The impact of bad linecalls on MSF players in KO 08 and CO 07

[Birdwood]

Update on Taufik's sanctions/punishment for HK 2006 -
Huang tried to find out, as far as he remember, no suspension for Taufik in the end, it was mentioned in news report bf Displinary Board's final decision. Taufik didnt go for one tourney, so ppl assumed Taufik got suspended.

Fine - As far as Huang recalls, PBSI or Taufik paid fine, dunno how much or when, since Displinary Board's decision was 23 Sept, match was 31 Aug.

Anyway, the official announcement is Taufik didnt get 2,970 ranking pts & USD$2,500 from HK 2006.

http://internationalbadminton.org/ne...r=2006&month=9

http://internationalbadminton.org/ne...r=2006&month=9

Thanks for digging deep into old records. The first link is the same as the conference, the second one tells what happened. No where mentioned TH paid any fine. Very interesting and a little mysterious.

[eaglehelang]

I thought it was LCW vs LD during Taiwan open or Macao open

Oh no, about that again. It was LCW vs BCL during WC 2006.

http://internationalbadminton.org/ne...r=2006&month=9

"The key to this match occurred at the end of the first game when Lee Chong Wei led 20/18 before making two easy unforced errors and letting Bao come back into the game. A few seconds later he was the winner of the first game 22/20. The Malaysian then got his game together in the second with a clear lead to force a third game.
This match saw some controversial behaviour from Bao’s Coach Li Yongbo who allegedly yelled some threats at Lee. After the game finally lost by Lee 18/21, the top seed was unwilling to speak to the Chinese press because of the incident, which was unlike his usually mild manner. "


It came out all over Malaysian newspapers, also in WC 2006 threads.
I dont subscribe online newspaper, they dont provide archives for non-subscribers, so cant copy & paste the news here.

from associated press :
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...BAD_Worlds.php

[Birdwood]

I am still curious though because I don't think you have answered this specific question posted by azabaz_ipoh:

"i think some wrong are clear cut. throwing a racket away from yourself aiming at a place where there are people without those people harming you with bodily harm in the first place, whether you hit them or not, is wrong. do you say otherwise"

So, do you think that Lin Dan's action of hurling the racket at Li Mao was justified? Sorry if you did answer this question before as I am lazy to check out entire thread

The bold-faced quote was a complicate sentence (post #197), I was not quite sure I understood it completely so I chose not to answer it before. But since you put it in a straight forward question, it would be easier for me to respond. No, I don't think LD's action was justified. As I said before "No way I condone his behavior" (post #96). LD over-reacted. But his reaction was clearly provoked by LM, so LM shared the blame, as well as the linesmen for treating LD unfairly. All of them should be punished for their actions.

[Birdwood]

Oh no, about that again. It was LCW vs BCL during WC 2006.

http://internationalbadminton.org/ne...r=2006&month=9

"The key to this match occurred at the end of the first game when Lee Chong Wei led 20/18 before making two easy unforced errors and letting Bao come back into the game. A few seconds later he was the winner of the first game 22/20. The Malaysian then got his game together in the second with a clear lead to force a third game.
This match saw some controversial behaviour from Bao’s Coach Li Yongbo who allegedly yelled some threats at Lee. After the game finally lost by Lee 18/21, the top seed was unwilling to speak to the Chinese press because of the incident, which was unlike his usually mild manner. "


It came out all over Malaysian newspapers, also in WC 2006 threads.
I dont subscribe online newspaper, they dont provide archives for non-subscribers, so cant copy & paste the news here.

from associated press :
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...BAD_Worlds.php

The bold-faced part quoted from the first link does not tell anything. The second link was still what LCW said about what LYB said. No help either.

[kuai_chai]

i think to prevent such thing from happening in future, tournaments like this should not have the linesman and umpires from organizing countries.
they should hire linesman and umpires from different countries to avoid such thing from happening again.
but it seems like BWF never think about it =.=

[eaglehelang]

The bold-faced part quoted from the first link does not tell anything. The second link was still what LCW said about what LYB said. No help either.

