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  1. #171
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    Since I'm not familiar with baddy rules, I don't understand some of the things you said.

    If the umpire in MSF KO 08 did not see the final disputed shot landed out:
    (1) he would not overrule the call (was called in)?
    (2) he did not even need to disclose that fact to anyone, including LD that he could not see it because LD was in between him and the shot?
    (3) he did not need to let them replay the shot?

    If all of the above were correct, MSF KO 08 linesmen could have made the bad call on purpose and many more of those calls since the umpire simply could not see and to overrule the bad line calls from the linesmen.

    Then what's point for playing if the bad calls can not be corrected? or at least for the point to be replayed? Just find a bunch of biased linesmen to fix the match

    If things like that, I would suggest Chn players do not go to KO SS in the future

  2. #172
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmm...what happened to the "middle-ground agreement"??..

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    The important thing is the last disputed call was clearly bad, most of ppl could see that. Why the umpire did not correct the call? I just looked again at the video clip: the umpire didn't see where the shuttlecock landed because his view was blocked by LD. In that case, did he have the responsibility to tell LD that he could not see it instead of just pretending the call was good? or have LD and LHI replay the point at 21-21

    See for yourself: http://s.sohu.com/20080128/n254932425.shtml
    ...okay, i never wanted to get involved, but here are my replies since you've asked (i hope this is not a way of Birdwood trying to test my "debating" skills)..hmm
    *Yes, i saw that video link:
    1. Yes, i concur, the last disputed line call was bad, as i saw that shot. However, i wouldn't call it "clearly bad" as it was a close call and only lucky viewers like us can see that from that vantage point.

    2. As to why the umpire didn't correct the call? Well, my answer is, why should he change or correct the call? In other words, he simply made the decision on what he saw. Whether his view was blocked by LinDan's legs or body, that i'm not certain. Of course, if the Umpire were to have a small monitor by his chair and watched where the shuttle landed, he probably would've over-ruled the call. Unfortunately, he didn't and he had to make a decision based on what he judged was correct, using his pair of eyes (just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls).

    3. Did he have the responsibility to tell LD that he couldn't see it instead of just pretending the call was good? Well, my opinion is he probably should. However, i don't think he pretended the call was good. Because no matter what type of reasons the Umpire would give to LD, he still would need to make a decision, whether it's "In" or "Out". And that is his main responsibility at that moment. Not so much to explain to LD that he couldn't see where the shuttle landed. If he couldn't see it, should the Umpire keep quiet and not give a call?? Thus he made the call, based on where he "believed" the shuttle landed (just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls).

    4. Call a "Let" and have LD or LHI replay the points? Hmm, sure. (I believe i suggested that idea in one of the threads in the 2008 KO sub-forum). But, it was just a suggestion, as i'm not too sure as to how the rules say/apply in this situation; and if they even exist.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-30-2008 at 01:28 AM.

  3. #173
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    check the rules then, i think the linesperson is there to support the umpire because he couldn't possibly see all landings of the shuttle. he is after all stationary in one spot. that is the whole purpose of the linespersons. to help him judge. he could overturned line calls are are obviously wrong if he himself witness the landing of the shuttle and this usual involves shuttle landing near him or shuttle that are not obstructed and obviously lands in or out. meaning not one or two inches but way way off the line. for those too close to call, he would have to rely on the linesperson. i still believe the umpire did a commendable job. the linesperson should have been replaced immediately once the fact that he/she was biased became obvious. but in that circumstances we cannot ask the umpire to give preferential treatment to LD by explaining to him and apologize to him and such. did he explain to LHI when he overuled the other bad calls? i think you should check out the rules birdwood. just so you could be sure that LD was not unfairly treated by the umpire. he did what was in his power and his responsibility.

  4. #174
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    [QUOTE=hollywood_t;781759]Actually now that I think about it, it should be the tournament/referre/IBF that takes full responsibility for changing the linespeople. It is unfair to ask the players to be responsible for ensuring a professional, fair environment for competition. That is the organzer's responsibility.

    "2.3. Line judges shall normally be appointed by the Referee, but a line judge can be replaced by
    the Referee or by the umpire in consultation with each other (Law 17.6.4)."


