The impact of bad linecalls on MSF players in KO 08 and CO 07

[azabaz_ipoh]

I totally agree to hold everyone accountable based on the rules. But it appeared to be more complex this time than simply LD did something or TH did something. There was a series of events leading to the point of boiling over. It's very difficult for BWF to meter out punishments proportional to how much each side should share the blame. BWF shares the blame too for an out-dated line-judging system, which is hardly working. I think WBF will take a symbolic action against LD or anyone, nothing substantial to avoid further aggravating or escalating the situation since it did appear LD had won the point and could possibly have won MS title in KO 08 without the bad line call.

I don't think it's BWF vs. LD, but BWF vs. Chn In my opinion, BWF will rather concentrate on fixing the problem instead of confronting thorny issues

btw, I am not familiar with the quote "LYB said to break LCW leg". If you care to elaborate, we could go into that for further discussion, otherwise I can't give my opinion on your question

reading from your comments, i feel like you feel that the injustice that happened to LD in korea is more important than the injustice to LCW in china because according to you LD could have won the KO if not for the last call that he did not agree with. however i feel that both LCW and LD might have been robbed but i think LD was luckier. why? because the umpire was not biased and thus LD had four bad calls turned in his favour. and that was why he could still score so close with LHI. you seem to think that LCW would have lost to BCL anyway in CO because of the score difference but please remember LCW had an umpire from china, who even faulted him when he tapped the shuttle one time in front of the net. he did not get any break. whatever close calls was always in BCL's favour. he may not threw his racket like LD did, which is noble of LCW to me, but he might have realized there is no point in trying to fight it since the umpire and the linesman seems adamant that he will not win the match. people can see that LCW was not playing his usual self in that match with BCL. i am not saying BCL did not deserve the win but i truly believe that if the umpire and linesman had not been very biased the fight would have been closer than that. but nothing can excuse the racket throwing of LD. he might have been angry, he might have been feeling pressured and agitated but badminton was never ice hockey and i hope will never be. he could have done so many other things like walking out like taufik did, or simply did not do anything like LCW did or maybe even throw and smash the racket in his half of the court but throwing the racket to your opponent's side of the court is not acceptable on any level. whether he was aiming at someone or was simply throwing without aiming at anyone. when i watched the video. i saw LD throw the racket out of frustration and not aiming at anyone in particular. but maybe after he threw the racket over to the opponent's side LM said something. maybe even curse him. maybe because he feels that LD was aiming the racket at somebody even though LD was not. and in turn LD reacted to whatever LM said. what really happened? only the people on that court at the time knows. we could only speculate.

That incident happened in WC 2006 in Madrid. It was LCW vs China MS, I think it was BCL,definately not LD. LYB shouted "Break his legs" in Mandarin, it effected LCW psychologically, LCW lost the match. In that incident, LCW was critised by many (Msia govern, media, fans)as mentally weak.

I think Sepang point is : The coach (LYB) made provacative remark, wasnt punished. So, should Li Mao be punished? Of course this incident is more dramatic.

i really dont think LCW should be intimidated even if LYB did say "break his legs" simply because he was nowhere near his opponent. they are on different side of the court. unless LCW was boxing or running alongside his opponent could the opponent maybe physically break his legs. and if it was merely a figure of speech then LCW should have just ignored it. LCW is still working on his mental strength i think as we can see from the outburst in the WC2007. hopefully he will be better in the future.

[twobeer]

With all my respect, I would like to agree with you that the assumption might not be either a sure thing or a correct one. We all play baddy one way or the other and we know anything can happen if we waited another 5'' before serving, serve a little differently, play the shuttlecocks at a slight different angle, etc. But, I was discussing it as an after-fact that LD did win the next point so he should have won the MS title in KO 08 if he had gained a point at 21-21. Nothing can beat that argument by simply looking at the sequence of the scores.

If anything changes, other things may or may not change and we will never find out. We can go into possibility and probability calculations, but with that we will not be able to discuss anything. One might ask what if there had been an earthquake in KO 08, then wouldn't we all be saved from those discussions, would we?

