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  1. #307
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    Lightbulb Goodbye crank!

    Quote Originally Posted by masterblaster99 View Post
    For sure.....welcome to the electronic club. Im sure you will like the 2086. I know Mark that you have seen my setup as we had some dialogue about the mounting height and clearance over the gripper.

    I have a Diablo, but cant use it without losing my 360 rotation.

    Based on recent discussion on this thread, I am of the opinion as well that final tension held is about 0.2-0.3 lbs below desired. My settings are:

    Speed = 3
    Set to constant pull
    Pre-stretch = 10%
    I am using Diablo (Tennis Head 2086) with Exthree Ex 2600 DC model, by adding an additional washer (6mm thickness) to lift 6 point mounting arm. Now it is moving 360 degrees rotation without any problem.

  2. #308
    Regular Member maa2003's Avatar
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    well, welcome to the club ...

    when I put Wise2086 (with diablo) on the Eagnas Combo912, I still can have the 360degree rotation.

    then when I put Wise2086 (with diablo) onto modified AEF machine (it was Flyer IV - a drop weight, then I purchased the mounting arm and tension-arm from AEF), I did not have 360degree rotation.
    So, I add washers on the 4-centre-bolts to increase the height, it worked, but I don't like it coz it made a gap between tension-arm and machine turntable.
    so, discussed with Michal to have a special version of his side-support (increased-height), and after using it, I really like it. No issue during stringing ...

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  3. #309
    Regular Member maa2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chandsj View Post
    I am using Diablo (Tennis Head 2086) with Exthree Ex 2600 DC model, by adding an additional washer (6mm thickness) to lift 6 point mounting arm. Now it is moving 360 degrees rotation without any problem.
    never try, but will try later by using thick plate (yes, around 5-6mm), and put under the mounting arms.

  4. #310
    Regular Member Mark A's Avatar
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    I've just Christened the WISE (with a TPro, appropriately) and first impressions are pretty good. While it's slightly slower than my crank, even on top speed, it is quite obviously safer - I noticed far less racket movement, heard fewer squeaks from my Michals, and got the racket off the mount with very little bind. This is no doubt because the WISE comes up to the set tension rather than overshooting and dropping down onto it. I didn't bother with the pre-stretch - I only pre-stretch by hand to make the string behave itself and take a bit of the plasticity out.

    The CP is also pretty useful - being able to straighten a cross while the thing is pulling is such a balm to my OCD (having a "perfect grid" is extremely important). The user interface is excellent - the buttons and LED are extremely responsive. Stuff I would like to have seen:

    cross button - a toggle button for adding/subtracting a percentage for crosses;
    knot button - adds a percentage for a single pull, then reverts to normal.

    I tried some calibration pulls with my digital scales, and the WISE came within 0.2 lb and stayed there. However, it could be argued that 0.1 lb is too accurate - watching the LED vacillate back and forth is hardly necessary; a Yonex-style half-pound-increment "set tension and wait for the beep" would be perfectly adequate for badminton.

    The diabolo... jury's out. I used BG80 for this string job and, as we all know, it does NOT take kindly to being bent. I will have to examine subsequent string jobs for gripper marks.

  5. #311
    Regular Member Mark A's Avatar
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    A few more rackets in, and I'm getting to know my electronic friend a bit better.

    I've done away with the diabolo - caused kinking, and when present it was mere milimeters away from the machine superstructure (too close for my manos de piedra). Something I've noticed with regard to completed jobs is that there's a lot less N/S compression, and my 12/6 supports come away with almost no bind at all. I can only put this down to the WISE pulling the friction out of crosses where my crank didn't (so the WISE crosses are slightly tighter and pull the frame more towards to the correct aspect ratio). For a laugh, I did a calibration pull with the constant pull switched off, and the result was... shocking. The true tension was there for maybe half a second, and then it fell through the floor. I've also fallen into the habit of nudging the crosses upward while the thing is pulling - I don't even think about it!

    I tried some direct pulls on my starting knot at full tension (26 in all cases) and there was no snapping or falling through, even with Zymax 62. Slowest speed was used, and left pulling for a three-count to give the knot time to sit down.

  6. #312
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    Gosh that sounds sweet. It appears that you are a happy man!

  7. #313
    Regular Member Mark A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fidget View Post
    Gosh that sounds sweet. It appears that you are a happy man!
    I'd have been happier if it'd made a smaller hole in my wallet. Thing is, once you've had a taste of the WISE, there's absolutely no way to go back...

  8. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A View Post
    A few more rackets in, and I'm getting to know my electronic friend a bit better.

    I've done away with the diabolo - caused kinking, and when present it was mere milimeters away from the machine superstructure (too close for my manos de piedra). Something I've noticed with regard to completed jobs is that there's a lot less N/S compression, and my 12/6 supports come away with almost no bind at all. I can only put this down to the WISE pulling the friction out of crosses where my crank didn't (so the WISE crosses are slightly tighter and pull the frame more towards to the correct aspect ratio). For a laugh, I did a calibration pull with the constant pull switched off, and the result was... shocking. The true tension was there for maybe half a second, and then it fell through the floor. I've also fallen into the habit of nudging the crosses upward while the thing is pulling - I don't even think about it!

