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  1. #273
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    Well.. it might be the PERSON who is sitting on the CART whipping the HORSE?
    I hope the whole thing will not come crashing down.

  2. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants View Post
    Well.. it might be the PERSON who is sitting on the CART whipping the HORSE?
    I hope the whole thing will not come crashing down.
    That sounds as cynical as Oldhand.

  3. #275
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default What happened..

    ..to all the chest thumping, high fiving, wide grinning moments between KKK & TBH??...see pic below from their Macau Open title, late last yr.....Aaah, those were the moments, esp. for all the KKK's & TBH's supporters...

    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-20-2008 at 12:20 AM.

  4. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by wood_22_chuck View Post
    Say that 100 million dollars suddenly appeared in the national treasury to be spent solely on badminton advancement, will Malaysia get the next World Championship trophy?

    What would you spend the money on? Scouting new talents? Scrapping all the current talents? Hiring new coaches? What?

    The problem is: How to lay down the infrastructure toward badminton supremacy? How do we get there?

    Although Pemuda has highlighted the problems, and given out solutions, it has gotten buried as all attention is being washed away by

    "my KKK, pity him"
    "i show support, what else?"
    "never mind lah, a true support, so support"
    "everyone mistake, so KKK mistake, give chance"
    "I know him personally, he no like dat one in real life"
    "I know the real story, but I will not tell you"

    The only thing I can really see that's really relevent to KKK is that he's physically capable of troughing, or reaching the bottom the hill, then scampering up to the top again. The question is: Will he?

    The facilities are there, an uber coach is present, the rewards are present (but prematurely dispensed) and fan idolation is present. So what's missing?

    And further more, since this thread is about Koo Kien Keat and Tan Boon Heong ... what about TBH?

    Is he as talented, more (less) talented, or is KKK "the man"?

    -dave
    Fan idolation is not really present in real life, not amongst most of them, he he.

    The suggestions pro & against has been presented many times in the other threads - including the "how do we get there" part. Some of the "experienced" Msian BCers of also know & have good ideas but they have decided to keep mum about it, why? Cos however loudly/repeatedly we present the solutions or ideas in a forum, it would not change things in real life.

    We can discuss till the end of time, NSC, BAM & the new Sports Minister will do what they like anyway. The experts are already discussing it quite often & their statements appear in the media, so often stimes, I get sick of it.
    Anyway,maybe you all in western country lack baddy news, so find the discussions interesting.
    __________________________________________________ _____________

    Back to KKK/TBH - TBH's take on things appeared in NST & Malay Mail today.
    And also in Sin Chew yesterday, I think.

  5. #277
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    I got the idea that obssed fans are sometimes annoying.Sorry.Absolutely annoying.
    Rationale is stil there,though.
    I wont be so dumd till to defend kkk's bigheaded behaviour,partying guy's style etc etc.whatever the issue have posted here.Question is,how sure are we?

    But something u will never understand is that when i have put kkk as someone in my life,I couldnt just say im not his fan bcoz he has changed now.
    Put urself in his shoes.U made mistakes.But will hope majority are still supporting u to do better in future.wont u?

    We are not in showbiz.Stop acting like we are gossiping in a market here.

  6. #278
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Ball View Post
    As usual, your thought processes do not allow you to think that there is this possibily which is more likely :

    The horse and cart begin to work well together in unison after they have fought each other and learn that one without the other will not win races.
    Um, my thought processes don't allow me to imagine success where it isn't likely or due.

    A repaired partnership is unlikely to succeed in any great measure.
    Look no further than Martin Lundgaard & Jens Eriksen to see why.

    Koo Kien Keat's & Tan Boon Heong's collective woes are largely of their own making... whether it be about communication, training or commitment.

    The way I see it, the draft horse prematurely believes it is the steed Pegasus!
    Meanwhile, the cart seems all set to be carted off to join another horse

  7. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    Um, my thought processes don't allow me to imagine success where it isn't likely or due.

    A repaired partnership is unlikely to succeed in any great measure.
    Look no further than Martin Lundgaard & Jens Eriksen to see why.

    Koo Kien Keat's & Tan Boon Heong's collective woes are largely of their own making... whether it be about communication, training or commitment.

    The way I see it, the draft horse prematurely believes it is the steed Pegasus!
    Meanwhile, the cart seems all set to be carted off to join another horse
    How sure are u that the repaired kkk/tbh wont make it?

