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  1. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    So, who was to be blamed for his loss, if not for Lin Dan himself He had the chances to seal up the match without any controversies and he failed to do that.

    (Note: I am not blaming the player's inability to win earlier as a cause for the eventual controversies happening latter, but, more for his eventual defeat I hope this will clear up the misunderstanding).

    Move on ppl.....
    Thanks for the modifications, points well taken and no bad feelings

    btw, I thought the post way back at #140 was your last, sorry to have you stay up late for more

  2. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    reading from your comments, i feel like you feel that the injustice that happened to LD in korea is more important than the injustice to LCW in china because according to you LD could have won the KO if not for the last call that he did not agree with. however i feel that both LCW and LD might have been robbed but i think LD was luckier.
    ...
    i saw LD throw the racket out of frustration and not aiming at anyone in particular. but maybe after he threw the racket over to the opponent's side LM said something. maybe even curse him. maybe because he feels that LD was aiming the racket at somebody even though LD was not. and in turn LD reacted to whatever LM said. what really happened? only the people on that court at the time knows. we could only speculate.
    Leen, I agree that LCW could have the possibility for wining MSF CO 07 (I'm always with you since the hills of Ipoh is so attractive)

    btw, not the same with Eagle, we just had some minor brush-ins. That's why she flies, while I'm on the ground

  3. #156
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    ...Unless there is a fix to the line judging system, it's difficult removing bias from future SS competitions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    Thanks for the modifications, points well taken and no bad feelings

    btw, I thought the post way back at #140 was your last, sorry to have you stay up late for more
    ...looks like we have somekind of an "middle-ground agreement" here!..
    Btw, i was looking for cooler, who's arguably the staunchest and one of the "die-hard" fans of LD, in BC, to come in and somewhat give you support. But i think he knew that this small discussion is most likely going nowhere and for a lost cause...anyway...

    *Btw, for Birdwood's info (this i hope badMania won't mind me "revealing") : i'm sure you've realized badMania is a loyal follower of baddy, but he's also related "directly" to the world of high level academia/universities. So yes, like eaglehelang has mentioned, he is quite fair in his arguments and will have facts collected first before he presents his arguments....Although, i may say, ahem, once in a while he can be a bit "patriotic" in his support/views (i'll let you figure what country he supports)..

  4. #157
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    ctjcad, the discussion was too hot for cooler to get involved and stay cool at the same time, so he chooses to stay away

    I will take your words for badMania since you are our BC librarian, detective, welcome committee, ... sorry I need more fingers for the hats you wear

  5. #158
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Off topic-It's okay and no problem..

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    ctjcad, the discussion was too hot for cooler to get involved and stay cool at the same time, so he chooses to stay away

    I will take your words for badMania since you are our BC librarian, detective, welcome committee, ... sorry I need more fingers for the hats you wear
    ..glad to help you navigate and familiarize yourself with the other BCers...
    Btw, if you're wondering who's badMania, here's a pic (one of many in BC) of him (and other BCers) during the 2006 S'pore Open:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...t=33674&page=2 (post #22)

  6. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..glad to help you navigate and familiarize yourself with the other BCers...
    Thanks for the link, I have to say he's a better debater than you do, and also a very good looking fellow comparing to ...where's your picture anyway

  7. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...looks like we have somekind of an "middle-ground agreement" here!..

    *Btw, ....Although, i may say, ahem, once in a while he can be a bit "patriotic" in his support/views (i'll let you figure what country he supports)..
    That's easy, Badmania already revealed it in his reply to me, just a few posts before yours, he he.

    Meanwhile, we shall wait for their 'hearing' & outcome, then the heated discussions will re-start.
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 01-29-2008 at 05:27 PM.

  8. #161
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Off topic-Hey..

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    Thanks for the link, I have to say he's a better debater than you do...
    ...i thought i'm only a detective for the Agency of BadmintonCentral Detectives??..
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    That's easy, Badmania already revealed it in his reply to me, just a few posts before yours, he he.