    I tried some direct pulls on my starting knot at full tension (26 in all cases) and there was no snapping or falling through, even with Zymax 62. Slowest speed was used, and left pulling for a three-count to give the knot time to sit down.
    My outdoor court has been unplayable a lot this winter, but I now have three rackets to string including a new T-Pro, and two VT80's. Back in September 2011, I tested Mark's compound bulky starting knot at 33 lbs. on a first top cross using a crank machine with Zymax 62 and nothing broke! I've got pictures and still plan to write a review of Mark's knot.

    Now that Mark has a Wise machine, I am wondering if he has tested his starting knot at higher tensions. Constant pull is likely to be much tougher on a starting knot than a crank machine. When I pulled 33 lbs. on a top cross, I did it very slow and gentle, probably much slower than a Wise can pull at its slowest setting.

    I know Dinkalot has tried high tension top cross pulls on a Wise and had more trouble with mains breaking rather than the starting knot pulling out or breaking the cross string itself. But obviously a lot of things can go wrong including breaking the racket when pulling a top cross at 30 plus pounds.

    When I clamped a 33 lb. top cross, I let it sit a bit and then repulled it at 28 lbs, with the second cross at 29 lbs. and the rest at 30 lbs. Mains were at 30 lbs. Mark counseled that a progressive buildup on the crosses minimized any chances of egg shape distortion of the racket which was a beefy APACS Lethal 70. Didn't want to chance breaking my more expensive rackets.

    So the 33 lb. top cross pull was just a maximum test of the starting knot which passed with flying colors. But again, that was with a crank machine. How high of tension has anyone managed to pull a top cross with a constant pull machine and have nothing break?

  9. #315
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsmith View Post
    I know Dinkalot has tried high tension top cross pulls on a Wise and had more trouble with mains breaking rather than the starting knot pulling out or breaking the cross string itself. But obviously a lot of things can go wrong including breaking the racket when pulling a top cross at 30 plus pounds.
    Not certain what the paragraph above means exactly but this Panda has not had problems with any pulls once he optimized the WISE and stringing method top down (which was quite a while ago).

    Quote Originally Posted by bsmith View Post
    So the 33 lb. top cross pull was just a maximum test of the starting knot which passed with flying colors. But again, that was with a crank machine. How high of tension has anyone managed to pull a top cross with a constant pull machine and have nothing break?
    Panda has done 37lbs. on an Ultra 2 with ZM70 on the first cross top down.

    However, Panda obviously does not condone this and Panda now never does a single string top cross pull anymore. Panda always pulls from the 2nd cross and massages the top cross as well as the 2nd cross to get the slack out.

  10. #316
    Regular Member Mark A's Avatar
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    I tried my starting knot with 28 lb on Zymax 62 with a direct pull (on the slowest speed) - no problems. I can't see it struggling with any "normal" string up to 33.

    The difference between crank and ECP doesn't really manifest itself until after the lockout, so if the knot survives the initial "jerk", it's usually good to go for the CP "shuffling". You can always hang a starting clamp off the knot tail to stop it falling in, then remove it once you're sure the knot will hold.

  11. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinkAlot View Post
    Not certain what the paragraph above means exactly but this Panda has not had problems with any pulls once he optimized the WISE and stringing method top down (which was quite a while ago).

    Panda has done 37lbs. on an Ultra 2 with ZM70 on the first cross top down.

    However, Panda obviously does not condone this and Panda now never does a single string top cross pull anymore. Panda always pulls from the 2nd cross and massages the top cross as well as the 2nd cross to get the slack out.
    At post #12 here http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ce-Top-Down%29 Dinkalot says,

    Quote Originally Posted by DinkAlot View Post
    I'm basing all this on BG66. Have you tried pulling BG66 at 33lbs. on the first cross? With a 10% pre-stretch, it's 36.3lbs. and the knot flat out just snaps the main string. It doesn't matter how big of a knot you do.
    My understanding from the above quote is that Panda encountered breakage of the anchoring main string far too often to risk doing direct pulls on a top first cross when using a Wise machine. In my tests of Mark's starting knot, I wanted to get close to what Panda had tried years ago apparently unsuccessfully when using a Wise machine. Using a crank machine set to 33 lbs., nothing broke for me. But Panda had prestretch set on the Wise so to match his situation closer, I would really need to pull at 36 lbs. and let the cross relax to 33 lbs., but I haven't tried that yet.

    It sounds like Panda has since made a successful test pull of 37 lbs. on a single top cross without breakage, but does not recommend pulling direct on a single top cross because the risk of breaking something is still quite high.

    That makes good sense to me, but pulling first on the second cross and massaging the top cross makes me wonder what tension that first cross actually lands at. I also wonder whether the tension of the subsequent crosses all might relax somewhat into that uncertain first cross tension.