  8. #280
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koo_fan View Post
    How sure are u that the repaired kkk/tbh wont make it?
    Um, I said it's 'unlikely'.
    No one would be more pleased than I if they are still able to make it.

  9. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    A repaired partnership is unlikely to succeed in any great measure.
    Look no further than Martin Lundgaard & Jens Eriksen to see why.

    Koo Kien Keat's & Tan Boon Heong's collective woes are largely of their own making... whether it be about communication, training or commitment.

    The way I see it, the draft horse prematurely believes it is the steed Pegasus!
    Meanwhile, the cart seems all set to be carted off to join another horse

    CTF/LWW is a good example on how a broken relationship repaired and better results been produced.

  10. #282
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    I don't really thinks this pair is not performing, it just that their opponents is exploiting their weakness. Their opponents are just more aware how they played, and when their opponents keep returning their shots this makes them nervous and started to making mistakes.

  11. #283
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    the debate will be endless.

    on one side, the naysayers. nobody is denying that what some of you are saying are right in some way or another. nobody agrees with non committed display of the players. nobody agrees with their forays (be it forced or voluntarily) into political campaigns. and easy as it seems for you guys to beat a man while he is down, he is after all human. he might be doomed to never be the kind of champion we would want him to be but believe me that he will be the one that stands to lose the most if that happens. you and i and all the other fans of badminton will simply move on to other new prospects and other new champions. what harm does it do to us fans except disappointment and regret that one more hope in the sports arena have come to naught.

    even if we put up the one million, and as some suggested, datukship and all that, they will not get it if they lose. so what is the harm? if they win, should they not receive anything? lest they start to rot like hafiz did. if that is the case, why dont we not spent a dime in sports at all. we have not shown any good results in sports, except maybe nicol david who are constantly winning. stop spending money on sports. save the taxpayers' money. but sport is a source of pride. a source of a common interest and shared by all countrymen.

    even football in malaysia still have fans. even though we are clearly nowhere near our days when mokhtar dahari and santokh singh and the others were around. why? because as fans some of us still hopes for the return of glory. will football win anything? heck no. i can say it myself. very very unlikely. are the fans who still support the football team dumb? that's very harsh and uncalled for. we all know it is not the players that is not performing per se but a combination of bad foundation, bad management, bad commitment and others. we all get that wood chuck. we all get the fact that not everthing is right and most probably everything will go wrong. but is it so wrong to support your local players even when the chips are down. are all the fans of all the losing sports team in the world dumb? are those supporting teams in the lower tier leagues dumb? even lower tiered teams can beat the best as shown in FA cup and many other sports.

    it is easy to support the champion. lin dan is a champion and the china team is the best in producing champions. it is not that easy to support players who manage to disappoint you at every turn. and they have shown that they could compete with the best which is worse because you start to expect them to win all the time. foolish as it may be, some people still have hope. unlikely as it may be, they could still make it through. it is not 100% that they will never bounce back. and if there's a chance, even if it is 0.00000001%, some of us would like to take it. thank you very much

    i believe this debate will continue. the critics (though right that you might be but harsh nonetheless) will continue to beat the drum of doom. so be it. i will agree to disagree with you. the die hard fans (blind as they may be to the shortcomings of the players they support but dedicated nonetheless) will continue their support. the in betweens (who will not excuse bad commitment but still look for hope in the future, like me ) will read the two opposing views and agree with some while disagreeing with others.

  12. #284
    Regular Member george@chongwei's Avatar
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    yeah, the most important thing is about the players..
    it depends on the players whether they will change their attitude or not..

  13. #285
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dato Asbullah View Post
    CTF/LWW is a good example on how a broken relationship repaired and better results been produced.
    Better results?

    If losing steam, crumbling, coming apart at the seams, collapsing, self-destructing and other such disappointing displays of weakness when armed with as many as 4 match-points are what we call 'better results', then I'm in perfect agreement with you.

    Although they are perhaps trying their best, for recent examples of how well the 'repaired partnership' of Lee Wan Wah and Choong Tan Fook is performing, please turn to the MD semifinals of the All England Open 2008, the Swiss Open 2008 and the China Open 2007... and the MD finals of the Singapore Open 2007

    In front of the home crowd, they even lost a decider 21-6 at the Malaysia Open 2008.

    21-6

    If reaching some pre-final stage is the best that Malaysia expects of its top shuttlers, then 'repaired partnerships' will do quite alright.