To serve for the match is quite different than receiving (as LD did 21-21) imop. You could also say LHI would already had 21 before this incident if the overuling was not made to LDs favour. But the point is mooth.. you cant really extrapolate results like that :-)

-Twobeer

[badMania]

I did not have cable Astro to tell you about G2. But in G3, bad calls were coming well "before all those controversies set in" plus LM's constantly bothering LD while behind LD during the match, don't you think these factors contributed to LD not able to finish those match points

Fact: all those "bad" calls were OVERRULED in Lin Dan's favor

Fact: Lin Dan had 1 match point at 20-19 in the second set, which he could not convert and ended up losing 21-23.

Fact: Lin Dan had 2 further match points at 20-18 before that controversial call was made, again, he could not convert those 2 match-points.

Fact: Lin Dan actually had 1 last match point at 23-22, which was after the controversial line call. He failed to nail that one as well, which eventually led to Lee Hyun Il winning the match.

So, who was it to blame if not himself?

[badMania]

To serve for the match is quite different than receiving (as LD did 21-21) imop. You could also say LHI would already had 21 before this incident if the overuling was not made to LDs favour. But the point is mooth.. you cant really extrapolate results like that :-)

-Twobeer

Agreed. If only that call was given to Lin Dan...if only Li Mao was not to bother Lin Dan...if only...if only.....yawn

[Alphonse]

Match points lost. So near, yet so far.

Oh well, Lin Dan. There's always the next tournament.

He gave me a weak smile when I shook his hand. He was still gracious.

[ctjcad]

Agreed. If only that call was given to Lin Dan...if only Li Mao was not to bother Lin Dan...if only...if only.....yawn

..who else wrote "If..."?? (see a few posts up)...

[badMania]

..who else wrote "If..."?? (see a few posts up)...

Naughty u Well...that's why I urge ppl to move on.....

BTW....u posted more than me on this incident I posted a mere 1 post before the replies just now.

[ctjcad]

Naughty u Well...that's why I urge ppl to move on.....

BTW....u posted more than me on this incident I posted a mere 1 post before the replies just now.

..too bad, i came juuust a bit late, as kwun/mods locked 1 thread (in the 2008 KO sub-forum) which i was planning to post in.....Anyway, it's all good; (hopefully) i'm sure this incident will "die off" by itself after a short while...

[eaglehelang]

If you know any video about this LYB incident, please let me know and I can take a look at it and will let you know my comments. Since it was said in Chinese, translation into "Break his legs" is not something I can fully comprehend. Do you know the exact word used in Chinese? That may help. If LYB had done anything unprofessional or unethical in KO 08 or in the future, I would write in a same way about his bad behavior as I did here.

i really dont think LCW should be intimidated even if LYB did say "break his legs" simply because he was nowhere near his opponent. they are on different side of the court. unless LCW was boxing or running alongside his opponent could the opponent maybe physically break his legs. and if it was merely a figure of speech then LCW should have just ignored it. LCW is still working on his mental strength i think as we can see from the outburst in the WC2007. hopefully he will be better in the future.

Birdwood, you asked the question, I was merely answering. To me, that incident wasnt as relevant as CO 2007 but since ppl have mentioned...
I'm surprised you even want to watch the vid, must have made you a curious cat rather than Wood pecker bird.

And no, I dont have the video, I joined BC abt same time as you did.
You need to ask the "Senior" BCers .

There are press reports in the WC 2006 thread :
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...t=36429&page=3

and 'fly' thru that WC 2006 thread & see.


Azabar - apparently there was also bad line calls. I remember it all over the papers that time. For details, read the WC 2006 thead & judge for yourself.