    The is nothing stopping the player requesting the Referee

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by yen_saw View Post
    I am glad people here responded to my instant replay suggestion. Badminton is a huge sport, it is an Olympic event for god sake, to have it spoiled by some bad linesman's call is unjustifying, frustrating for both players and audiences, a disgrace to this sport, and the source of all unwanted scenes like what had just happened. For american football, the reason instant replay was not recommended is due to the fact that it hinder the flow of the game, but they finally realized that it is required to maintane a fair game, and have it re-installed. Now i think instant reply in badminton don't really stop the flow of the game but to implement a fair system protecting both players from bias/faulty judgement. How long could it take to replay the shot? BWF can take a step up and even replace the linesman on the scene who makes the same mistake twice, placed the particular unfit/bais linesman in the (black)list. Hawkeye system cost more money than just instant replay, but to be honest, it doesn't cost THAT much to include one, or even several on the courts. BWF can definately afford it with all the advertisement money (where is the money really gone to?) But for now i think instant replay with multiple cameras from different angles should work. Even for a game in NBA there is instant replay to determine if the last second ball made the basket as time expire, why can't badminton?
    Just like at Olympics - Sydney 2000, had camera with instant replay

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    Btw, everybody, while we are busy debating here,
    Ah Boy-Sin have uploaded all the KO finals matches to torrents. Zamnabe is re-uploading MS FInals to Mediafire over at Baddy Vid D/load Thread.

    So,those who want to count how many bad line calls, when it happened & all the juicy details, the full vid are available.

  7. #177
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    My input will be being a professional player, he/she need to expects a bad call when you play the locals. As simple as that, keep cool and loose gracefully (still we are human and can fume!). Make a formal complain. There are many eyes out there watching and am sure the official will get a bashing.
    "Save the player, save the world". Whack the officials. hehe.

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...okay, i never wanted to get involved, but here are my replies since you've asked (i hope this is not a way of Birdwood trying to test my "debating" skills)..hmm
    *Yes, i saw that video link:
    ctjcad, you're losing your debating spirit over too many responsibilities at BC. I can see more teeth this time, but were they here because of the bait or you wore a different hat last night. "Never say never", maybe one day you'll be back with those sharp tongue of yours again, which were seen only not too long ago

    1. Yes, i concur, the last disputed line call was bad, as i saw that shot. However, i wouldn't call it "clearly bad" as it was a close call and only lucky viewers like us can see that from that vantage point.
    It's clear bad, even our neutral spokesperson could see it. LD and the lineswomen would be able to see it even clearer.

    2. As to why the umpire didn't correct the call? Well, my answer is, why should he change or correct the call? In other words, he simply made the decision on what he saw. Whether his view was blocked by LinDan's legs or body, that i'm not certain. Of course, if the Umpire were to have a small monitor by his chair and watched where the shuttle landed, he probably would've over-ruled the call. Unfortunately, he didn't and he had to make a decision based on what he judged was correct, using his pair of eyes (just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls).
    Where his judgment came from? He could not even see it. With LD moving fast, he wouldn't have been able to catch the shot.

    3. Did he have the responsibility to tell LD that he couldn't see it instead of just pretending the call was good? Well, my opinion is he probably should. However, i don't think he pretended the call was good. Because no matter what type of reasons the Umpire would give to LD, he still would need to make a decision, whether it's "In" or "Out". And that is his main responsibility at that moment. Not so much to explain to LD that he couldn't see where the shuttle landed. If he couldn't see it, should the Umpire keep quiet and not give a call?? Thus he made the call, based on where he "believed" the shuttle landed (just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls).
    When LD turned and walked to him, he turned his head to the other side and announced the score, as the call had been "good". If he had put more consideration to LD's plea or explained that he did not see the shot, the whole episode could have been avoided. I thought umpire's apathy also contributed to the LD's outrage. The umpire probably was thinking: I gave you enough breaks already. As for the previous bad calls, he corrected them because he actually could see where the shots landed. There were huge difference there, not just as ...

