Who's the best player at the net?

**ctjcad** · 09-20-2008, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by mis-timed

I agree that Lee Yong Dae is a special talent.
(rest of insights snipped for brevity)...

...players from yesteryears, today and in the future, for the simple fact that we can't see them play each other. We only can judge the standard of play as might be the same if not comparable from yesteryears, today and in the future. Fans today, use the yesteryears' great players as barometer. Fans of the future will use today's and yesteryears' great players as barometer. And so on and so on.
The speed and power factors, i know most people will use the new scoring system as the basis. Speed & power wise, okay, might not be much different from y'day, today and future. But i see it as simply how the players are playing today, if i compare and watch the videos from matches/players in the olden days.
Btw, just wondering, you're not of Korean origin, are you, mis-timed??..

**FuWang** · 09-20-2008, 12:04 PM

Vote for Cai Yun........

**mis-timed** · 09-20-2008, 12:27 PM

Ctjcad, i am from the UK

I have absolutely no connections to anything Korean!! All i know is that they make good frontmen. If you do go further back in time and watch older players, then there is a big difference in pace, power and virtually everything. I am just hoping that a player comes along who can take badminton to a new level, a hyper level!! Seriously though, just how much faster do you think badminton can be? Do you think we will be sitting here in 20 years time thinking the players of today are moving in slow motion?

.

I agree that it is hard to compare players from different eras, but there is a limit on this. It makes me laugh when i see some ex tennis player saying how great an athlete Bjorn Borg was, or how he was the best player etc. It is crytal clear to me that if you put Bjorn Borg up against any ranked tennis player of today it would be an annihilation. Sorry for the tennis example! (what was i thinking?) I suppose my point is that even 10-15 years ago, if you really look at the standard of badminton, it hasn't changed that much. This is why it is such a good debate, the players are closer in terms of standards, there is little to choose.

Take the example of how Tony Gunawan destroyed KDM/HTK in one of the earlier posts. On that occasion he played better than KDM, and this is what it boils down to. If your frontman has a good day, then you win. I also remember seeing KDM/HTK beating Tony and Candra in an ALL England semi final, and on that day, KDM played better and so his team won. There is a very fine line between getting it right and getting it wrong if your at the front, and this difference usually decides who wins. Tony Gunawan is right up there with the best ever, his results and his play clearly reflect this. I am a badminton purist, i like watching the best play their best, no matter where they come from. It doesn't happen every week mind you, but every once in a while it does. The difference between the very best and the rest, is that it just happens more often for them. It seemed to happen quite often for Park

**cooler** · 09-20-2008, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by mis-timed

Well for me it has to be Park Joo Bong, closely followed by Kim Dong Moon. It seemed that Park laid the foundations and Kim Dong Moon carried it on. What made Park so good was that he was able to win at mixed doubles as well. Same as Kim Dong Moon. These two players dominated mixed doubles over many years with their partners. The reason why is because they were so good at the mid and front court.

the male player in a XD pair mainly responsible for the back court, how can u judge who's the best frontman in MD by how good he is in XD??LOLOLOL If the male player excells in the net front of the XD pair, his lady partner must got a crush smashing power to afford the guy to stay close to the net. I haven't yet seen any XD pair where the female is the power house and the guy stay around the net area LOLOLOL

Park had the ability to read the game quicker than everyone else, and the god given talent to finish off almost every rally at the net. It is very rare to see anyone dominating him at the net, in fact i can't remember anyone doing it consistently. Park and Kim Moon Soo were a great combination, and many times just blew the opposition away, and this was in a time of some great pairs, such as Li Yongbo/Tian Bingyi, The Sideks and Gunawan/Hartono. That was a golden era for Men's doubles, which has not been seen since.
If you paired Park and Kim against Ricky and Rexy, i think Park and Kim would win. If you remember the 1993 Surdiman Cup final, Park and Kim came out of their mens doubles retirement and played Ricky and Rudy Gunawan. Park and Kim destroyed them. and don't forget that Gunawan and Ricky then went on to win the individual world championships the very next week. Had Park and Kim entered then they would surely could have won.
i can't comment above because i haven't seen them enough to judge

The emergence of Chandra Wijaya and Sigit carried on the mantle, but Sigit appeared to be a bit inconsistent. Tony Gunawan paired up with Chandra, and this was a much more consistent pair, with Wijaya being a perfect foil for Tony Gunawan to express his skills at the net. This is what makes a good front man, you have to have a partner who will do the power play at the back to set things up. All the best men's doubles pairs had this combination. Park had Kim Moon Soo, Kim Dong Moon had Ha Tae Kwon, Tony Gunawan had Chandra etc.