Yes I know, not for us, since we already know.
it was a reply to Winston who thought it was some other tournament... it was just to show it happened during WC 2006.

[badMania]

The bold-faced quote was a complicate sentence (post #197), I was not quite sure I understood it completely so I chose not to answer it before. But since you put it in a straight forward question, it would be easier for me to respond. No, I don't think LD's action was justified. As I said before "No way I condone his behavior" (post #96). LD over-reacted. But his reaction was clearly provoked by LM, so LM shared the blame, as well as the linesmen for treating LD unfairly. All of them should be punished for their actions.

Ok...thanks for the answer

Yes, Lin Dan clearly admitted that he was provoked by Li Mao's words. As for the linemen...well...the INA XD pair also suffered

[chris-ccc]

.
Something important has been brought out (in the quote above).

IMHO......

During play, a player can talk to the umpire. I stress that for complains of any kind, the player should only direct them to the umpire, not to the lines judges, not to the service judges, not to the opponent, and not to the coach. The umpire controls the play.

During play, a coach can talk to the referee. I stress that for complains of any kind, the coach should only direct them to the referee, not to the umpire, not to the service judges, not to lines judges, not to the opponent or trainee. The referee controls the tournament.

It is during the interval/break when coaches and trainees can talk to one another.
.

Hi, chris@ccc, haven't seen you much in any heated exchanges or hotly contested threads. I assumed you had wonderful time with your baddy games and tried to avoid controversy.

.
Hahaha... I thought what I posted there was answering what should be the correct actions required for LD, LM, the linesperson, the umpire and the tournament referee.

1. For bad calls by the linesperson, LD should ask the umpire to have the linesperson be replaced.
2. For bad decisions by the umpire, LM should ask the referee to have the umpire be replaced.
3. For LD throwing his racket, the umpire should give LD an official warning.
4. For LD yelling at LM, the umpire should give LD an official warning.
5. The umpire could decide that LD to lose his match by forfeit.
6. For LM yelling at LD, the referee should give LM an official warning.
7. The referee could decide that LM to be sent out from courtside.

When all the "bad" linesperson, player, coach and umpire are gone, we can have "good" Badminton, or should I say, the match be awarded to LHI.

.

[badMania]

.When all the "bad" linesperson, player, coach and umpire are gone, we can have "good" Badminton, or should I say, the match be awarded to LHI.

So, we will have peace and the same result of Lee Hyun Il winning the Korea Open 2008.

[Birdwood]

.
When all the "bad" linesperson, player, coach and umpire are gone, we can have "good" Badminton, or should I say, the match be awarded to LHI.

.

I don't know what you meant here, which match

[Birdwood]

Some comparisons between MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07 in my opinions:

.………………………………………….LD…………………LCW
.……………………………………….(KO 08)…………(CO 07)

biased linesmen.…………………yes.……………….yes
provocative coach.…………….LM.…………………no
helpful umpire.…………………….yes.……………….no
robbed MSF title.……………….yes.…………….possibility
bad behavior.…………………….yes.…………….not at all
penalty.………………………………yes.……….....not applicable

clarifications:
1. Three biased and bad line calls against LD in MSF KO 08 were overruled by the umpire. The linesmen in both MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07 were not replaced.
2. LD won two consecutive points after the point of the last bad line call was given wrongly to LHI, when the match was at 21-21, a critical juncture in MSF KO 08.
3. LD, LM, and Korean linesmen should all be penalized for their respective misconducts in MSF KO 08.

If anyone does not agree with me on the comparisons, we can agree to disagree or keep on debating. Otherwise thank you for reading and contributing to this thread

[kwun]

Some comparisons between MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07 in my opinions:

.………………………………………….LD…………………LCW
.……………………………………….(KO 08)…………(CO 07)

biased linesmen.…………………yes.……………….yes
provocative coach.…………….LM.…………………no
helpful umpire.…………………….yes.……………….no
robbed MSF title.……………….yes.…………….possibility
bad behavior.…………………….yes.…………….not at all
penalty.………………………………yes.……….....not applicable

clarifications:
1. Three biased and bad line calls against LD in MSF KO 08 were overruled by the umpire. The linesmen in both MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07 were not replaced.
2. LD won two consecutive points after the point of the last bad line call was given wrongly to LHI, when the match was at 21-21, a critical juncture in MSF KO 08.
3. LD, LM, and Korean linesmen should all be penalized for their respective misconducts in MSF KO 08.