    4. Call a "Let" and have LD or LHI replay the points? Hmm, sure. (I believe i suggested that idea in one of the threads in the 2008 KO sub-forum). But, it was just a suggestion, as i'm not too sure as to how the rules say/apply in this situation; and if they even exist.
    This was another big mistake on the umpire part, who failed to realize the importance of the point to give a "Let" in such a crucial junction. LD won the next two points, a "Let" might have given LD the MS title in KO 08. LD himself did not think he loss the match and he should have been the champion (if you can read Chinese): http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=51850

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    ...
    how you react shows your character. the best case scenario would have been ingoring the bad calls and the obvious bias of the umpire itself and still fight for every point and maybe changing strategy so that the opponent could not gain points by dubious line calls but really that is a tall order indeed. nobody is perfect. if anybody ask me to choose the best reaction to bad line calls, the above would receive my highest vote. followed by LCW's reaction in CO2007, then TH reaction of walking out. What LD did was really unacceptable to me. that is just my opinion. seize fire ok.
    Everyone has different personality, not all as nice as you. Even if they're, the reactions might be different from what they would normally do. So no way I can be sure anyone wouldn't do something as LD did. LCW in MSF CO 07 did not have LYB bothering, jumping out the chair, and cursing him. Walking-out was not an option, since TH got purnished from walking out MSQF HO 06.

    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    i mean that LD should know that the umpire would have overturned the call if he had seen the shuttle go out himself. i saw the video, the shuttle was out. and other players have had to deal with bad line calls before and had to play on and concentrate on the next point. LD should have done the same. he should not have expected the umpire to change the call merely on his account that the shuttle was out.
    The bad line calls were exceptionally high in MSF KO 08, with some of which way off the line. All of them happened on the side of the court away from the umpire. One linesmen did two of those bad calls, which let me think the calls might have been done on purpose since umpire usually could not see the other side very well. Fortunately, the umpire saw one clearly, caught glimpse of the other two he corrected, but was not in a position to see the last one. Sure, the umpire should not change the call based just on LD's account, but the number and the pattern of biased calls did speak by themselves that something suspicious was going on, and warranted further investigation by the umpire, rather than simply dismissing LD's plea.

    yes, bad calls should be corrected no matter how many times it happens. i agree with that, but could you agree that the umpire could not have overturned a bad call that he could not see? he could not simply do it because LD said it was out. that would be unfair of him (to LHI) now wouldn't it?
    He could have given a "Let" for LD and LHI to replay the point. Why didn't he? It's a failure on the umpire's part.

    yes the call was bad. yes a lot of BCers can see it. and in fact even the umipre himself can see it after he saw a replay of it on tv later. but in that moment of time when he made his judgement, i would say he did the right thing. not saying the shuttle is in but the umpire did the best he could based on the rules of badminton. like football and many other sports, bad decisions by referee happens, but most of them are honest mistakes and not geared to be unfair to any party. LD could have just accepted that like many players from many types of sports that needed a referee when it comes to bad judgement and turn that into a positive thing by being more focused to win the next point. which i think he did. but alas he made two errors that cost him the match. can you blame the umpire in this case?
    It did not appear that way.

    this is a sport with rules and referee. bad calls are bound to happen sometimes. sometimes it is intentional and other times it is an honest mistake. be it in the beginning or the middle or the end, bad calls will effect the players. how they react to it differs. some gave up, some fight back, some throw tantrum, some resort to fighting, some kept their focus and played to win. LD is not the first player to face the injustice of the judgings on the sports arena and he will not be the last. others have worked equally hard for their wins and equally disappointed by their loss. and others have been penalize for their bad conducts no matter whether they were provoked or not. why should LD be given a leeway?...
    Under the circumstances, many other factors contributed to LD's behavior. The confrontation did not occur just by LD himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    check the rules then, i think the linesperson is there to support the umpire because he couldn't possibly see all landings of the shuttle. he is after all stationary in one spot. that is the whole purpose of the linespersons. to help him judge. he could overturned line calls are are obviously wrong if he himself witness the landing of the shuttle and this usual involves shuttle landing near him or shuttle that are not obstructed and obviously lands in or out. meaning not one or two inches but way way off the line. for those too close to call, he would have to rely on the linesperson. i still believe the umpire did a commendable job. the linesperson should have been replaced immediately once the fact that he/she was biased became obvious. but in that circumstances we cannot ask the umpire to give preferential treatment to LD by explaining to him and apologize to him and such. did he explain to LHI when he overuled the other bad calls? i think you should check out the rules birdwood. just so you could be sure that LD was not unfairly treated by the umpire. he did what was in his power and his responsibility.
    The linesmen did not follow the rules, the umpire did not enforce the rules, LM broke the rules, and why players should be expected to follow the rules? If the rules of the game changes, then the game changes. We had a punch of biased linesmen fixing the match if not for country's pride. Court and field officials, referees, judges, umpires, etc. involved in gambling have happened in sports before and could happen anywhere.