    Meanwhile, we shall wait for their 'hearing' & outcome, then the heated discussions will re-start.
    ..yes, i was giving some tips to Birdwood....And yes, this could be the calm before another "storm" (if there'll be a hearing & outcome with BWF for this 2008 KO incident)..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-29-2008 at 05:49 PM.

  9. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    Thanks for the link, I have to say he's a better debater than you do, and also a very good looking fellow comparing to ...where's your picture anyway
    Thanks for the compliments

    Meanwhile, chris's pic can be found somewhere in BC....too lazy to dig it up

  10. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    *Btw, for Birdwood's info (this i hope badMania won't mind me "revealing") : i'm sure you've realized badMania is a loyal follower of baddy, but he's also related "directly" to the world of high level academia/universities. So yes, like eaglehelang has mentioned, he is quite fair in his arguments and will have facts collected first before he presents his arguments....Although, i may say, ahem, once in a while he can be a bit "patriotic" in his support/views (i'll let you figure what country he supports)..
    Hahahaha.....naughty naughty u as always

  11. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    hiya, bad of me, sori, sori, the 'r' easier to remember than 'z'.
    And yes, at 1st I didnt quite get why they keep mentioning it, so went to read the WC 2006 again. The main similarity I could find was in both LCW's reaction & subsequent lost was critised as "mentally weak."

    And , I was trying to point their attention to CO 2007. With both of us, maybe can succeed, eh?
    i hope so. i really like them to pay more attention to the bad line calls rather than mental attack on the players

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    I never said my argument was perfect. But it was closer to the truth than any of your arguments. No one can deny that LD won the point after the last bad call, which was not corrected by the umpire in MSF KO 08. As I said over and over, I don't like to speculate what would happen if this or that had happened. I only go by what's on the book

    I'm sure we can disagree on the outcome of MSF KO 08. We're all entitled to our opinions, that's what the forum is about
    agree. nobody's argument is perfect since we are not there in the first place and really we are not LD and LM and we dont know how they react to the situation that was unfolding.

    just my opinion, the last call that the umpire did not overturned to LD advantage was not a blatant bad call as the ones that was overturned earlier. and trying to be a fair umpire (as he did wondefully when he overturned the previous obvious bad calls) he had no conviction that the call was bad. according to some the shuttle lands quite close to the lines. but maybe LD having had four calls overturned in his favour was really convince that the call was bad yet again especially it was a crucial point for him and did not take into account that the umpire had been fair before and thus he should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point rather than throwing his racket around. now in a normal match, if the umpire upheld the call most players would not argue too much. but this being korea open and it's reputation of being biased to foreign players LD might have reacted strongly. no matter what, i still think his act of throwing the racket was wrong whether he was provoked or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    I would say again that LCW was given bad line calls by Chn linesmen in MSF CO 07. I was very angry at what happened and sympathized him for suffering the unfairness. In fact I admired LCW more for his manner, courage, and playing skills more than those of LD. Once, I even suggested LCW should be the would #1 baddy player without knowing how it was calculated from all previous years. But LCW being wronged in CO 07 does not mean LD should be mis-treated in MSF KO 08. Unless there is a fix to the line judging system, it's difficult removing bias from future SS competitions.
    yes, i am sad for all players who have had to fight against not just their opponents but the bias of the officials too. be it LD or LCW or even TH. i am proud of LCW's manner in the sense that he did not walk out on the match with BCL in CO2007 and he did not throw any tantrum. but i was a bit disappointed when i saw that he seems to have given up and did not play to the best of his ability. but being affected by injustice done to you is human. how you react shows your character. the best case scenario would have been ingoring the bad calls and the obvious bias of the umpire itself and still fight for every point and maybe changing strategy so that the opponent could not gain points by dubious line calls but really that is a tall order indeed. nobody is perfect. if anybody ask me to choose the best reaction to bad line calls, the above would receive my highest vote. followed by LCW's reaction in CO2007, then TH reaction of walking out. What LD did was really unacceptable to me. that is just my opinion. seize fire ok.

    and i fully agree that the line judging system should be fixed and fixed immediately before all this get out of hand for the sake of badminton.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...i thought i'm only a detective for the Agency of BadmintonCentral Detectives??..

