The impact of bad linecalls on MSF players in KO 08 and CO 07

[ctjcad]

(thank you for your answer and last sentence of your post. I think we can all agree on that).
..PM me if you'd still like to discuss about this. The Agency of BadmintonCentral Detectives will be here & listening. If not, then the ABCD considers this case as : closed.

[azabaz_ipoh]

i was wondering, we read a lot of reports from chinese newspapers and reporters and also malaysian reporters and reuters. what does other countries journalists saying about this incident? what are the korean newspapers and reporters saying. interesting to know if they did not report anything on this matter and more so if they neglect to point out their countrymen's bad line calls not just in the finals but throughout the tournaments. anybody read any reports from korea?

[eaglehelang]

TH did not t get all the above you mentioned. He did not get the points and prize money, that's it. Find press conference on YouTube in thread: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=38469

Ah ha, you finally left the comfort of your tree & flew there. Yes, I already read the threads there. The suspension and fine part was mentioned by Huang & a few other BCers. As you know, Huang knows the Indonesia team well, he doesnt simply say stuff.

In the KO threads, I asked where they got the info from, or was that punishment for another tournament, they were too heated up in the debates to answer.
I'm still 'flying' about, trying to find that part but..... it was too long ago.

Nvm, we shall see what decision BWF makes from this.

Definitely, future newbies, KO 08, CO 07 threads very interesting read.

[eaglehelang]

what are the korean newspapers and reporters saying. interesting to know if they did not report anything on this matter and more so if they neglect to point out their countrymen's bad line calls not just in the finals but throughout the tournaments. anybody read any reports from korea?

In the 1st place, I dont think there's any BCer who can speak or read Korean, so nobody post the news.

[Birdwood]

Ah ha, you finally left the comfort of your tree & flew there. Yes, I already read the threads there. The suspension and fine part was mentioned by Huang & a few other BCers. As you know, Huang knows the Indonesia team well, he doesnt simply say stuff.

In the KO threads, I asked where they got the info from, or was that punishment for another tournament, they were too heated up in the debates to answer.
I'm still 'flying' about, trying to find that part but..... it was too long ago.

Nvm, we shall see what decision BWF makes from this.

Definitely, future newbies, KO 08, CO 07 threads very interesting read.

I saw the video before, did not need to go and find it this time. But in the thread cooler wrote: "Nope. I guess it was an agreed settlement on a condition of non-disclosure of the case. It's hard to prove a case base on who said what between 2 people." I don't know what he meant by "non-disclosure"? Was anything more than what was given out in the conference? From the video, it did not appear that way.

[eaglehelang]

I saw the video before, did not need to go and find it this time. But in the thread cooler wrote: "Nope. I guess it was an agreed settlement on a condition of non-disclosure of the case. It's hard to prove a case base on who said what between 2 people." I don't know what he meant by "non-disclosure"? Was anything more than what was given out in the conference? From the video, it did not appear that way.

If you watch the video, the spokesman said "The evidence was not complete." About what cooler said, that's easy, he's still roaming the forum, ask him if he remembers.

[Smichz]

i hope systems like hawk-eye will be ready to be impelemented by that time..since spectators n fans will become more n more sensitive about line judging.Even one or two misscalls will cause spectators to think that the team win the game by fault.We don't wish that to happend..n somehow the judging teams r haven't fulfill our demands n hope yet.So,the best to prevent that kind of accidents happend,we need lenses!

[Birdwood]

you make choices of what your actions will be. you can choose to give up but play on and finish the match, you can choose to walk away and get fined and suspended from matches. you can throw racket at people and act aggresively. yes different people react differently. i think LCW had faced a shouting LYB before but i dont remember reading that he threw a racket or start a fight with LYB. i think the nature of the player dictates how they react. i think LCW might not react too violently (he is more a if-cannot-win-might-as-well-give-up kind of a person). TH might (based on his actions in sea games). LD certainly could as proven in the korea open. there is always an option. in the end we are the who decide how we would conduct ourselves. nobody else but ourselves.

I agree that everyone makes own choices and faces consequences. Otherwise, we'll all be Saint by now. The comparison of LCW facing shouting of LYB if true still would be different from LD's case in MSF KO 08.

if we can make a comparison with the zidane and materazzi world cup fiasco, there are other factors that contributed to his headbutting incident. if you have not read about it, apprently materazzi said something about zidane's mother and sister. now, in any other place, anybody would react like zidane. headbutting might be the least of it. people could get killed saying things like that. no confrontation occur by itself and involves only one party. there must be things that happens that leads to it. now, zidane was given the red card. the french team lost playing with 10 men. how is it that much different from LD's actions? violence is violence. and how could anybody suggest that he should not be punished for what he did?