    We were not talking about preferential treatment to LD. Recognizing the facts that LD was badly mis-treated in MSF KO 08 by other parties and injustice was done to him too. Why the umpire needed to explain to LHI since LHI did not suffer the same biased calls.

    I don't think the umpire did everything in his power and his responsibility. There were many things mentioned before that he could have done, such as replacing the linesmen, considering LD's plea more carefully and explaining to him or giving a "Let" to the point.

    After said all of the above, I would say that what LD did in MSF KO 08 was wrong and unacceptable to baddy as a sports. Appropriate actions should be taken against him. But taking into consideration of other contributing factors, I would also fix the blames on other parties as well, including the linesmen, LM, and the umpire. Short of that, justice will not be served.

    btw, LM did not see where the shuttlecock landed on the last bad call, but that did not prevent him from jumping out off his chair, moving, shouting, and interfering. If anyone wants to see what and why he did, you can read at: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=51838
    Last edited by Birdwood; 01-30-2008 at 05:39 PM.

  10. #180
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    LOL, All the hot discussions are over at KO 2008 threads.

    There's a new vid out showing the force of LD's throw.
    And apparently Sina.com has got an interview with the umpire & sone has translated. And Kwun has started a poll.
    Let's see what punishment LD & LM get.
    For player, anything less than Taufik's punishment- loss of WR pts, loss of prize $$ for that tourney, fine, Suspension of 1 SS.... will have protest from Taufik et al.

  11. #181
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Shifting focus on the Umpire.....away from the real incident..

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    ctjcad, you're losing your debating spirit over too many responsibilities at BC. I can see more teeth this time, but were they here because of the bait or you wore a different hat last night. "Never say never", maybe one day you'll be back with those sharp tongue of yours again, which were seen only not too long ago
    ...hehe, it's okay. I wasn't "baited or wearing a different hat last night" when i replied to your post. Just being courteous so i won't leave you hanging/ignore you. Plus it's just a reply, giving my opinion, not trying to debate w/you. Nothing more nothing less.
    Well, in the past, I used to just "waste" time in BC debating/discussing on many issues, but i've slowly learned to pick and choose which issue(s) to discuss/debate etc.
    "Sharp tongue of mine seen not too long ago??..When was that??
    It's clear bad, even our neutral spokesperson could see it. LD and the lineswomen would be able to see it even clearer.
    ..fair enough. Btw, pardon me for asking, who's "our neutral spokesperson"??
    Where his judgment came from? He could not even see it. With LD moving fast, he wouldn't have been able to catch the shot.
    As i wrote in my the previous page, his judgment in the last bad line call came from what he believed where the shuttle landed (regardless whether his sight was bothered by LD's legs/body or not).
    It's true the Umpire most likely couldn't see it. But the point still remains, he still needed to make a decision. Put it also this way, say, if you were the Umpire in that position, you saw the shot landed, it looked "In" eventhough LD screamed and went frantic (almost like he did in the previous over-ruled calls), what decision would you make, at that moment? Would you be swayed by LD's reaction and over-ruled the call? Or would you stand by what you believed & judged where the shuttle landed (IMO, just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls)?
    When LD turned and walked to him, he turned his head to the other side and announced the score, as the call had been "good". If he had put more consideration to LD's plea or explained that he did not see the shot, the whole episode could have been avoided. I thought umpire's apathy also contributed to the LD's outrage. The umpire probably was thinking: I gave you enough breaks already. As for the previous bad calls, he corrected them because he actually could see where the shots landed. There were huge difference there, not just as ...
    ..i thought, in the video, the Umpire confirmed the score to LinDan, first, and then turned his head to the other side to confirm the score also. So, how would the idea of putting more consideration to LD or explaining that the Umpire did not see the shot could have prevented the whole episode in happening?? Well, what kind of explanation or consideration do you think will satisfy LinDan, eventhough the decision was "In"??
    About the part i've highlighted in bold, how sure are you/we in knowing that he **actually could see** where the shots landed in the previous over-ruled calls??..He might've simply made ALL 5 decisions based on what he believed & judged where the shuttle landed.
    This was another big mistake on the umpire part, who failed to realize the importance of the point to give a "Let" in such a crucial junction. LD won the next two points, a "Let" might have given LD the MS title in KO 08. LD himself did not think he loss the match and he should have been the champion (if you can read Chinese): http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=51850
    ..possible, and i wouldn't deny that. We just don't know IF the Umpire ever thought about calling a "Let" and re-playing the point, in that situation. I, for sure, if put in his spot, most likely would act the same as he did.

