LD vs. LCW (unforced errors)

[Birdwood]

While you all are discussing this "unforced error" thingy, Misbun said to one of the malay press that LCW losses to CJ & LD in Europe was due to change of styles when playing LCW. CJ & LD changed their usual style to counter LCW. BCL's style remained the same, from what Misbun observed in BCL matches, although LCW didnt meet BCL in AE & SO.
Therefore, Misbun said he & LCW would find strategies to counter these "new" styles. Of course Misbun wouldnt mention what those strategies are or what exactly CJ & LD's new strategies that he saw.

You all can take a look at the vids again & see what Misbun meant.

If Misbun saw CJ and LD changed playing styles against LCW. Would it be possible for him to tell LCW what to do during the matches? I would image that's not something hard to do and that's why coaches were there outside of court

[eaglehelang]

If Misbun saw CJ and LD changed playing styles against LCW. Would it be possible for him to tell LCW what to do during the matches? I would image that's not something hard to do and that's why coaches were there outside of court

Yes, either the strategies Misbun told LCW on the day didnt work, or LCW didnt execute them effectively. So, basically they need to think of strategies that work. CJ didnt manage to win over LCW in just 1 day, but months. Same as LCW didnt manage to win a match over LD until some time.

Misbun also saw LHI with Li Mao there could read LCW's game, and said must find strategies to counter it. Although LCW won the match against LHI in MO 2008, on another day, LHI could have won.

[cooler]

Well, just watch LD vs. LHI. LHI used the whole first game to test LD and adjust the form of himself. He did very well in the following two games. You can also watch LD vs. PSH. PSH didn't try any risky shots, and it turned out that LD was not in top form that day (according to TSF, LD was not in bad form either). LCW panicked from the very start, and he lost without learning anything.

You are talking like LD is God.

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

[cooler]

Yes, either the strategies Misbun told LCW on the day didnt work, or LCW didnt execute them effectively. So, basically they need to think of strategies that work. CJ didnt manage to win over LCW in just 1 day, but months. Same as LCW didnt manage to win a match over LD until some time.

Misbun also saw LHI with Li Mao there could read LCW's game, and said must find strategies to counter it. Although LCW won the match against LHI in MO 2008, on another day, LHI could have won.

u make it sound so simple, just read your opponents like a book and execute the right plan. Well, i can read LD too but the problem is my skills lack kryptonite potency and hence my execution would fail too.

[pjswift]

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

Cooler, you're normally clearer than this on KO:
1. The line judges were well neutralised by the umpire.
2. LD held 4 matchpoints but actually had more than 6 opportunities to win the match yet couldn't because LHI was mentally too strong for him.
3. Looking at the match as a whole, LHI outsmarted LD.(because physically LHI couldn't match LD)
Now when it came to AE and SWO,it's LHI's 3rd and 4th tournaments so he lost to fatigue and his lucky opponents got the credit.

[eaglehelang]

u make it sound so simple, just read your opponents like a book and execute the right plan. Well, i can read LD too but the problem is my skills lack kryptonite potency and hence my execution would fail too.

Ha ha, originally I just posted Misbun's said to the malay press. I did say it took months before CJ beat LCW, I know it's hard. Summary mah.
You all can interpret for yourselves what Misbun meant by CJ & LD "new" playing style when they are against LCW.

[Birdwood]

Ha ha, originally I just posted Misbun's said to the malay press. I did say it took months before CJ beat LCW, I know it's hard. Summary mah.
You all can interpret for yourselves what Misbun meant by CJ & LD "new" playing style when they are against LCW.

Just felt a little odd Misbun said that as the main cause of LCW's loss. I don't know how often coaches gave this kind reasoning. Usually you change your play as the opponent changes his. It's all evolving during the match. There are no secrete weapons except one's technical ability or the condition he/she is in that day. Adjustments can be made, but they are not the deciding factors in my opinion compared to the fundamental ability to play better overall. That's why we will never beat LD for sure

[ye333]

I didn't forget what you said. I disagree with what you said. If one player changed his whole game plan because one or two overruled bad calls, I would say he is mentally weak -- Because discarding your effective gameplan usually costs you more points. I don't that LD is mentally that weak.