    However, if gold or a first place finish is in Malaysia's sights, it will take far more than just simple repair. Without a major attitude adjustment, it'd be exceedingly difficult for Koo Kien Keat and Tan Boon Heong to find the rhythm that elevated them professionally.

  14. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    However, if gold or a first place finish is in Malaysia's sights, it will take far more than just simple repair. Without a major attitude adjustment, it'd be exceedingly difficult for Koo Kien Keat and Tan Boon Heong to find the rhythm that elevated them professionally.
    i have to agree with this.

  15. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by azabaz_ipoh View Post
    i believe this debate will continue. the critics (though right that you might be but harsh nonetheless) will continue to beat the drum of doom. so be it. i will agree to disagree with you. the die hard fans (blind as they may be to the shortcomings of the players they support but dedicated nonetheless) will continue their support. the in betweens (who will not excuse bad commitment but still look for hope in the future, like me ) will read the two opposing views and agree with some while disagreeing with others.
    Fans are free to support whomever they want and whomever they place their hopes on. I don't think anyone is trying to deny anyone that luxury. Thing that concerns some fans is not the fans view on things but the players'.

    If the players took the same approach as the fans - ie. compete with only the hope of winning as their main weapon then they're in for a big world of hurt. The critics at least most of them aren't just being negative for the sake of being negative. They're voicing their displeasure over seeing great talent being wasted, great coaching squandered - its not so much the losses but all that potential going by the wayside. I'd argue that the critics are just as passionate and maybe even more so than those who just cling to "hope" because they're seeing a great opportunity here to achieve something no MAS tean has ever achieved -winning the OG gold put in jeopardy not from being defeated by an opposing team but from combined lack of commitment, arrogance, discipline and hard work.

    I rather support a lesser team even if they're the underdogs if they exhibited qualities I admire the most in sports - sportsmanship, commitment to the sport, humility, hard work, teamwork, fighting spirit, never say die attitude, professionalism, qualities that are becoming more and more foreign it seem from what I hear of the pairing of KKK/TBH.

    Better that than a team fully loaded with talent but are a bunch of primadonnas, uncommitted at all to their craft and to their teammates and coaches. Yes, they're human and will lose more than they win and they're not perfect human beings - noone is. But is it too much to expect from our heroes - the ones representing our country to strive to be the best they can be? KKK it seems is only relying on his god given talent and nothing more and maybe he feels that is enough to be a champion. I'm not saying its impossible. The guy is immensely talented.

    So I can become a millionaire if I struck the jackpot in the lottery therefore I buy a ticket every week based on that one hope. But some of us would rather get there thru hard work than rely only on hope. If I have one hope, it is that I hope those atheletes we place so much hope on isn't relying only on hope to get them by.

    At first I thought it was just rampant fan obsession but I think why most ppl haven't given up hope on KKK/TBH is because they're still MAS best chance for a MD gold medal however slim that chance may be thus they're willing to overlook their not-so-admirable qualities. In one way it reflects how desperate things have become. I wish there was another MS besides LCW who can be a legitimate gold contender so he wouldn't have to shoulder the entire burden of an entire nation. I wish also that there was another young rising top ranked MD team besides KKK/TBH but there isn't. So in some way I can understand why ppl are putting all their eggs in the KKK/TBH basket.


    ps..sorry for the overlong post >.< damn I tend to ramble alot..

  16. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    Fans are free to support whomever they want and whomever they place their hopes on. I don't think anyone is trying to deny anyone that luxury. Thing that concerns some fans is not the fans view on things but the players'.
    yeah, but some are mostly putting down the so called malaysia boleh fans. so i assume that they were targeting the fans and not just the players. to those who commented on the shortcomings of the players, they can see that even some fans are agreeing with what was being said. who is denying the bad performance of KKK/TBH? who is saying that they are not doing anything wrong? read again some of the postings and you can see that it is berating the fans who are dumb enough to still support the players that are losing. are they really just commenting on the players' attitude and bad performance?