    Anyway, it's understandable that if issues like these pop up, we can get both sides of arguments. And we can go on and on and on and discuss about this issue, whether the Umpire should've over-ruled the last call even if he wasn't sure or he should explain to LD why he made the decision etc.. At the end of the day, IMO, the Umpire did the best he could. And i'm sure, if myself, yourself or others were in his spot, no matter how experienced or professional we can be, i doubt any of us could've done any better.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-30-2008 at 08:07 PM.

  12. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    LOL, All the hot discussions are over at KO 2008 threads.

    There's a new vid out showing the force of LD's throw.
    And apparently Sina.com has got an interview with the umpire & sone has translated. And Kwun has started a poll.
    Let's see what punishment LD & LM get.
    For player, anything less than Taufik's punishment- loss of WR pts, loss of prize $$ for that tourney, fine, Suspension of 1 SS.... will have protest from Taufik et al.
    TH did not t get all the above you mentioned. He did not get the points and prize money, that's it. Find press conference on YouTube in thread: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=38469

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    Quote Originally Posted by V3i HoN6 View Post
    That's not fair.
    I would give 2 points back to call it fair.
    Or insists the umpire overrule it.
    I dont see any reason why the umpire wont if both players protesting for it.
    2 points man.
    That's why line call is so important to a game.
    1 wrong call actually costs you 2 points.
    Not true. The other opponent would simply lose, meaning that you went back to where you were before the disputed call. If it was clearly out, and I was the opponent, then I would request the score be reverted correctly, but otherwise, just lose one to neutralize the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    I aint suprised at what you had witnessed. She is a human afterall, and loving and supporting his country is nothing to be ashamed of.
    Well, if she's biased, and loving of her country, she should do so on the sidelines, not in a position where she might interfere with the results of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    Everyone has different personality, not all as nice as you. Even if they're, the reactions might be different from what they would normally do. So no way I can be sure anyone wouldn't do something as LD did. LCW in MSF CO 07 did not have LYB bothering, jumping out the chair, and cursing him. Walking-out was not an option, since TH got purnished from walking out MSQF HO 06.
    you make choices of what your actions will be. you can choose to give up but play on and finish the match, you can choose to walk away and get fined and suspended from matches. you can throw racket at people and act aggresively. yes different people react differently. i think LCW had faced a shouting LYB before but i dont remember reading that he threw a racket or start a fight with LYB. i think the nature of the player dictates how they react. i think LCW might not react too violently (he is more a if-cannot-win-might-as-well-give-up kind of a person). TH might (based on his actions in sea games). LD certainly could as proven in the korea open. there is always an option. in the end we are the who decide how we would conduct ourselves. nobody else but ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    Under the circumstances, many other factors contributed to LD's behavior. The confrontation did not occur just by LD himself.
    if we can make a comparison with the zidane and materazzi world cup fiasco, there are other factors that contributed to his headbutting incident. if you have not read about it, apprently materazzi said something about zidane's mother and sister. now, in any other place, anybody would react like zidane. headbutting might be the least of it. people could get killed saying things like that. no confrontation occur by itself and involves only one party. there must be things that happens that leads to it. now, zidane was given the red card. the french team lost playing with 10 men. how is it that much different from LD's actions? violence is violence. and how could anybody suggest that he should not be punished for what he did?

