The impact of bad linecalls on MSF players in KO 08 and CO 07

**ctjcad** · 01-27-2008, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by yen_saw

It is useless, the only way to resolve this is to implement instant replay, each player has 3 call to overrule just like in Tennis or American football. When all challenges exhasuted, the player has to obey the umpire's call that is it.

Originally Posted by indra

yes. agree...

It is really expensive to have the instant replay cameras...? how much? just wondering?

..in BC, with extra $$$ hanging around, willing to sponsor such instant replays/hawkeye system?? Since the suggestion have come mostly from BCers...

**vching** · 01-27-2008, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by ctjcad

..in BC, with extra $$$ hanging around, willing to sponsor such instant replays/hawkeye system?? Since the suggestion have come mostly from BCers...

no need hawkeye lah... just instant replay/3rd umpire like cricket.... even on TV you can see whether a shuttle is in or not.... just use existing equipment ...

**madbad** · 01-27-2008, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by indra

yes. agree...

It is really expensive to have the instant replay cameras...? how much? just wondering?

BWF still probably too poor to afford them... at least something similar to the hawkeye system. Remember, it's not just one, it's several to monitor all the lines, and for 4 courts (average per tournament)

**indra** · 01-28-2008, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by madbad

BWF still probably too poor to afford them... at least something similar to the hawkeye system. Remember, it's not just one, it's several to monitor all the lines, and for 4 courts (average per tournament)

I guess BWF MUST establish a new division in charge of raising more funds/sponsors to modernize Badminton...Thre is no reason for BWF to say " it is hard, difficult, or the likes....BWF MUST be able to find and hire a group of smart people to lead the new division..."...BWF should adopt and embrace the YOU-CAN-IF-YOU-THINK-YOU-CAN principle.

**ssjtygrysek** · 01-28-2008, 12:08 AM

I agree that the line judges and upmires should all be from different countries then either one of the players. That would at least solve the bias problem though not all the time considering that each person no matter from what country always has a favorite player and if that player happens to be playing the game they are judging at we might have the same bias situation. As for the Hawkeye idea, its good but I don't think that BWF is going to do it anytime soon.

As for the reaction of the LD's coaches I think that was uncalled for. If I was LD I think I would have reacted the same way or at least would have been really pissed off. I don't know what the outcome should have been, they are suppose to be professional players but when stuff like this happens at that point in the game and more then once in a match I think the players have the right to get pissed and sometimes you just can't control yourself and you lose it. You will have to pay the consequences but it doesn't really matter to you at that point. I do think that LD should have still acted respectfully with his opponent, which I believe he did after watching the video, it's not his fault that the line call was bad.

But here is a question, if LHI saw the shot himself and if it really was out but how much LD was saying it was. Should he have give the next point away to LD on purpose as an act of good sportsmanship? I know the stakes are high and it might have risked the game for LHI but still would that have been a good thing to do? Just curious what other think about this. I could have sworn that LCW gave one of the points away back to TH in one of the recent finals that they met. I believe that TH played a great rally and had LCW in a lot of trouble and then LCW ended up hitting a shot which was clearly out (i think thats what the situation was) (both TH and LWC knew it) but the line judge called it in and then LCW gave the next rally away to TH on purpose.

**jump_smash** · 01-28-2008, 12:10 AM

1. The BWF address this issue of line judges, by simply just using the international line judges as in Thomas and Uber Cups 2006 for all Super series matches. The use international referees and pay them accordingly.
As i have said before if BWF is serious it will do the same with line judges.

2. Lee Hun Il played an incredible match, and show he can beat anyone, as in his previous rounds of Korea Super series and Malaysia Super Series. But not just this he previous from in Sudirman Cup 2003(http://www.badmintonsalon.com/forums...ead.php?t=9322)

3. Li Mao and Lin Dan should be dealt with by BWF for the manner of their actions during the final.

4. Being a former line judge (at many tournaments such as Sydney Olympics 2000) I can attest to the concentration required and pressure of matches.

5. Korean line judges, should not be singled out. Their have been dubious calls at other events. I personally shaw some at Thomas and Uber Cups 2002 in Guangzhou (noting since WBF used international line judge team as in Japan Thomas and Uber Cups 2006 - where I attend, there does seem to be any issues.

6. Yes Taufik and others have had issues with their poor behaviour on court before, but that doesn't make Lin Dan's actions okay.
I saw Lin Dan play Taufik in Japan Thomas and Uber Cups, and the was an interesting issue. The Japanese had a large video screen showing the match at on end of the stadium behind one end of the finals court. For the first game Taufik saw the screen and ignored it. then when they changed over Lin Dan saw it and complained straight away.