    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    If the players took the same approach as the fans - ie. compete with only the hope of winning as their main weapon then they're in for a big world of hurt. The critics at least most of them aren't just being negative for the sake of being negative. They're voicing their displeasure over seeing great talent being wasted, great coaching squandered - its not so much the losses but all that potential going by the wayside. I'd argue that the critics are just as passionate and maybe even more so than those who just cling to "hope" because they're seeing a great opportunity here to achieve something no MAS tean has ever achieved -winning the OG gold put in jeopardy not from being defeated by an opposing team but from combined lack of commitment, arrogance, discipline and hard work.
    i agree that the players should not rely on hope to make it but must rely on hard work and commitment. i agree that having bad attitude will be their downfall. i do believe the critics are passionate too. but calling fans who still support losing team as dumb are nowhere near criticising the players' attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    I rather support a lesser team even if they're the underdogs if they exhibited qualities I admire the most in sports - sportsmanship, commitment to the sport, humility, hard work, teamwork, fighting spirit, never say die attitude, professionalism, qualities that are becoming more and more foreign it seem from what I hear of the pairing of KKK/TBH.
    i would too. underdogs who have immense fighting spirit always makes me wanna support them. and yes, KKK/TBH are having trouble with all the qualities you mentioned. but i would like to see them try and turn that around and be the players we want them to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    Better that than a team fully loaded with talent but are a bunch of primadonnas, uncommitted at all to their craft and to their teammates and coaches. Yes, they're human and will lose more than they win and they're not perfect human beings - noone is. But is it too much to expect from our heroes - the ones representing our country to strive to be the best they can be? KKK it seems is only relying on his god given talent and nothing more and maybe he feels that is enough to be a champion. I'm not saying its impossible. The guy is immensely talented.
    that is not too much to expect from our players who represent our country. we as a fan can demand that they do the best that they can. relying on talent alone will only take you so far. as someone have mentioned taufik as an example. i think it was oldhand. that talent alone without all out hardwork saw taufik not competing for the highest honours on a regular basis as lin dan is.

    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    So I can become a millionaire if I struck the jackpot in the lottery therefore I buy a ticket every week based on that one hope. But some of us would rather get there thru hard work than rely only on hope. If I have one hope, it is that I hope those atheletes we place so much hope on isn't relying only on hope to get them by.
    i hope so too...

    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    At first I thought it was just rampant fan obsession but I think why most ppl haven't given up hope on KKK/TBH is because they're still MAS best chance for a MD gold medal however slim that chance may be thus they're willing to overlook their not-so-admirable qualities. In one way it reflects how desperate things have become. I wish there was another MS besides LCW who can be a legitimate gold contender so he wouldn't have to shoulder the entire burden of an entire nation. I wish also that there was another young rising top ranked MD team besides KKK/TBH but there isn't. So in some way I can understand why ppl are putting all their eggs in the KKK/TBH basket.
    only a small number is overlooking the shrtcomings. most fans can see it as it is. it is just that they decided to continue supporting. and decided to not lose hope. i have to fully agree with you that if we have more than one outstanding MS and more than one outstanding MD, we would not see this kind situation. which malaysian wouldn't want more than one serious contender? do i want other players who could win like LCW and KKK/TBH did? of course! do i want to see the juniors improve and be at the same level as the top players in the world. absolutely! do we have that option now? i guess not.

    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    ps..sorry for the overlong post >.< damn I tend to ramble alot..
    i tend to ramble a lot too.

  17. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by morphy View Post
    Fans are free to support whomever they want and whomever they place their hopes on. I don't think anyone is trying to deny anyone that luxury. Thing that concerns some fans is not the fans view on things but the players'.

    ...........At first I thought it was just rampant fan obsession but I think why most ppl haven't given up hope on KKK/TBH is because they're still MAS best chance for a MD gold medal however slim that chance may be thus they're willing to overlook their not-so-admirable qualities. In one way it reflects how desperate things have become....

    .
    The other paragraphs, Aza already replied.

    LOL, that's interesting, the "rampant obsession" is only seen here, in real life, nope - he he, I'm risking being flamed yet again since some still think the bulk of Msia fans are "blind supporters" category.
    I've said many times before, in real life, 80% Msian fans are in the "critics" category, in the sense of "Msia want to win ah, no hope wan lah".
    And there are those, like Aza said, who think the remaining fans who are still supporting are downright dumbos, who dont see the facts, having blinders, sreamers etc,etc.

    There's another spectrum where non Msians said why Msians are so critical & negative, and lump all fans to be in the critics category.

    Of course we know their shortcomings, , how can we not, when it's plastered all over the media so often. The rest of it already posted bf.
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 03-21-2008 at 03:44 AM.

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