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    The linesmen did not follow the rules, the umpire did not enforce the rules, LM broke the rules, and why players should be expected to follow the rules? If the rules of the game changes, then the game changes. We had a punch of biased linesmen fixing the match if not for country's pride. Court and field officials, referees, judges, umpires, etc. involved in gambling have happened in sports before and could happen anywhere.
    just because other people do wrong should we follow suit? two wrongs does not make a right as apparent with the incident in korea open. it only takes one party to calm down and back off and the whole thing would have died down. but because words were shouted, gestures were aggresive, actions were violent, it escalated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    After said all of the above, I would say that what LD did in MSF KO 08 was wrong and unacceptable to baddy as a sports. Appropriate actions should be taken against him. But taking into consideration of other contributing factors, I would also fix the blames on other parties as well, including the linesmen, LM, and the umpire. Short of that, justice will not be served.
    i agree. actions should be taken with all party involved. i suggested in the "penalty for LD" thread that LD should be fined and suspended, LM should be fined and suspended from attending his charges matches and korea open organizer be fined and korean open suspended for one year. that should be fair to all party and hopefully a deterrent for any other players, coaches or tournament organizers to repeat this incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    btw, LM did not see where the shuttlecock landed on the last bad call, but that did not prevent him from jumping out off his chair, moving, shouting, and interfering. If anyone wants to see what and why he did, you can read at: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=51838
    he was responding to the fact that too many calls was against his player (does not mean the umpire and the overturned calls he made were wrong, he might just be concerned of his player's mental condition at that point and wanted to support him) . this, however, does not mean that what LM did was right. his subsequent actions escalated the whole fiasco. but that would be what any coach would do regardless of what transpire. like in football, even if you see your player's handball and the referee wants to give a penalty, you would still argue on your player's side. coaches all over the world do it. no different here i think.
    Last edited by azabaz_ipoh; 01-30-2008 at 11:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...hehe, it's okay. I wasn't "baited or wearing a different hat last night" when i replied to your post. Just being courteous so i won't leave you hanging/ignore you. Plus it's just a reply, giving my opinion, not trying to debate w/you. Nothing more nothing less.
    Well, in the past, I used to just "waste" time in BC debating/discussing on many issues, but i've slowly learned to pick and choose which issue(s) to discuss/debate etc.
    "Sharp tongue of mine seen not too long ago??..When was that??

    ..fair enough. Btw, pardon me for asking, who's "our neutral spokesperson"??
    I was joking. Thanks for the reply. Leen is the one.

    As i wrote in my the previous page, his judgment in the last bad line call came from what he believed where the shuttle landed (regardless whether his sight was bothered by LD's legs/body or not).
    It's true the Umpire most likely couldn't see it. But the point still remains, he still needed to make a decision. Put it also this way, say, if you were the Umpire in that position, you saw the shot landed, it looked "In" eventhough LD screamed and went frantic (almost like he did in the previous over-ruled calls), what decision would you make, at that moment? Would you be swayed by LD's reaction and over-ruled the call? Or would you stand by what you believed & judged where the shuttle landed (IMO, just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls)?
    Our difference is at the word of "believed". How could he "believed" where the shuttle landed if he couldn't see? and How could it "looked" "In" without seeing it? In the previous overruled bad calls, he clearly saw where shuttlecocks landed (look at the video yourself to see the reaction of the umpire to the bad calls and his viewing area. Therefore, I was trying to point to you that there were major differences between the ones he corrected and the last one he let it stand.