**skunklover** · 01-28-2008, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by ssjtygrysek

But here is a question, if LHI saw the shot himself and if it really was out but how much LD was saying it was. Should he have give the next point away to LD on purpose as an act of good sportsmanship? I know the stakes are high and it might have risked the game for LHI but still would that have been a good thing to do? Just curious what other think about this. I could have sworn that LCW gave one of the points away back to TH in one of the recent finals that they met. I believe that TH played a great rally and had LCW in a lot of trouble and then LCW ended up hitting a shot which was clearly out (i think thats what the situation was) (both TH and LWC knew it) but the line judge called it in and then LCW gave the next rally away to TH on purpose.

i know I would have given it to him. If i knew that it was clearly out...I would lose then next on purpose...If it was maybe..then i would just play on as normal. Event though the game is close....if you know that you should have lost that point, you would give it to the other party, to be fair..

**alfa-2** · 01-28-2008, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh

i think this is why badminton in neutral ground are always more enjoyable and less controversial than china open, china masters, korea open, and even indonesia open and thailand open and malaysia open. i just hope olympics will be conducted like the all england. no biased calls.

can you leave Malaysia out of it?? i dont remember any issues similar of KO or CO happening in MO.

i recalled of a thread praising MO line judges for the unbiased line calls.

**Birdwood** · 01-28-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by ssjtygrysek

As for the reaction of the LD's coaches I think that was uncalled for. If I was LD I think I would have reacted the same way or at least would have been really pissed off. I don't know what the outcome should have been, they are suppose to be professional players but when stuff like this happens at that point in the game and more then once in a match I think the players have the right to get pissed and sometimes you just can't control yourself and you lose it. You will have to pay the consequences but it doesn't really matter to you at that point. I do think that LD should have still acted respectfully with his opponent, which I believe he did after watching the video, it's not his fault that the line call was bad.

Just LD's coaches? I thought it also involed LHI's coach LM

But here is a question, if LHI saw the shot himself and if it really was out but how much LD was saying it was. Should he have give the next point away to LD on purpose as an act of good sportsmanship? I know the stakes are high and it might have risked the game for LHI but still would that have been a good thing to do? Just curious what other think about this. I could have sworn that LCW gave one of the points away back to TH in one of the recent finals that they met. I believe that TH played a great rally and had LCW in a lot of trouble and then LCW ended up hitting a shot which was clearly out (i think thats what the situation was) (both TH and LWC knew it) but the line judge called it in and then LCW gave the next rally away to TH on purpose.

If this is the case, I would raise my hand, and said the call was bad and the point should be given to my opponent instead of waiting to return a favor by purposely giving away the next point. A bad call is a bad call, which players are aware of, just don't have the guts to admit them when favoring themselves and the national pride is at stake.

Imaging that LCW lost MO 08 MSF to LHI in a tight match, what would have happened to Msia linesmen, who appeared to bend backwards to call in favor of LHI because some of shuttlecocks landed to close to call. Fortunately, LCW won the match, which let the linesmen off the hook.

**ssjtygrysek** · 01-28-2008, 12:41 AM

yeah I would personally like to see that kind of sportsmanship where a player would give the next "rally" back if he clearly saw it was out. As much As I would want to win, I want to win fair without any bad line calls.

**ssjtygrysek** · 01-28-2008, 12:44 AM

If this is the case, I would raise my hand, and said the call was bad and the point should be given to my opponent instead of waiting to return a favor by purposely giving away the next point. A bad call is a bad call, which players are aware of, just don't have the guts to admit them when favoring themselves and the national pride is at stake.

Imaging that LCW lost MO 08 MSF to LHI in a tight match, what would have happened to Msia linesmen, who appeared to bend backwards to call in favor of LHI because some of shuttlecocks landed to close to call. Fortunately, LCW won the match, which let the linesmen off the hook.[/quote]

Sorry I really meant to say all the coaches. And yeah you are right I would have made the argument (if I was in LHI position about the call being out) but I don't believe that the umpire would overrule it anyway since the players don't have much say, but it would be worth a shot. Otherwise if that didn't work give the next rally away.

**huangkwokhau** · 01-28-2008, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by ssjtygrysek

yeah I would personally like to see that kind of sportsmanship where a player would give the next "rally" back if he clearly saw it was out. As much As I would want to win, I want to win fair without any bad line calls.

