiz, for the upteenth time, he's with Nusa Mahsuri, not BAM, no amount of pressure from NSC will work. He can play as long as his club wants him to, like the KLRC players.
    b) How do you know Hafiz not under pressure? Might be too much pressure too after AE 2003, that's why cannot perform.

    In any case, lets agree to disagree on this,no point wasting energy to debate further...(need to get some work done)
    On your reference to the 4 Lahaye temperaments and your massive search on the internet, I must say you indeed used one brush to paint an entire potrait. Firstly Ms , you do not know me. We aint no childhood buddies nor have we ever met. As such, your application of the 4 treatments are flawed. Instead what you actually did was you made an "assumption" that I will still be negative over KKK/TBH even if they land that OG. For someone who claimed to be in the working circle for sometime and having attended numerous courses, I find it unbelievable to say the least.

    Malaysia excelling in equesterian!?? You mean by winning some gold medal in the SEA games competing against the likes of Brunei, Laos, Cambodia ... to you is excelling??
    Sailing ... you consider Malaysia a powerhouse in this sport??? Hmmm ... how come I dont read Malaysia making waves in the sailing world???

    You mentioned too much pressure will lead to our sports people buckling under pressure. Well, I put to you tennis and football as an example because there are no pressure there. Our tennis players are not expected to win. They have no pressure whatsoever etc. Our football team were not expected to win the Asian Cup, no pressure again ... but look what happened??

    Just because you dont see any Indonesian being critical about Indonesia players in this forum, you make an assumption that Indonesians in general are supportive of their badminton players and have less expectations???

    Whether Hafiz is with Nusa Mahsuri or Mickey Mouse club, it does not matter. The point is the lad is still not producing despite the public expecting him to deliver nothing in each tournament. He has no pressure at all to deliver. In every tournament, our eyes are on LCW not Hafiz. So in terms of pressure Hafiz got it pretty easy .... as such, with no pressure at all, how come the lad is still not delivering??
    Last edited by Pemuda; 01-03-2008 at 08:20 PM.

  8. #25
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default ^^Eerrmm..^^

    ..eaglehelang is a she...She's not a "dude"...Perhaps a "dudette"?!..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-03-2008 at 08:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..eaglehelang is a she...She's not a "dude"...Perhaps a "dudette"..
    Ohhh yes... just checked the profile. My mistake.

    It should be "Ms" then.

  10. #27
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    The more pressure the Malaysian pairs receive from their coaches, media, fans, and public, the better it will be for Ina pairs...because usually the Malaysian pairs do not perform well when they are under pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post

    Too much pressure begets burden, too much burden ->failure. Failure -> lost of confidence -> more failure, becomes self fulfilling prophecy. There goes the vicious cycle. Best example is LCW.
    After our last Thomas Cup win back in 1992, our government rewarded our shuttlers big time. Made them millionaires overnight and all. But how come despite such a good motivation and recognition by Malaysia, our shuttlers went into a free fall after that???

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    Quote Originally Posted by indra View Post
    The more pressure the Malaysian pairs receive from their coaches, media, fans, and public, the better it will be for Ina pairs...because usually the Malaysian pairs do not perform well when they are under pressure.
    But like that how to be champion? How to win that Olympic gold in Beijing?? Want to be a champion and win that Olympic gold sure have to face up to pressure and thrive on it.

    In Beijing, we cannot just empty out the entire stadium, change the umpires and line judges to Malaysians whenever Malaysia shuttlers take to the court, right???

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    what i've said is going to happen.
    its too clear.now u will debate(not argument) about the same issue with no points n confused other ppls.maybe in 3 pages.

    good luck.i'll stay out of this.

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pemuda View Post
    On your reference to the 4 Lahaye temperaments and your massive search on the internet, I must say you indeed used one brush to paint an entire potrait. Firstly Ms , you do not know me. We aint no childhood buddies nor have we ever met. As such, your application of the 4 treatments are flawed. Instead what you actually did was you made an "assumption" that I will still be negative over KKK/TBH even if they land that OG. For someone who claimed to be in the working circle for sometime and having attended numerous courses, I find it unbelievable to say the least.

    OK, since today I'm free, shall answer this.
    I loyar buruk, you want to follow suit kah? It a challenge to prove me wrong, i.e. that Pemuda will give praise, he he.

    On your comments so far (this is over a couple of months) in this forum about KKK/TBH(read again your own posts), you were never happy with their achievements, but critize, predict failure, to put it midly - so,what else am I supposed to think? Other BC members have tried reasoning too, you dont accept.