    ..i thought, in the video, the Umpire confirmed the score to LinDan, first, and then turned his head to the other side to confirm the score also. So, how would the idea of putting more consideration to LD or explaining that the Umpire did not see the shot could have prevented the whole episode in happening?? Well, what kind of explanation or consideration do you think will satisfy LinDan, eventhough the decision was "In"??
    About the part i've highlighted in bold, how sure are you/we in knowing that he **actually could see** where the shots landed in the previous over-ruled calls??..He might've simply made ALL 5 decisions based on what he believed & judged where the shuttle landed.
    What "confirmed the score to LinDan, first" meant? He looked at LD with an expression on his face that he believed the call was good. But if he had really seen the shot, he would know the shot was bad. That's why LD thought the umpire was not being honest and helpful. If he simply explain to LD that he could not see the last shot, but it's called in by relying on others, and there was no alternative to his decision (provided a "Let" was not an option), I'm positive LD would have understood the situation and gone back to play. Everyone has those tight spot and gets jammed, asking for help and understanding. I'm sure most ppl would respond positively. I don't think LD cared that much about winning or losing, he was very angry at the mis-treatment and injustice he got in MSF KO 08.

    ..possible, and i wouldn't deny that. We just don't know IF the Umpire ever thought about calling a "Let" and re-playing the point, in that situation. I, for sure, if put in his spot, most likely would act the same as he did.

    Anyway, it's understandable that if issues like these pop up, we can get both sides of arguments. And we can go on and on and on and discuss about this issue, whether the Umpire should've over-ruled the last call even if he wasn't sure or he should explain to LD why he made the decision etc.. At the end of the day, IMO, the Umpire did the best he could. And i'm sure, if myself, yourself or others were in his spot, no matter how experienced or professional we can be, i doubt any of us could've done any better.
    I would act it differently by talking to LD to see what kind solution would be possible since there had been a pattern of those biased calls. You're in US, you know how a pattern of something is one of the most effective arguments.

    There is a Chinese text of the phone interview between the umpire and a reporter, if you understand Chinese: http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/...12-516590.html.

    The title reads "...The umpire acknowledged the wrong call made LD being raged".

    The umpire stated that he could not see the shot in or out because it landed behind LD's back, so he looked at linesmen/lineswomen, who indicated firmly the shot had been in, and he looked at the TV referee, who also gave him the same answer, so he insisted the shot was good, but when he looked later on video, the shot was out and the call was a mistake.

    The umpire said LD walked over to tell him the shot had gone out. Because LD and LM was at a very close range and LM said something to LD, then LD became very angry and the two started arguing.

    The umpire said he could understand LD and due to the intense competition, players were very tense and temper flared out of control was understandable. If someone else in LD's shoes, he might be even more angry than LD.

    The umpire said he noticed some bad line calls which obviously should not have happened, which made him to correct them constantly and made him angry.
    Last edited by Birdwood; 01-31-2008 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Let's not put the Umpire in a hot seat..

    ..*sigh*..okay, i had a feeling it will come to this, early on. But anyway, i'll reply & entertain you one more time on your case about the Umpire's position...Hopefully, others will come in and discuss/debate/banter/entertain w/you on this issue..