However for tony G, he had success from pairing up with several other players as well, ex. halim heryanto, howard bach. Wouldnt this prove enough tony is better? kdm, park were good only with HIS OLD TRUSTY partner

There are some exceptions to this general rule, where both players in the pair are equal at the front and rear, but not that many. If you take todays pairs you have Fu and Cai, but let's face it, If you have the power of Fu at the back, whoever plays at the net will have good opportunities to show off their net skills. For me, Cai Yun is not in the same league as Park Joo Bong.

In fact, in my opinion, if you had Park Joo Bong and Kim Moon Soo at their peak, playing right now against the current best in the world, they would beat every single one of them. You could put Park up against any of the current front men, and there would be no competition. Many of you will disagree with this, but the standard of badminton that Park was able to achieve over 20 years ago would still be more than good enough today.

in doubles, A+A players don't equal to A or A+ performance, rather often u get less than A performance. What u said is just wishful thinking and has no basis. Tony G had successful track record with many different partners. I have more confidence to say tony G would do great today with kido or hendra Setiawan than u to say kdm+park would be unbeatable today.

............................................

**cooler** · 09-20-2008, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by mis-timed

I agree that Lee Yong Dae is a special talent. He is the successor to Park and Kim Dong Moon, and no doubt he will begin to dominate in men's and mixed, but only if he has good enough partners.

Exactly. Tony is great with many type of partnes. Never seen how kdm or park without their old trusty partner. How can u make projection about how park and kdm would do in today environment or how good they are with other partners?
do w The point about the speed of todays game i don't agree with. I think the change in the scoring system has made players a lot more attack minded, you have no other choice. However, if you take Park, he was about attack minded as you can get, and i believe todays scoring system would suit him even more. Players like him were able to win the quick points, the serve and return shots, the shots that win games. Forget the long rallies, the vast majority of points that Park won were in the first couple of shots, so i reckon he would fit in to the modern game just perfectly. This is how the very best frontmen play. The other key point is consistency. What sets the best apart from the rest is being able to perform at the highest level over many years.

To me, the Malaysian player KKK is very inconsistent. He has talent, no doubt, but there is no consistency there. The indonesians appear to be the big game players, their recent success bears testament to this.

Is there more power in todays game than 10 years ago? Do you really think that the players are smashing consistently harder than before? I doubt it, and if they are it is only slightly.( with the exception of Fu Haifeng) Do they move quicker? Again, if they do it is only slightly . What is apparent to me is that todays game is concentrated on serve and return more. There appears to be much quicker points than 10 years ago, and this is why your frontman, the one who anticipates, reacts quicker than the rest is so important. This is why i still think Park would excel in todays game.

today players do smash harder. I have no doubt about it. First, we have better equips now. Second, today's doubles players also have better defense too so it may appear to you that guys today are not smashing harder than those of yesterday years

Are u sure you're a purist???

Lee yong Dae is very good at the serve and return game. If you watched the Olympic MX final you will see just how good his low serve is, i don't think he missed a single serve. His returns are also very good, and his ability to come forward from the mid court to the net and end the rally is what sets him apart, and he is only going to get better at it too. Now, the distance from mid court to net is not that far, no matter what era you come from, and this is why players with the god given ability to able to come forward at the front of the court and end rallies will win. Park is the best there has ever been at this, Kim Dong Moon is a close second, Lee Yong dae may well become the next.

LOL. Having good serve and return game (defense?) and in XD does not constitute a player is the best frontman in MD.

why u keeping referencing LYD's XD gold match to his good frontman role??? LOLOLOLOLOL
This thread is about best frontman in MEN DOUBLES and LYD WAS ELIMINATED IN FIRST ROUND AT BEIJING OG. For a purist, you ain't that pure but very biased. LOLOLOLOL

Lars Paaske & Jonas Rasmussen (Denmark)
beat
Jung Jae-Sung & Lee Yong-Dae [3] (Korea)
21-16, 21-19 / 43'

........................................