    I am sure Panda's approach is a very small compromise in order to minimize breakage risks, but I still wonder what would be considered the highest direct pull tension on a first top cross with Zymax 62 that can be done with a normal risk of anything breaking?

  12. #318
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsmith View Post
    I am sure Panda's approach is a very small compromise in order to minimize breakage risks, but I still wonder what would be considered the highest direct pull tension on a first top cross with Zymax 62 that can be done with a normal risk of anything breaking?
    Safely, ZM62, direct pull on the first cross, top down: 28lbs., 30 if a bit adventurous. But it's really dependent on the stringer. Panda usually does 30lbs. but starts at the second cross.

    Panda's been using ZM62 at 31lbs. recently and the feel is so good. It's all Alistair Casey's fault.

  13. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinkAlot View Post
    Safely, ZM62, direct pull on the first cross, top down: 28lbs., 30 if a bit adventurous. But it's really dependent on the stringer. Panda usually does 30lbs. but starts at the second cross.

    Panda's been using ZM62 at 31lbs. recently and the feel is so good. It's all Alistair Casey's fault.
    Thanks Panda! Anything can always break at anytime (my Victor MX80 frame broke recently at the 10 o'clock position while smashing) so I know nothing is absolutely guaranteed to work 100% of the time. But I do like going into something with confidence. I will string my new T-Pro at 30 square and go with a direct pull on the first cross.

    It's not that I am a good enough player to really tell the difference of a direct pull on the first cross, its just that as an engineer, I get a kick out of having the greater certainty on tension that comes with that approach.

  14. #320
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    Hello,

    I'm planning to buy a wise too but I need some information.
    I would like to know if the wise is accurate as a ES5PRO or another high end machine, or less accurate. I simply think I will buy a ES5PRO if it is better.
    I'm currently using a Eagnas ST-250, do the wise adaptable to this machine without problems ? And I will probably buy a better manual machine (if I buy Wise 2086) in few years, so do the wise adaptable to every machine ?

    Thanks

  15. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koo&Tan View Post
    Hello,

    I'm planning to buy a wise too but I need some information.
    I would like to know if the wise is accurate as a ES5PRO or another high end machine, or less accurate. I simply think I will buy a ES5PRO if it is better.
    I'm currently using a Eagnas ST-250, do the wise adaptable to this machine without problems ? And I will probably buy a better manual machine (if I buy Wise 2086) in few years, so do the wise adaptable to every machine ?

    Thanks
    ES5Pro tension head is more accurate and better than Wise. Wise is better than most of Eagnas electric tension unit.
    Yes, Wise can be mounted on Eagnas ST250. Only problem is you need to know how to take the crank tension head off. which is 5 min for me.
    To use on other manual machine in the future. WHO KNOWS. Unless I can see the future and you are buying a crank machine for sure, then there is a good chance it will fit. Otherwise, I really don't think anyone can tell you 100% sure.

  16. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A View Post
    I tried my starting knot with 28 lb on Zymax 62 with a direct pull (on the slowest speed) - no problems. I can't see it struggling with any "normal" string up to 33.

    The difference between crank and ECP doesn't really manifest itself until after the lockout, so if the knot survives the initial "jerk", it's usually good to go for the CP "shuffling". You can always hang a starting clamp off the knot tail to stop it falling in, then remove it once you're sure the knot will hold.
    Mark, it is good to hear that you have had success doing a Wise direct pull at 28 lb. with ZM62. You and Panda both seem to like 31 lbs. and ZM62 on your TPro's. I am thinking I may try that as well since I already use 30 lbs. on all my other rackets. Playing with Mavis 2000 plastic birds seems to require a lot of tension for good results on both smashes and dinks.. uh I mean drop shots.

    Following your principle of using progressive tension on crosses in a 2PTD approach, maybe starting with 28 lbs. on that first cross is a good way to go. But it would sure be good to know your opinion on what the safe upper limit is on a Wise direct pull on a first top cross. If you ever get a chance to explore those limits, please let us all know what the results were.

    I can feel a Wise unit coming soon for me. After JD2 finally starts actually taking money and shipping this new Model 52 pipe bender here http://www.jd2.com/ a Wise unit will be my next fun purchase.

  17. #323
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koo&Tan View Post
    Hello,

    I'm planning to buy a wise too but I need some information.
    I would like to know if the wise is accurate as a ES5PRO or another high end machine, or less accurate. I simply think I will buy a ES5PRO if it is better.
    I'm currently using a Eagnas ST-250, do the wise adaptable to this machine without problems ? And I will probably buy a better manual machine (if I buy Wise 2086) in few years, so do the wise adaptable to every machine ?

    Thanks
    ES5Pro/tech is always going to be a better machine. the operation is faster, smoother, quieter, and electronically more reliable. and you should expect that for 10x the price.

    however, having said that, i have side by side compared with the same electronic scale between a Protech and my WISE, the tension difference is only around 0.1~0.2lbs.

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