That's a football star if I remember the incident correctly. Again it showed player reacted differently to things. But we would never know what zidane or even LCW in LD's shoes would have done. We only can say the probability for them to do something like what LD did would be very low.

just because other people do wrong should we follow suit? two wrongs does not make a right as apparent with the incident in korea open. it only takes one party to calm down and back off and the whole thing would have died down. but because words were shouted, gestures were aggresive, actions were violent, it escalated.

Many ppl would agree with you on this, but right and wrong are relative speaking. If one person hits another, it's wrong; but the second person may hit back, that may not be wrong because it can be called "self-defense". So depending on the circumstances, things may be interpreted differently in a case by case basis. Not everything is clear cut with a cookie cutter.

i agree. actions should be taken with all party involved. i suggested in the "penalty for LD" thread that LD should be fined and suspended, LM should be fined and suspended from attending his charges matches and korea open organizer be fined and korean open suspended for one year. that should be fair to all party and hopefully a deterrent for any other players, coaches or tournament organizers to repeat this incident.

I wish this really became a wake-up call for everyone to examine their conducts and their souls, including the fans, like us in the forum (BCers couldn't threw rackets at each other, so sometimes they throw bad words and insults, and tempers do flare quite often).

he was responding to the fact that too many calls was against his player (does not mean the umpire and the overturned calls he made were wrong, he might just be concerned of his player's mental condition at that point and wanted to support him) . this, however, does not mean that what LM did was right. his subsequent actions escalated the whole fiasco. but that would be what any coach would do regardless of what transpire. like in football, even if you see your player's handball and the referee wants to give a penalty, you would still argue on your player's side. coaches all over the world do it. no different here i think.

I had no problems with coaches supporting their respective players. But if LM just told LHI quietly what he thought on LHI's side of the court, things would have been fine. He was interfering with the discussion between LD and the umpire. What business he had to tell what the umpire should do? What business LM had with shouting at LD and telling him what to do? LD is not a player of KO team, if LM really wanted LD to do something, he should ask ZB first. I though what LM did was a dirty trick to get to LD's temper and to affect LD's play.

Again your analogy of coaches in other sports, like football, is not a good one. What LD did would be a peanut and none event comparing to many other sports. Hockey players fight with heavy sticks, LD only threw a light racket. So coaches in different sports may do things differently from the sports of baddy.

I would suggest playing like the old day. Keeping out the coaches from the courts and ear-shout of players. Don't even let them talk to players during breaks. Let players play, pure and simple and see how well they have been trained in advance.

[chris-ccc]

The comparison of LCW facing shouting of LYB if true still would be different from LD's case in MSF KO 08.

I had no problems with coaches supporting their respective players. But if LM just told LHI quietly what he thought on LHI's side of the court, things would have been fine. He was interfering with the discussion between LD and the umpire. What business he had to tell what the umpire should do? What business LM had with shouting at LD and telling him what to do?

I would suggest playing like the old day. Keeping out the coaches from the courts and ear-shout of players. Don't even let them talk to players during breaks. Let players play, pure and simple and see how well they have been trained in advance.

.
Something important has been brought out (in the quote above).

IMHO......

During play, a player can talk to the umpire. I stress that for complains of any kind, the player should only direct them to the umpire, not to the lines judges, not to the service judges, not to the opponent, and not to the coach. The umpire controls the play.

During play, a coach can talk to the referee. I stress that for complains of any kind, the coach should only direct them to the referee, not to the umpire, not to the service judges, not to lines judges, not to the opponent or trainee. The referee controls the tournament.

It is during the interval/break when coaches and trainees can talk to one another.
.

[azabaz_ipoh]

I agree that everyone makes own choices and faces consequences. Otherwise, we'll all be Saint by now. The comparison of LCW facing shouting of LYB if true still would be different from LD's case in MSF KO 08.

how is it different? please explain. both involves coaches shouting at the player not under his charge. how is it different? because LD nearly won and LCW did not? nothing should excuse bad behaviour.

That's a football star if I remember the incident correctly. Again it showed player reacted differently to things. But we would never know what zidane or even LCW in LD's shoes would have done. We only can say the probability for them to do something like what LD did would be very low.

i think the probability is very high. sport are emotional. tensions run high. but if you succumb to that pressure and acted badly, you have to apologize and received you punishment. no matter what sport, what situation or who.