[azabaz_ipoh]

Azabar - apparently there was also bad line calls. I remember it all over the papers that time. For details, read the WC 2006 thead & judge for yourself.

again, i am azabaz not azabar. anyway, yes i know there was other things happening during the 'break you leg' match but i just want to point out that saying 'go break his legs' can't be accepted as physical intimidation since it is not contact sport and LCW should have not let that intimidate him mentally. and i also hope no malaysian fan will mention the "break your legs" incident again because i think that was just LCW being mentally weak rather than being harmed physically in any way. and i agree that this bad line calls are similar to CO2007 and not with the "break your legs" issue.

[eaglehelang]

Naughty u Well...that's why I urge ppl to move on.....

.

Aiyaaa, now no more tourney till after CNY. So if no controversy got nothing much to talk abt.

Oh yeah (he he starting sthing myself), how are the China press potraying this story? Sitting on fence, for LD, against LD?

[Birdwood]

Birdwood, you asked the question, I was merely answering. To me, that incident wasnt as relevant as CO 2007 but since ppl have mentioned...
I'm surprised you even want to watch the vid, must have made you a curious cat rather than Wood pecker bird.

And no, I dont have the video, I joined BC abt same time as you did.
You need to ask the "Senior" BCers .

There are press reports in the WC 2006 thread :
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...t=36429&page=3

and 'fly' thru that WC 2006 thread & see.


Azabar - apparently there was also bad line calls. I remember it all over the papers that time. For details, read the WC 2006 thead & judge for yourself.

Eagle, I did not ask you the question in the first place. sepang asked me first and I asked him to bring in the facts, before you gave a statement in supporting sepang's "break his legs" about LYB without all the facts I had requested. It's not I was curious, ppl make a statement about LYB infamous "Break his legs" and sound like it's true, either they need to know the facts to back this up or they better not to say it as a matter of fact. I don't like to go around making comments unless I can back up my words, that's why if anyone wants me to comment on something which I don't know about, please bring in the facts. Please notice: I did not start the thread on LYB.

From the link you provided above, it's only what LCW said what LYB said. And unfortunately, I don't have the time to " 'fly' thru that WC 2006 thread & see".

[Birdwood]

To serve for the match is quite different than receiving (as LD did 21-21) imop. You could also say LHI would already had 21 before this incident if the overuling was not made to LDs favour. But the point is mooth.. you cant really extrapolate results like that :-)

-Twobeer

mooth? a typo

The overturned line calls were bad and corrected by umpire, not me. So what you are arguing about? "LHI would already had 21 before this incident if the overuling was not made to LDs favour". If your assumption is correct here, next time, all we need is to have KO linesmen decide who will win MS title in KO SS instead of players

I did not extrapolate results, I only looked at the score occurred after 21-21. They were facts, not imaginary numbers with ifs ...LD should have won the point at 21-21, and the bad line call was not corrected. These were all facts, not extrapolations

[badMania]

I did not extrapolate results, I only looked at the score occurred after 21-21. They were facts, not imaginary numbers with ifs ...LD should have won the point at 21-21, and the bad line call was not corrected. These were all facts, not extrapolations

Like twobeer wrote: to serve for the match at 22-21 and win the point, will be different from to be at the receiving end and win it (which Lin Dan did to level the score).

So, the facts were different too:
Fact: Lin Dan got the point during Lee Hyun Il's serve.

Can you guarantee that Lin Dan would have won the match if he was serving for the match at 22-21 (supposedly if the controversial line call was given to Lin Dan too)?

Note that these 2 were entirely different scenarios (not the same which you have assumed them to be). That's why twobeer said you extrapolated

[eaglehelang]

Eagle, I did not ask you the question in the first place. sepang asked me first and I asked him to bring in the facts, before you gave a statement in supporting sepang's "break his legs" about LYB without all the facts I had requested. It's not I was curious, ppl make a statement about LYB infamous "Break his legs" and sound like it's true, either they need to know the facts to back this up or they better not to say it as a matter of fact. I don't like to go around making comments unless I can back up my words, that's why if anyone wants me to comment on something which I don't know about, please bring in the facts. Please notice: I did not start the thread on LYB.