**cooler** · 09-20-2008, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by mis-timed

Take the example of how Tony Gunawan destroyed KDM/HTK in one of the earlier posts. On that occasion he played better than KDM, and this is what it boils down to. If your frontman has a good day, then you win. I also remember seeing KDM/HTK beating Tony and Candra in an ALL England semi final, and on that day, KDM played better and so his team won. There is a very fine line between getting it right and getting it wrong if your at the front, and this difference usually decides who wins. Tony Gunawan is right up there with the best ever, his results and his play clearly reflect this. I am a badminton purist, i like watching the best play their best, no matter where they come from. It doesn't happen every week mind you, but every once in a while it does. The difference between the very best and the rest, is that it just happens more often for them. It seemed to happen quite often for Park

so u r saying kdm/htk aren't that consistent??

that video clip link posted by me shows tony pairing with halim, not candra.
Halim is a stronger back player so tony, being adaptable player, play more front. Candra isn't strong at the back as halim so tony can't afford to spend more time at the net. Double playing is about synergy, and tony is smart enough to adapt and change to suit specific partner style.

howard bach is also strong at the back, tony adapted and won the 2005 WC. Tony won that at age of 30.

tony and candra are still playing at pro circuit, is park, kdm or thk still playing at pro level now????

So stop making silly predicton of how kdm+ park would play at today level. If they are that good, they should be still playing

i havent seen much of park, i'm sure he's very good too but park and kdm only good with specific partner from what limit video that i have seen them play.

**ctjcad** · 09-20-2008, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by cooler

...However for tony G, he had success from pairing up with several other players as well, ex. halim heryanto, howard bach. Wouldnt this prove enough tony is better? kdm, park were good only with HIS OLD TRUSTY partner
...

...how did i miss mentioning Howard Bach's name in winning the first ever MD title for the U.S. @ the 2005 WC???...

**mis-timed** · 09-21-2008, 06:33 AM

Cooler, i am not biased at all. My thoughts on how the standard of badminton has not changed much is based on going to the all england champs for the last 25 years. In my opinion, the game has not moved on that much, especially in the last 15 years. This is why i think Park would still be good enough today. This is not a silly prediction at all. You even admit yourself that you have not seen much of Park, so how can comment on this?
Park did also win an all england title with Lee Sang Bok, a different partner.

**mis-timed** · 09-21-2008, 09:43 AM

Cooler,

Exactly. Tony is great with many type of partnes. Never seen how kdm or park without their old trusty partner. How can u make projection about how park and kdm would do in today environment or how good they are with other partners?
This is my opinion, the question must be asked as to why tony gunawan has had so many partners in the first place.

today players do smash harder. I have no doubt about it. First, we have better equips now. Second, today's doubles players also have better defense too so it may appear to you that guys today are not smashing harder than those of yesterday years

Are u sure you're a purist???
You also have no basis for your assumptions that todays players have better defence than those from a few years ago. How can you prove to me that they have better defences? Better equipment? the equipment comes down to who is using it, and the difference in equipment is not much better than 10 years ago, unless you believe the marketing hype from yonex etc.

the male player in a XD pair mainly responsible for the back court, how can u judge who's the best frontman in MD by how good he is in XD??LOLOLOL If the male player excells in the net front of the XD pair, his lady partner must got a crush smashing power to afford the guy to stay close to the net. I haven't yet seen any XD pair where the female is the power house and the guy stay around the net area LOLOLOL

Is it just a co-incidence that the two most successful male mixed players happen to be Park and Kim dong moon? Yes the traditional method of mixed is for the lady to be at the front, and the man to hit from the back. However, the very fact that park and kim were so good at coming forward to the front and ending rallies meant they won the many matches they played. There are countless examples of rallies which were won by these two men at the front of the court in mixed doubles. When they came forward the rally usually ended, the woman did not need to be stuck at the back because the shuttle never got past them at the front. It is this very ability to win points at the front of the court by these two men that won them so many titles in mixed doubles, and then also by using this talent to win so many mens doubles titles as well.

However for tony G, he had success from pairing up with several other players as well, ex. halim heryanto, howard bach. Wouldnt this prove enough tony is better? kdm, park were good only with HIS OLD TRUSTY par

Park joo Bong won the 1989 all england with Lee Sang Bok.

in doubles, A+A players don't equal to A or A+ performance, rather often u get less than A performance. What u said is just wishful thinking and has no basis. Tony G had successful track record with many different partners. I have more confidence to say tony G would do great today with kido or hendra Setiawan than u to say kdm+park would be unbeatable today.