Many ppl would agree with you on this, but right and wrong are relative speaking. If one person hits another, it's wrong; but the second person may hit back, that may not be wrong because it can be called "self-defense". So depending on the circumstances, things may be interpreted differently in a case by case basis. Not everything is clear cut with a cookie cutter.

i think some wrong are clear cut. throwing a racket away from yourself aiming at a place where there are people without those people harming you with bodily harm in the first place, whether you hit them or not, is wrong. do you say otherwise? a child in anger hits his brother for teasing him, would you not tell him that hitting is wrong? would you encourage the act of hitting? self defense is when you retaliate to what was done to you. people hit you, you hit back. but if people are shouting to you, why not just shout back. why try to hit with racket? or throw it in their direction?

I wish this really became a wake-up call for everyone to examine their conducts and their souls, including the fans, like us in the forum (BCers couldn't threw rackets at each other, so sometimes they throw bad words and insults, and tempers do flare quite often).

yes, i do read a lot of posts that are very biased, whether for or against LD. a person you like is not free from making mistakes and a person you hate is not the worst human being in the world. dont judge LD for anything other than his one act of violence on that fateful day. i do hope the discussions will not go out of hand and thankfully the moderators are here just for that purpose. thank you moderators.

I had no problems with coaches supporting their respective players. But if LM just told LHI quietly what he thought on LHI's side of the court, things would have been fine. He was interfering with the discussion between LD and the umpire. What business he had to tell what the umpire should do? What business LM had with shouting at LD and telling him what to do? LD is not a player of KO team, if LM really wanted LD to do something, he should ask ZB first. I though what LM did was a dirty trick to get to LD's temper and to affect LD's play.

agree. in this matter i do say LM is also at fault. mindgames are not new though and happens all the time. many players have been affected before.

Again your analogy of coaches in other sports, like football, is not a good one. What LD did would be a peanut and none event comparing to many other sports. Hockey players fight with heavy sticks, LD only threw a light racket. So coaches in different sports may do things differently from the sports of baddy.

are you saying you condone violence in sports? or do you excuse some violence in some sports? i dont. violence in violence. be it punching, or hitting, or shoving violently, or throwing objects at other people. no violence is peanut. not to the the intended person. yeah, coaches acted differently but do we really want badminton to go the way of ice hockey where it is sometimes free for all? we expect something more from the people our children is imitating.

I would suggest playing like the old day. Keeping out the coaches from the courts and ear-shout of players. Don't even let them talk to players during breaks. Let players play, pure and simple and see how well they have been trained in advance.

agree with you here. but at the very least there should be some time for the coaches and players to interact during breaks for that's what a coach should do. help the player read the game and come up with a better strategy if needed. if the player can do it all by himself, he does not need a coach in the first place.

[eaglehelang]

I saw the video before, did not need to go and find it this time. .

Update on Taufik's sanctions/punishment for HK 2006 -
Huang tried to find out, as far as he remember, no suspension for Taufik in the end, it was mentioned in news report bf Displinary Board's final decision. Taufik didnt go for one tourney, so ppl assumed Taufik got suspended.

Fine - As far as Huang recalls, PBSI or Taufik paid fine, dunno how much or when, since Displinary Board's decision was 23 Sept, match was 31 Aug.

Anyway, the official announcement is Taufik didnt get 2,970 ranking pts & USD$2,500 from HK 2006.

http://internationalbadminton.org/ne...r=2006&month=9

http://internationalbadminton.org/ne...r=2006&month=9

[Birdwood]

how is it different? please explain. both involves coaches shouting at the player not under his charge. how is it different? because LD nearly won and LCW did not? nothing should excuse bad behaviour.

I did not know which incident you brought up in the first place regarding "i think LCW had faced a shouting LYB before but i dont remember reading that he threw a racket or start a fight with LYB." So I said "LCW facing shouting of LYB if true" it would be different ...If this is something you care to debate with me about, please find the reference and the facts and bring them here, I promise that I will find you the differences.

i think the probability is very high. sport are emotional. tensions run high. but if you succumb to that pressure and acted badly, you have to apologize and received you punishment. no matter what sport, what situation or who.

You had given me an example of "zidane and materazzi world cup fiasco". Since I don't really follow and know much about soccer, I will leave you with my last comments. And I'm not interested in debating about other sports, which I don't even play.

i think some wrong are clear cut. throwing a racket away from yourself aiming at a place where there are people without those people harming you with bodily harm in the first place, whether you hit them or not, is wrong. do you say otherwise? a child in anger hits his brother for teasing him, would you not tell him that hitting is wrong? would you encourage the act of hitting? self defense is when you retaliate to what was done to you. people hit you, you hit back. but if people are shouting to you, why not just shout back. why try to hit with racket? or throw it in their direction?