Furthermore, what I said is LHI did very well in the following two games. Just watch the games. You can't deny that LHI did very well in games 2 and 3. His shots are effective in moving LD around and his attack/defence are good. So even if he lost, he would lose closely. Also notice that although LD knew what Korean line judges are like (in other words, he knew bad calls are highly likely to happen -- what he surely didn't know is that most of them will be overruled ), he made a show at the very first bad call. I would say it's all mind game. LD is not some newbee who would panick and change his whole game-plan because of a few overruled line calls.

FYI, LHI said himself that he panicked in AG SF after the 3:21 first game but stayed calm in KO08, and that made a big difference in his performance in later games.

Of course it is possible that one player did well against tough opponents but badly against lesser ones. You prepare better when facing tougher ones. And that's why there are dark horses.

Finally LHI out in AE08 and SW08 doesn't mean he cannot beat LD. PSH lost to all kinds of players, but he beated LD fair and square in China.

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

[ye333]

What are you trying to argue here? LD is God and it's not possible for others to beat him?

The difference between you and LCW is pretty clear. You lack the necessary skills to beat LD but LCW has them.

u make it sound so simple, just read your opponents like a book and execute the right plan. Well, i can read LD too but the problem is my skills lack kryptonite potency and hence my execution would fail too.

[Birdwood]

Cooler, you're normally clearer than this on KO:
1. The line judges were well neutralised by the umpire.
2. LD held 4 matchpoints but actually had more than 6 opportunities to win the match yet couldn't because LHI was mentally too strong for him.
3. Looking at the match as a whole, LHI outsmarted LD.(because physically LHI couldn't match LD)
Now when it came to AE and SWO,it's LHI's 3rd and 4th tournaments so he lost to fatigue and his lucky opponents got the credit.

I would not draw that conclusion so easily. The umpire reversed 3 biased linecalls, but that did not stop the linesmen from carrying out another biased one at the very end of the match. Were they neutralized or deterred from doing it in any way? The answer was: No.

[ye333]

Misbun's words seem like "excuses" to me.

Let' review the 1st half of the 1st game. Bold: LCW's unforced errors.

1st pt(0:0): LD 1/4 smash and LCW returned it into the net.

2nd pt(0:1): LCW cross-court fast-slice-drop >1 feet out.

3rd pt(0:2): LCW straight slow-(slice?)-drop 1/2 feet out.

4th pt(0:3): I think this point reveals something. LD did a very good flick serve and get a very weak half-court return from LCW. However LCW returned well LD's smash (first in this match) and finally forced LD to play a quick backhand which went out.

5th pt(1:3): LD great deceptive push to the deep forehand corner.

6th pt(1:4): LD's net too good for LCW to kill.

7th pt(1:5): LCW returned very well LD's first power smash and managed to get a very weak reply after a few drives. But hit the shuttle into the net.

8th pt(1:6): LCW's punch clear to LD's deep backhand corner (Note: this is the kind of shot LD likes most) intercepted by LD and LCW failed to return the sudden smash.

9th pt(1:7): LCW great return of serve, but LD finally managed to make an OK return. LCW's push to deep corner was out.

10th pt(1:8): LCW forehand half-smash out.

11th pt(1:9): LCW horrible return of serve killed by LD.

12th pt(1:10): LCW great follow-up of smash.

13th pt(2:10): LCW good follow-up of smash but cross-court net-play into the net.

Frankly, I don't see any "strategy" can force LCW to make errors like those above.

Furthermore, I think LCW clearly out-played LD in the 4th, 7th, and 12th points; LD clearly out-played LCW in the 5th, 6th, and 8th points. So at least for the first half of the first game, I don't think LD's "new strategy" is the main contributor to the 11:2 scoreline.

Just felt a little odd Misbun said that as the main cause of LCW's loss. I don't know how often coaches gave this kind reasoning. Usually you change your play as the opponent changes his. It's all evolving during the match. There are no secrete weapons except one's technical ability or the condition he/she is in that day. Adjustments can be made, but they are not the deciding factors in my opinion compared to the fundamental ability to play better overall. That's why we will never beat LD for sure

[ye333]

I think the key is whether LD changed his game plan right after the 1st or the 2nd overruled bad calls. I don't think he did.