From the link you provided above, it's only what LCW said what LYB said. And unfortunately, I don't have the time to " 'fly' thru that WC 2006 thread & see".

ok, ok, sori, I understand. Just that I was getting a bit tired of the referances to that incident (in all the threads abt this KO incident), so I said sthing 1st bf more ppl ask. Since it was 2 years ago, those who watched/recorded would have to dust their DVD/VCD disc to refresh their memory.

It's like in 2010, some newbie asks abt this KO 2008 incident, comes here & reads the threads & sees line by line description of the sequence, he, he.
If the newbie asks for the vid, we might have to wipe the dust off our disc/external harddrive too.

As I've said, me thinks CO 2007 is more relevant since this thread is talking abt that .

[Birdwood]

I just have one comment:

Lin Dan swept over Lee Hyun Il 21-4 and could have won it in the second set. Yet, he missed those matchpoints. The same thing happened in the rubber-set, before all those controversies set in. If he won it at that time, we wouldn't have all this bouhaha.

So, who was to be blamed, if not for Lin Dan himself He had the chances to seal up the match without any controversies and he failed to do that.

Move on ppl......

Again I would not go that far to blame a player for not finish the match as the cause of the problem. The confrontation was brought up in the first place by: bad line calls, dirty tricks by LM, and unresponsive umpire for the last bad call at 21-21 in MSF KO 08. Your argument in my opinion broke new ground in the BC forum

Fact: all those "bad" calls were OVERRULED in Lin Dan's favor

Are you saying these were not bad calls and should not be overruled by the umpire? I don't get it. Maybe you favor biased line calls instead

Fact: Lin Dan had 1 match point at 20-19 in the second set, which he could not convert and ended up losing 21-23.

I don't see why LD could not lose game 2? Did anywhere in SS says players had to win in straight games in order to win MS title in KO 08? Maybe that's in the book you have, then please share with us

Fact: Lin Dan had 2 further match points at 20-18 before that controversial call was made, again, he could not convert those 2 match-points.

Did you count the effect of biased line calls on LD's psychology and performance even though they were corrected by umpire? and did you count the effect of LM's dirty tricks on LD's psychology and performance why LD could not close the game 3 Look like you're all for those things as normal in MSF KO 08

Fact: Lin Dan actually had 1 last match point at 23-22, which was after the controversial line call. He failed to nail that one as well, which eventually led to Lee Hyun Il winning the match.

If the bad call at 21-21 was corrected, LD would have been at 22 to 21 LHI at the match point. Since LD won the next point, he would win the MS title in KO 08 by 23-21. There wouldn't any need to go to 23-22, LD went there because the bad call was not corrected, LM badly behaved, LD badly behaved and upset. Maybe you did not watch the match or the video clip about what happened at close 21-21 in MSF KO 08? How did you expect him to perform well after the incident? I thought that's what the linesmen and LM were doing to upset LD and help their losing player LHI

So, who was it to blame if not himself?

You made me laugh and don't even want to respond to such a comment

Agreed. If only that call was given to Lin Dan...if only Li Mao was not to bother Lin Dan...if only...if only.....yawn

Facing the facts, all of which happened in MSF KO 08. No one made up the story, only the biased linesmen and LM were to blame for their sportsmanship and dirty tricks unless you're all for it

[eaglehelang]

again, i am azabaz not azabar. anyway, yes i know there was other things happening during the 'break you leg' match but i just want to point out that saying 'go break his legs' can't be accepted as physical intimidation since it is not contact sport and LCW should have not let that intimidate him mentally. and i also hope no malaysian fan will mention the "break your legs" incident again because i think that was just LCW being mentally weak rather than being harmed physically in any way.
and i agree that this bad line calls are similar to CO2007 and not with the "break your legs" issue.

hiya, bad of me, sori, sori, the 'r' easier to remember than 'z'.
And yes, at 1st I didnt quite get why they keep mentioning it, so went to read the WC 2006 again. The main similarity I could find was in both LCW's reaction & subsequent lost was critised as "mentally weak."

And , I was trying to point their attention to CO 2007. With both of us, maybe can succeed, eh?