Again the debate is getting out of the subject of baddy and MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07. I'm neither in a position nor interested in commenting on all these different and complicate scenarios.

are you saying you condone violence in sports? or do you excuse some violence in some sports? i dont. violence in violence. be it punching, or hitting, or shoving violently, or throwing objects at other people. no violence is peanut. not to the the intended person. yeah, coaches acted differently but do we really want badminton to go the way of ice hockey where it is sometimes free for all? we expect something more from the people our children is imitating.

Please try not put words in my mouth. What I said was I meant. BCers can read themselves. I made the comments in response to your comments, which was a response to my comments. Now you want to debate me on my latest comments. This will never end, even if we spend the rest of our lives on this debate, which has already gone beyond the initial intent. We will have to agree to disagree on some of the fundamental issues barely touched upon in our exchanges.

[Birdwood]

.
Something important has been brought out (in the quote above).

IMHO......

During play, a player can talk to the umpire. I stress that for complains of any kind, the player should only direct them to the umpire, not to the lines judges, not to the service judges, not to the opponent, and not to the coach. The umpire controls the play.

During play, a coach can talk to the referee. I stress that for complains of any kind, the coach should only direct them to the referee, not to the umpire, not to the service judges, not to lines judges, not to the opponent or trainee. The referee controls the tournament.

It is during the interval/break when coaches and trainees can talk to one another.
.

Hi, chris@ccc, haven't seen you much in any heated exchanges or hotly contested threads. I assumed you had wonderful time with your baddy games and tried to avoid controversy. Thanks for the expert opinion on the relationships among coaches, players, and court officials during matches. It clarifies some of the confusions. Any more new threads from you soon

[azabaz_ipoh]

I did not know which incident you brought up in the first place regarding "i think LCW had faced a shouting LYB before but i dont remember reading that he threw a racket or start a fight with LYB." So I said "LCW facing shouting of LYB if true" it would be different ...If this is something you care to debate with me about, please find the reference and the facts and bring them here, I promise that I will find you the differences.

You had given me an example of "zidane and materazzi world cup fiasco". Since I don't really follow and know much about soccer, I will leave you with my last comments. And I'm not interested in debating about other sports, which I don't even play.

Again the debate is getting out of the subject of baddy and MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07. I'm neither in a position nor interested in commenting on all these different and complicate scenarios.

Please try not put words in my mouth. What I said was I meant. BCers can read themselves. I made the comments in response to your comments, which was a response to my comments. Now you want to debate me on my latest comments. This will never end, even if we spend the rest of our lives on this debate, which has already gone beyond the initial intent. We will have to agree to disagree on some of the fundamental issues barely touched upon in our exchanges.

Ok the first paragraph, that issue i misunderstood. yes LCW did not throw a racket at anybody. so it is different from LD that did throw a racket.

for paragraph two and three, i gave examples of other sports because to know the impact on professional players in a high tension game is similar in any sport. and that includes baddy and football. because there is no precedence of this action in baddy i have to refer to another sport. i think the comparison was justified in highlighting my point.

for the third paragraph, i believe i was asking and not assuming that you meant it that way. those were questions. and i still haven't read your answers to those two questions. yeah, debates mean people will do rebuttals but i guess it should end somewhere. i hope you are not mad. i see this as a healthy debate. and thus i will indeed agree to disagree with you.

[Winston_T]

That incident happened in WC 2006 in Madrid. It was LCW vs China MS, I think it was BCL,definately not LD. LYB shouted "Break his legs" in Mandarin, it effected LCW psychologically, LCW lost the match.

I thought it was LCW vs LD during Taiwan open or Macao open

[Birdwood]

for the third paragraph, i believe i was asking and not assuming that you meant it that way. those were questions. and i still haven't read your answers to those two questions. yeah, debates mean people will do rebuttals but i guess it should end somewhere. i hope you are not mad. i see this as a healthy debate. and thus i will indeed agree to disagree with you.

I'm not mad. I only debate the things I know and for sure I can win based on facts. Beyond that, I neither have the time nor the energy

[badMania]

I'm not mad. I only debate the things I know and for sure I can win based on facts. Beyond that, I neither have the time nor the energy

I am still curious though because I don't think you have answered this specific question posted by azabaz_ipoh:

"i think some wrong are clear cut. throwing a racket away from yourself aiming at a place where there are people without those people harming you with bodily harm in the first place, whether you hit them or not, is wrong. do you say otherwise"

So, do you think that Lin Dan's action of hurling the racket at Li Mao was justified? Sorry if you did answer this question before as I am lazy to check out entire thread