The last call may affect the result of the match, but it doesn't change the fact that LD and LHI were pretty much evenly matched in games 2 and 3.

I would not draw that conclusion so easily. The umpire reversed 3 biased linecalls, but that did not stop the linesmen from carrying out another biased one at the very end of the match. Were they neutralized or deterred from doing it in any way? The answer was: No.

[Birdwood]

I think the key is whether LD changed his game plan right after the 1st or the 2nd overruled bad calls. I don't think he did.

The last call may affect the result of the match, but it doesn't change the fact that LD and LHI were pretty much evenly matched in games 2 and 3.

I agree that LHI and LD both played well and the match could go either way if they were just left to play by themselves in KO 08 MSF.

[ctjcad]

Just watched Swiss Final again. The statistical result is interesting.
..

...
Let' review the 1st half of the 1st game. Bold: LCW's unforced errors.
...

..i've gotta hand it to you, ye333, for taking the extra time in reviewing the match!....Or maybe, since we're in sort of a lull, with no major BWF baddy actions to follow, you've taken some time to re-watch and entertain us..
Oh, btw, not sure if you have the time or not, but do you mind taking a look at my badminton playing video and critique my play. I know you'll probably fall asleep, but if you can point out, the same way like you did after watching LD vs. LCW's video, where i made my unforced errors and see if i possibly might've lost my confidence in my play...

[eaglehelang]

Just felt a little odd Misbun said that as the main cause of LCW's loss. I don't know how often coaches gave this kind reasoning. Usually you change your play as the opponent changes his. It's all evolving during the match. There are no secrete weapons except one's technical ability or the condition he/she is in that day. Adjustments can be made, but they are not the deciding factors in my opinion compared to the fundamental ability to play better overall. That's why we will never beat LD for sure

LD is a thinking player, just depends whether LCW could response to the change fast enuf. But in AE against CJ, LCW was slower to get his act together, before he could unleash his arsenal, CJ already won.

Misbun's words seem like "excuses" to me.


Frankly, I don't see any "strategy" can force LCW to make errors like those above.

So at least for the first half of the first game, I don't think LD's "new strategy" is the main contributor to the 11:2 scoreline.

He, he, 'excuses' eh? Misbun is smart. DUring LCW told the Chinese radio station he was exhausted during SO Finals, he tried but could not bring his game up against LD.
That's the player's reason, if he said that to print media, it would have been seen as 'excuse', worse excuse than the "new style" reason Misbun gave.

[Birdwood]

...
He, he, 'excuses' eh? Misbun is smart. DUring LCW told the Chinese radio station he was exhausted during SO Finals, he tried but could not bring his game up against LD.
That's the player's reason, if he said that to print media, it would have been seen as 'excuse', worse excuse than the "new style" reason Misbun gave.

Most of us saw the matches and thought LCW had a bad day or "off" day. He did not play well at his best, probably due to tiredness. I don't think tiredness or old injury are bad excuses, very reasonable to me. But when coaches came up with an excuse like "new strategy" from opponents, it makes me wonder what were the coaches doing during the matches? It's their job to help the players get through tough situations. Players depend on coaches to give them sound advice, courage, and confidence to fight on and win. I hope this "new strategy" thing from Misbun was merely a media talk afterward

[Oldhand]

u keep forgeting what i have said before in other threads. It was the line judges who beat LD at the 08 KO, not LHI. I ask u this, do u know any effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line judging?? So, u r saying LHI can read super Dan but LHI can't read some lower level players as we all know LHI was out on round 1 at the following AE and Swiss Open.

A simple, effective and legal tactical strategy to counter biased line-judging is:
Don't aim for the lines

The pros are skilled enough to hit with a high degree of accuracy.
Shift the target area inwards by a few centimetres and no line-judge can get you

PS: The more brazen calls (like the wide one against Flandy & Vita) will simply get overruled as the line-judge's 'mistake' would be too obvious.