If anyone does not agree with me on the comparisons, we can agree to disagree or keep on debating. Otherwise thank you for reading and contributing to this thread

i think a couple of fields are not as obvious. here is how i think would be an alternative way to classify:

.………………………………………….LD…………………LCW
.……………………………………….(KO 08)…………(CO 07)

biased linesmen.…………………yes.……………….yes
provocative coach.…………….LM.…………………no
biased umpire.…………………….no..……………….yes
robbed MSF title.……………….possibility..….possibility
bad behavior.…………………….yes.…………….not at all
penalty.………………………………yet to see...not applicable

[ants]

There will be a penalty but i hope it is not severe.

[badMania]

I don't know what you meant here, which match

Of course the Men's Singles Final match

"Bad" linesman --> replaced
"Bad" coach --> red card, expelled from court
"Bad" player --> red card also

the only remaining "good" player on court was Lee Hyun Il, and he walked home with his prized MS title in Korea Open 2008

[badMania]

i think a couple of fields are not as obvious. here is how i think would be an alternative way to classify:

.………………………………………….LD…………………LCW
.……………………………………….(KO 08)…………(CO 07)

biased linesmen.…………………yes.……………….yes
provocative coach.…………….LM.…………………no
biased umpire.…………………….no..……………….yes
robbed MSF title.……………….possibility..….possibility
bad behavior.…………………….yes.…………….not at all
penalty.………………………………yet to see...not applicable

Agree with kwun here. The umpire in the Korea Open 2008 was definitely not biased, unlike those we saw in the China Open 2007.

Also, another consideration is Lin Dan had another chance to seal the match even after the controversial line call happened, however, LCW was never in contention as he was already demoralised when the line call happened from the middle stage of the first set.

[Birdwood]

Some comparisons between MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07 in my opinions:

.………………………………………….LD…………………LCW
.……………………………………….(KO 08)…………(CO 07)

biased linesmen.…………………yes.……………….yes
provocative coach.…………….LM.…………………no
helpful umpire.…………………….yes.……………….no
robbed MSF title.……………….yes.…………….possibility
bad behavior.…………………….yes.…………….not at all
penalty.………………………………yes.……….....not applicable

clarifications:
1. Three biased and bad line calls against LD in MSF KO 08 were overruled by the umpire. The linesmen in both MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07 were not replaced.
2. LD won two consecutive points after the point of the last bad line call was given wrongly to LHI, when the match was at 21-21, a critical juncture in MSF KO 08.
3. LD, LM, and Korean linesmen should all be penalized for their respective misconducts in MSF KO 08.

If anyone does not agree with me on the comparisons, we can agree to disagree or keep on debating. Otherwise thank you for reading and contributing to this thread

i think a couple of fields are not as obvious. here is how i think would be an alternative way to classify:

.………………………………………….LD…………………LCW
.……………………………………….(KO 08)…………(CO 07)

biased linesmen.…………………yes.……………….yes
provocative coach.…………….LM.…………………no
biased umpire.…………………….no..……………….yes
robbed MSF title.……………….possibility..….possibility
bad behavior.…………………….yes.…………….not at all
penalty.………………………………yet to see...not applicable

Thanks for the changes. Some of the fields are clearer now. The only major difference between our tables is that I thought that LD would have won the MS title in KO 08 if the last bad line call against him had been overruled (LD won the subsequent two points). I agree it's still a possibility. But the possibility was high enough for me to say LD was robbed of the MS title in KO 08. BCers may have many different opinions on the degree of the possibilities that LD and LCW each had their MS title taken away by biased line calls in KO 08 and CO 07, respectively. We can all agree to disagree on the conceptual degree of those possibilities