If you read carefully what i said, i mention Park Joo Bong and Kim Moon Soo ( not kim dong moon) would be good enough today. I think you are confusing the Kim's here. Park joo Bong and Kim Dong Moon would be the A+A combination, but this would never work, they are too similar, which is why i said Park joo Bong and Kim moon soo, his regular partner.

LOL. Having good serve and return game (defense?) and in XD does not constitute a player is the best frontman in MD.

Not sure what you mean here, ie good serve and return defense? i have not mentioned that good serve and return is a defensive game? far from it, good serve and returns get you on the attack. i have answered the second part of your query before.

why u keeping referencing LYD's XD gold match to his good frontman role??? LOLOLOLOLOL
This thread is about best frontman in MEN DOUBLES and LYD WAS ELIMINATED IN FIRST ROUND AT BEIJING OG. For a purist, you ain't that pure but very biased. LOLOLOLOL

Lars Paaske & Jonas Rasmussen (Denmark)
beat
Jung Jae-Sung & Lee Yong-Dae [3] (Korea)
21-16, 21-19 / 43'

I keep referencing LEE YONG DAE and how good he is in mixed because it is clear that he is following the same path as park and kim dong moon. the very fact that he has already won an olympic gold shows how good he is at the front of the court. Yes, the jury is still out on lee yong dae at mens doubles, but he has won an all england title already, so he is going to be one of the best frontmen in mens doubles, because he is already good at mixed. There must be a reason why the koreans let him play mixed in the first place, and that reason is because he is good at the front of the court.

As far as me being biased, i am from the UK, i have no allegience to anything korean, indonesian, chinese etc. I just enjoy watching quality players, no matter where they come from. If anything it seems to me you are biased towards tony gunawan because you can only comment on what you have seen, ie tony gunawans play. If you had actually seen park play then you could perhaps be able to accept my opinion, which is all this is, just our own opinions.

**Wong8Egg** · 09-22-2008, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by mis-timed

Is it just a co-incidence that the two most successful male mixed players happen to be Park and Kim dong moon? Yes the traditional method of mixed is for the lady to be at the front, and the man to hit from the back. However, the very fact that park and kim were so good at coming forward to the front and ending rallies meant they won the many matches they played. There are countless examples of rallies which were won by these two men at the front of the court in mixed doubles. When they came forward the rally usually ended, the woman did not need to be stuck at the back because the shuttle never got past them at the front. It is this very ability to win points at the front of the court by these two men that won them so many titles in mixed doubles, and then also by using this talent to win so many mens doubles titles as well.

I am not sure about Park, but I do agree with mis-timed that Kim/Ra is one unordinary partnership that their strongest formation is when KDM storming to the front and you have to admire Kim's exceptional speed and antipcaition.

Cooler: Please see my earlier reply in response to the video you provided. KDM has been playing two events all the way to the final, while Tony is only concentrating in MD.

**cooler** · 09-22-2008, 05:52 PM

may i ask who is park joobong's mix partner? is it Ra Kyung-min?

**cooler** · 09-23-2008, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

Cooler: Please see my earlier reply in response to the video you provided. KDM has been playing two events all the way to the final, while Tony is only concentrating in MD.

on that video, it showed 2 rallies:

1. it was HTK's shot that tony G. buried.

2. second rally, tony was attacking HTK.

Don't give excuses for KDM

**mis-timed** · 09-23-2008, 12:57 PM

Park Joo Bong played most of his career with Chung Myung Hee, they won 4 or 5 all england titles and world championships together. He did partner Ra Kyung Min to another all england, as he gained qualification for the 1996 olympics. In that olympic final he actually lost to kim dong moon and his partner. After that final, Ra teamed up with Kim Dong Moon, so you could say that park helped Ra to become a mixed player.

**cooler** · 09-23-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by mis-timed

Park Joo Bong played most of his career with Chung Myung Hee, they won 4 or 5 all england titles and world championships together. He did partner Ra Kyung Min to another all england, as he gained qualification for the 1996 olympics. In that olympic final he actually lost to kim dong moon and his partner. After that final, Ra teamed up with Kim Dong Moon, so you could say that park helped Ra to become a mixed player.

No, i would say Park is a great match maker

**mis-timed** · 09-24-2008, 04:26 PM

Yeh, i wonder if Kim and Ra ever got it on

**pipit_raul** · 09-26-2008, 01:42 AM

where is ricky subagjda ?????

you forgot ricky subagja.......

ricky / rexy is the best men's double ever in the world............

lets check out the winner record....