    Malaysia excelling in equesterian!?? You mean by winning some gold medal in the SEA games competing against the likes of Brunei, Laos, Cambodia ... to you is excelling?? They also won 1 silver & 2 bronze in Doha, the fact it's Category B sport, they had to pay their own way to Doha. They're still paying their own way for some tourneys, I think.
    Sailing ... you consider Malaysia a powerhouse in this sport??? Hmmm ... how come I dont read Malaysia making waves in the sailing world???
    That was in reference to the pressure issue. No pressure, they won.
    I didnt say they are powerhouse cos sailing was also Category B sports till they won gold in Doha. For future, I dont consider Msia will be big in world level sailing, it's an expensive sport, unless the government willing to invest in it.


    You mentioned too much pressure will lead to our sports people buckling under pressure. Well, I put to you tennis and football as an example because there are no pressure there. Our tennis players are not expected to win. They have no pressure whatsoever etc. Our football team were not expected to win the Asian Cup, no pressure again ... but look what happened??
    Again, I also mentioned provided all other criteria are fulfilled- have the skills, talent,work hard.
    I also put Sailing & equestrian as example cos they were not expected to win, also no pressure, they won. After winning Asia Games, got pressure, dunno yet, these 2 sports are rather new

    Football :from what I read in the press, I interpret the pressure is : "Perform or else" mode.

    In some tournament in Europe, the road cycling team had the same pressure/drilling -"must do well to prove ourselves in this event or else", they flopped. Pressure->they lost.

    Tennis : are we any good in tennis in the 1st place, skill wise? <Shrug>

    Just because you dont see any Indonesian being critical about Indonesia players in this forum, you make an assumption that Indonesians in general are supportive of their badminton players and have less expectations???
    Not just this forum, also Indonesia friends outside this forum, got many Indonesians working in Msia mah.
    I also mentioned - their media, read for yourself the tone they write, not as critical as our media, a news report can be slanted many ways.

    As for making assumptions, read also my reply to ctjad. It's the Indonesian fans who say Msia fans more critical (they making assumptions then?). They(fans, media, government) have high expections but they dont bash as much when their players lose - this is also what they tell me, ask your own Indonesian friends and see.

    Whether Hafiz is with Nusa Mahsuri or Mickey Mouse club, it does not matter. The point is the lad is still not producing despite the public expecting him to deliver nothing in each tournament. He has no pressure at all to deliver. In every tournament, our eyes are on LCW not Hafiz. So in terms of pressure Hafiz got it pretty easy .... as such, with no pressure at all, how come the lad is still not delivering??
    From the KLRC players, Lee TS, Sairol, Roslin, CCE/KLRC partner, Joanne Quay, Lim Pek Siah - in terms of pressure, less. Other than LTS,they dont shine either - other than age factor,
    Hafiz is dubbed yo-yo King here, tak kuasa want to waste some more energy talking about him. Think about CCE/CCM re-partnering again better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pemuda View Post
    After our last Thomas Cup win back in 1992, our government rewarded our shuttlers big time. Made them millionaires overnight and all. But how come despite such a good motivation and recognition by Malaysia, our shuttlers went into a free fall after that???
    Yes, yes, the rewarding part. That was 15 years ago. Coach was different, management was different (though not necessary better)
    Current Rewards scheme, some countries have surpassed us. Currently, Msia's rewards for OG gold = RM160K, far less than Spore, Korea (it was reported in the newspapers). RM160K want to buy new teres house also not enuf. Spore is S$1 million.
    SEA Games reward payment, Indonesia even higher than Singapore after exchange rates(read the SEA Games thread).

    Back to KKK/TBH, in this aspect, Rexy wouldnt let them become big headed to avoid any form of free falling, whether from the sky or mountain

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Back to KKK/TBH, in this aspect, Rexy wouldnt let them become big headed to avoid any form of free falling, whether from the sky or mountain
    From my readings of Pemuda's posts so far, he is critical of Koo/Tan mainly because of Koo's image (ear-rings, show-off attitude, etc, which I stress may not reflect his true character of course). Once the tendency to be Becham-esque sets in, Pemuda thinks that they will not achieve big things.

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    IMHO, pressure can work both ways....one is to motivate oneself to achieve the target, but, it can also backfire.

    Just look at Rexy's infamous comments on having 4 MD in the WC Semi-Finals last year...it was supposed to be a pressure to the players to perform their best....yet...it backfired and they failed to perform.

    I am also inclined to agree with eaglehelang that one has the tendency to perform well when he/she is not under pressure....just try your best

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pemuda View Post
    But like that how to be champion? How to win that Olympic gold in Beijing?? Want to be a champion and win that Olympic gold sure have to face up to pressure and thrive on it.
    Easier said than done IMHO. Look at Lin Dan. He crumbled under intense pressure in the Olympics 2004, World Championships 2005, and Asian Games 2006. He also admitted that the pressure got in to him which was partly the cause of his defeat too.

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