    ..yes, i was giving some tips to Birdwood....And yes, this could be the calm before another "storm" (if there'll be a hearing & outcome with BWF for this 2008 KO incident)..
    it is an agency after all. there must be senior detectives and junior detectives. by the way, where do i sign up for training?

    hopefully no more storm. hopefully we could just discuss it in a calm manner. what am i saying? of course there will be a storm. maybe even tornado and a dash of volcanic eruption. hehehehehe

  12. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    just my opinion, the last call that the umpire did not overturned to LD advantage was not a blatant bad call as the ones that was overturned earlier. and trying to be a fair umpire (as he did wondefully when he overturned the previous obvious bad calls) he had no conviction that the call was bad. according tosome the shuttle lands quite close to the lines. but maybe LD having had four calls overturned in his favour was really convince that the call was bad yet again especially it was a crucial point for him and did not take into account that the umpire had been fair before and thus he should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point rather than throwing his racket around. now in a normal match, if the umpire upheld the call most players would not argue too much. but this being korea open and it's reputation of being biased to foreign players LD might have reacted strongly. no matter what, i still think his act of throwing the racket was wrong whether he was provoked or not.
    According to the comments of the majority of BCers, who saw the disputed call, the shuttlecock was out. Of course, ppl can always argue it's not convincing enough to be sure, and I am not surprised there were some ppl who thought it's in

    To your point that umpire had already corrected 4 bad calls and "been fair before", so LD "should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point", I don't buy it.

    (1) the last disputed call if it was bad, it should be corrected no matter how many bad line calls the umpire corrected earlier.
    (2) the call was bad to the majority BCers who saw it and it must be even more clear to LD.
    (3) the umpire might not be in a position to tell whether it's good or bad since it landed on the other side of the court or he was not totally convinced.
    (4) having faith in an umpire who did not see or could not tell the call was bad? I'm not sure that would have done LD any good at the time, it was the end of the match, not in the beginning or the middle part pf the match of MSF KO 08.

  13. #166
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Maybe...

    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    ...but maybe LD having had four calls overturned in his favour was really convince that the call was bad yet again especially it was a crucial point for him and did not take into account that the umpire had been fair before and...
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    ...To your point that umpire had already corrected 4 bad calls and "been fair before", so LD "should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point", I don't buy it.

    (1) the last disputed call if it was bad, it should be corrected no matter how many bad line calls the umpire corrected earlier.
    ....
    ...just maybe, LinDan expected the last bad line call to be over-ruled by the Umpire, just like he did for the earlier bad line calls..But when the Umpire upheld the call, LinDan couldn't believe it...

  14. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    ...since you are our BC librarian, detective, welcome committee, ... sorry I need more fingers for the hats you wear
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    I have to say he's a better debater than you do...
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...i thought i'm only a detective for the Agency of BadmintonCentral Detectives??..
    I did not finish the list last time because I was short of fingers. Let me see if I got enough of them this time for our ctjcad's BC job titles

    librarian
    detective
    welcome committee
    dispute mediator
    cheerleader
    spokesman
    credit rating (of other BCers)
    debate team
    auditor
    special investigator for complaints lodged against BC Admin
    ...