Most of them, if it is too close to call like 1 or 2 inch...umpires could not do anything to correct it unless it lands on his side...already happened in earlier round between Nova/Butet vs LYD/LHI...eventhough some calls had been corrected but it made Nova very emotional and did not play focusly...actually INA XD coach blamed Nova not to focus and let it affect his play....also INA XD coach told me that it happened some calls in final between Flandy/Vita but it was too close and they knew that even they complained, umpire could not overrule....Like PG said that bad calls are part of the games....unfortunate things happen...

**Birdwood** · 01-28-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by alfa-2

can you leave Malaysia out of it?? i dont remember any issues similar of KO or CO happening in MO.

i recalled of a thread praising MO line judges for the unbiased line calls.

Our Leen is the neutral spokesperson in BC so she was just nice enough to include MO to avoid any appearance of partiality, no harm done here

But the point is well taken that Msia may not be considered a "neutral ground" in her definition because Msia is a serious contender for baddy titles

**madbad** · 01-28-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by indra

I guess BWF MUST establish a new division in charge of raising more funds/sponsors to modernize Badminton...Thre is no reason for BWF to say " it is hard, difficult, or the likes....BWF MUST be able to find and hire a group of smart people to lead the new division..."...BWF should adopt and embrace the YOU-CAN-IF-YOU-THINK-YOU-CAN principle.

Hi Indra, your presence on BC is very sporadic recently. I think it all starts from the top. A good leader will set the standard for his followers. In my (and most BC members) opinion, BWF is a mickey mouse operation, with slow and unprogressive approaches. I acknowledge they're trying to push badminton more into the mainstream but it's how they're going about it that's questionable? They have got to get more professional, act more professional and portray themselves a professional organization. The marketing is so staid and uncreative. I'd hate to think who constitutes their think tank.

I did suggest in another thread that every BC member contribute $10 towards helping BWF purchase the hawkeye system.

**azabaz_ipoh** · 01-28-2008, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Birdwood

Our Leen is the neutral spokesperson in BC so she was just nice enough to include MO to avoid any appearance of partiality, no harm done here

But the point is well taken that Msia may not be considered a "neutral ground" in her definition because Msia is a serious contender for baddy titles

thank you birdwood for understanding.

i did not mean to say that these tournament is controversial and will always be. i wanted to say that these places are more likely to be controversial because of the passion for badminton and the need to win is very high.

sorry if anybody misunderstood me

**huangkwokhau** · 01-28-2008, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by madbad

Hi Indra, your presence on BC is very sporadic recently. I think it all starts from the top. A good leader will set the standard for his followers. In my (and most BC members) opinion, BWF is a mickey mouse operation, with slow and unprogressive approaches. I acknowledge they're trying to push badminton more into the mainstream but it's how they're going about it that's questionable? They have got to get more professional, act more professional and portray themselves a professional organization. The marketing is so staid and uncreative. I'd hate to think who constitutes their think tank.

I did suggest in another thread that every BC member contribute $10 towards helping BWF purchase the hawkeye system.

We do not mind contributing US$ 10...but make sure that money did not dissapear like Petronas's gift to BWF...as no one knows how to track it down the fund until now....

**V3i HoN6** · 01-28-2008, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by ssjtygrysek

yeah I would personally like to see that kind of sportsmanship where a player would give the next "rally" back if he clearly saw it was out. As much As I would want to win, I want to win fair without any bad line calls.

That's not fair.
I would give 2 points back to call it fair.
Or insists the umpire overrule it.
I dont see any reason why the umpire wont if both players protesting for it.
2 points man.
That's why line call is so important to a game.
1 wrong call actually costs you 2 points.

Originally Posted by Birdwood

If this is the case, I would raise my hand, and said the call was bad and the point should be given to my opponent instead of waiting to return a favor by purposely giving away the next point. A bad call is a bad call, which players are aware of, just don't have the guts to admit them when favoring themselves and the national pride is at stake.

Right sir.

Originally Posted by alfa-2

can you leave Malaysia out of it?? i dont remember any issues similar of KO or CO happening in MO.

i recalled of a thread praising MO line judges for the unbiased line calls.

Still, there might possibilities of unintentional bad calls to be intepreted into homer calls and we really dont like to see this happens.

Originally Posted by ssjtygrysek

I could have sworn that LCW gave one of the points away back to TH in one of the recent finals that they met. I believe that TH played a great rally and had LCW in a lot of trouble and then LCW ended up hitting a shot which was clearly out (i think thats what the situation was) (both TH and LWC knew it) but the line judge called it in and then LCW gave the next rally away to TH on purpose.

Didn't he ask the umpire to overrule a bad calls in favor him during a match with Wacha during MO open too?