    As for me, and as i said before, the Umpire in the 2008 KO MSF did his best and i, for one, can't ask for anything more than what he had done. What we're doing/discussing now are just hindsights/"what ifs" he did this & that etc. To what purpose? Isn't it better to look fw and hope for a better one in the future? To an extent, i would give a bit of credit to the KO Open Organizer for allowing neutral Umpires in all of the Finals matches; imagine if they didn't..
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdwood View Post
    ...
    Our difference is at the word of "believed". How could he "believed" where the shuttle landed if he couldn't see? and How could it "looked" "In" without seeing it? In the previous overruled bad calls, he clearly saw where shuttlecocks landed (look at the video yourself to see the reaction of the umpire to the bad calls and his viewing area. Therefore, I was trying to point to you that there were major differences between the ones he corrected and the last one he let it stand.
    ..okay, fair enough..But as i asked/wrote in my previous post, even if he didn't see/wasn't sure about where the shuttle landed for the last bad line call, tell me how was he going to call it? Do you expect him to change the call? Explaining to LinDan about why he made the decision, at that moment, etc (like you suggested), IMO, would be fruitless, even if he upheld his "In" call.
    In the report, he clearly made the decision based on the line-judge's and tv referee's views who had "better" views of where the shuttle landed. He made the decision, UNINTENTIONALLY, but later he realized it was a wrong one. So, now, can we all live with it?
    ...If he simply explain to LD that he could not see the last shot, but it's called in by relying on others, and there was no alternative to his decision (provided a "Let" was not an option), I'm positive LD would have understood the situation and gone back to play....I don't think LD cared that much about winning or losing, he was very angry at the mis-treatment and injustice he got in MSF KO 08.
    ..hmm, I believe prior to LinDan going berserk, he had already accepted & understood the decision by the Umpire. In other words, LD didn't get mad at the Umpire. LD's outburst was indirectly related to what he saw/imagined what LiMao was saying/doing (harmless or not). I'm sure you've read the Umpire's account that LiMao muttered something first, before LinDan threw his racket; maybe even made some gestures which made LinDan upset. The Umpire is not at fault, at least UNINTENTIONALLY.
    I would act it differently by talking to LD to see what kind solution would be possible since there had been a pattern of those biased calls. You're in US, you know how a pattern of something is one of the most effective arguments.

    There is a Chinese text of the phone interview between the umpire and a reporter, if you understand Chinese: http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/...12-516590.html.

    The title reads "...The umpire acknowledged the wrong call made LD being raged"...

    ...
    ..yes, i've read that article/translation in the locked thread.
    Last comment in our small discussion, before i stop replying:
    Considering all the things that have happened in the MSF match, esp. all the over-ruled bad calls, who do you think was the only who's probably "awake" and "aware" of what's going on throughout the entire match? Other than the last wronged call, do you think the Umpire was fair and square in what he did? If so, then let's not put the Umpire on the hot seat as he did his best and i, for one, can't ask for anything more than what he had done.

    *If you want to discuss more about this, PM me. We can discuss it through there. I'm sure you know where to find me.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 01-31-2008 at 01:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..*sigh*..okay, i had a feeling it will come to this, early on. But anyway, i'll reply & entertain you one more time on your case about the Umpire's position...Hopefully, others will come in and discuss/debate/banter/entertain w/you on this issue..

    As for me, and as i said before, the Umpire in the 2008 KO MSF did his best and i, for one, can't ask for anything more than what he had done. To an extent, i would give a bit of credit to the KO Open Organizer for allowing neutral Umpires in all of the Finals matches; imagine if they didn't..

    ..okay, fair enough..But as i asked/wrote in my previous post, even if he didn't see/wasn't sure about where the shuttle landed for the last bad line call, tell me how is he going to call it? In the report, he clearly made the decision based on the line-judge's and tv referee's views who had "better" view of where the shuttle landed. He made the decision, UNINTENTIONALLY, but later he realized it was a wrong one. So, now, can we all live with it?

    ..hmm, I believe prior to LinDan going berserk, he had already accepted the decision by the Umpire. In other words, LD didn't get mad at the Umpire. LD's outburst was indirectly related to what he saw/imagined what LiMao was saying/doing (harmless or not). I'm sure you've read the Umpire's account that LiMao muttered something first, before LinDan threw his racket; maybe even made some gestures which made LinDan upset. The Umpire is not at fault, at least UNINTENTIONALLY.

    ..yes, i've read that article/translation in the locked thread.
    Last comment in our small discussion, before i go:
    Considering all the things that have happened in the MSF match, esp. all the over-ruled bad calls, who do you think was the only who's probably "awake" and "aware" of what's going on throughout the entire match? Other than the last wronged call, do you think the Umpire was fair and square in what he did? If so, then let's not put the Umpire on the hot seat as he did his best and i, for one, can't ask for anything more than what he had done.

    *If you want to discuss more about this, PM me. We can discuss it there. I'm sure you know where to find me.
    Sorry I don't know where to find you since detectives usually are very elusive. But I don't see any difference between us to PM you beyond here. You ask me if the umpire did a good job? My answer is yea and I would give him a A plus. Could he do even better or somethings differently, I'm sure he could. There never be anything could not be improved and nothing was, is, and will be perfect.

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