    Sorry, more fingers please

  15. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...just maybe, LinDan expected the last bad line call to be over-ruled by the Umpire, just like he did for the earlier bad line calls..But when the Umpire upheld the call, LinDan couldn't believe it...
    The important thing is the last disputed call was clearly bad, most of ppl could see that. Why the umpire did not correct the call? I just looked again at the video clip: the umpire didn't see where the shuttlecock landed because his view was blocked by LD. In that case, did he have the responsibility to tell LD that he could not see it instead of just pretending the call was good? or have LD and LHI replay the point at 21-21

    See for yourself: http://s.sohu.com/20080128/n254932425.shtml

  16. #169
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    Post mortem....
    Shuttle was IN as said by linesman. But later overrule by umpire.
    Shuttle was OUT as said by linesman. But later overrule by umpire.
    This happen 4 times.
    Let say if all linesman job was professionally carried out, the games may ends peacefully.

    So, the fire starter is the linesman.

    Conclusion:
    There are any opinion here and there. No right and wrong.
    If player mis-behave, they given yellow or red card.
    Why linesman never get a yellow or red card??? He should be barred from linesman job for some times!!!

  17. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    According to the comments of the majority of BCers, who saw the disputed call, the shuttlecock was out. Of course, ppl can always argue it's not convincing enough to be sure, and I am not surprised there were some ppl who thought it's in

    To your point that umpire had already corrected 4 bad calls and "been fair before", so LD "should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point", I don't buy it.
    i mean that LD should know that the umpire would have overturned the call if he had seen the shuttle go out himself. i saw the video, the shuttle was out. and other players have had to deal with bad line calls before and had to play on and concentrate on the next point. LD should have done the same. he should not have expected the umpire to change the call merely on his account that the shuttle was out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    (1) the last disputed call if it was bad, it should be corrected no matter how many bad line calls the umpire corrected earlier.
    yes, bad calls should be corrected no matter how many times it happens. i agree with that, but could you agree that the umpire could not have overturned a bad call that he could not see? he could not simply do it because LD said it was out. that would be unfair of him (to LHI) now wouldn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    (2) the call was bad to the majority BCers who saw it and it must be even more clear to LD.
    yes the call was bad. yes a lot of BCers can see it. and in fact even the umipre himself can see it after he saw a replay of it on tv later. but in that moment of time when he made his judgement, i would say he did the right thing. not saying the shuttle is in but the umpire did the best he could based on the rules of badminton. like football and many other sports, bad decisions by referee happens, but most of them are honest mistakes and not geared to be unfair to any party. LD could have just accepted that like many players from many types of sports that needed a referee when it comes to bad judgement and turn that into a positive thing by being more focused to win the next point. which i think he did. but alas he made two errors that cost him the match. can you blame the umpire in this case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    (3) the umpire might not be in a position to tell whether it's good or bad since it landed on the other side of the court or he was not totally convinced.
    i agree that that was probably what happened. based on the umpire's conduct previously, i believe he would have overturned the call if he had a strong conviction that it was out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    (4) having faith in an umpire who did not see or could not tell the call was bad? I'm not sure that would have done LD any good at the time, it was the end of the match, not in the beginning or the middle part pf the match of MSF KO 08.
    this is a sport with rules and referee. bad calls are bound to happen sometimes. sometimes it is intentional and other times it is an honest mistake. be it in the beginning or the middle or the end, bad calls will effect the players. how they react to it differs. some gave up, some fight back, some throw tantrum, some resort to fighting, some kept their focus and played to win. LD is not the first player to face the injustice of the judgings on the sports arena and he will not be the last. others have worked equally hard for their wins and equally disappointed by their loss. and others have been penalize for their bad conducts no matter whether they were provoked or not. why should LD be given a leeway? zidane was a champion too but when he headbutted materazzi he was penalized (even though that was his last match and it really did not harm his career, the fact that he was penalized shows that nobody in FIFA condoned what he did and to show that youngsters should not follow his example). and his reputation suffered too. and he apologized for his misconduct. that is being a big man. being a sportsman. nobody is asking LD or LM to be perfect. we are asking for them to own up to their misconduct and apologize.
    Last edited by azabaz_ipoh; 01-29-2008 at 11:57 PM.

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