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  1. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Yes, I believe top Asian players use more wrist. The wrist needs to be cocked back for almost all strokes to preserve the possibility of deception...
    This is hardly a new concept in the West. Winning Badminton, written in the early 1950s by Gustavson and Davidson speaks of cocking the wrist for nearly all shots used in badminton.

  2. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    ... From the 1940s and even up to the 1970s Asians and the Danes were the only players with strong backhands, which requires an excellent execution of the cocking and uncocking of the wrist in a timely manner. Americans of their period had essentially no backhand.
    Can't say that I am aware of the quality of BH strokes of North American players in that time period -- didn't pick up the sport til the late 1970s myself. However, I am aware that a number of players from the US were very prominent in the international badminton scene for the 1940s thru the early 1970s. They must have had some semblance of a BH to compete at that level.

  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    and China (the latter beat Denmark's Sven Pri 15-0, 15-0) ...
    Beating Sven Pri 15-0 and 15-0 Wow, must be some super player.

    I showed to my coach a book on badminton by an English coach - when the author mentioned in the book 'cocking the wrist', he asked my how I understood the description of the technique. His comment, 'we do things a bit differently'...

    When I learned badminton, my coach did not emphasize the wrist, but fingers.

  4. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    Beating Sven Pri 15-0 and 15-0 Wow, must be some super player.
    This was along time ago when Denmark went to China to test out the mysterious Chinese players they called "The Thing" and gang. China was then banned by the then IBF. These early "Chinese" players were the pioneers of today's Chinese dominance in the game. They were in fact Indonesian Chinese who fled Indonesia because of the unrest there. Almost all the Chinese singles lineup could beat Sven Pri, and beat him very badly. This friend of mine was a team mate of "The Thing".
    He later became a good friend of Sven Pri who unfortunately took his own life.
    My friend told me the reason why they could beat the Danes so easily was that the Chinese were hardcore professionals, even at that time, whilst the Danes were amateurs who had other jobs.

  5. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    Beating Sven Pri 15-0 and 15-0 Wow, must be some super player.
    If at all, that has to be Tang Xianhu
    (Well, noticed taneepak's post just now )

    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I showed to my coach a book on badminton by an English coach - when the author mentioned in the book 'cocking the wrist', he asked my how I understood the description of the technique. His comment, 'we do things a bit differently'...

    When I learned badminton, my coach did not emphasize the wrist, but fingers.
    It's all in the fingers.
    You are my man, sifu

  6. #23
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    This ex-China player friend is also a good friend of Malaysia's Ng Boon Bee, whom he admired very much. Malaysia also sent their team to China in great secrecy. Like the Danes they were thrashed by the Chinese. Another Malaysian friend, Lim Say Hup, a one-time All England mens doubles winner with Teh Kew San, blamed their humiliating loss to the Chinese on the type of shuttlecocks used by the Chinese (Aeroplane). I think Malaysians tend to find too many excuses for their losses.

  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    This was along time ago when Denmark went to China to test out the mysterious Chinese players they called "The Thing" and gang. China was then banned by the then IBF. These early "Chinese" players were the pioneers of today's Chinese dominance in the game. They were in fact Indonesian Chinese who fled Indonesia because of the unrest there. Almost all the Chinese singles lineup could beat Sven Pri, and beat him very badly. This friend of mine was a team mate of "The Thing".
    He later became a good friend of Sven Pri who unfortunately took his own life.
    My friend told me the reason why they could beat the Danes so easily was that the Chinese were hardcore professionals, even at that time, whilst the Danes were amateurs who had other jobs.
    I like your way of telling stories. I believe it was China who first paid a visit to Denmark back in 1966, with Tang Xinfu leading the squad. At that time China were a bunch of unknown players and Denmark did not take them seriously. At that time Denmark had the great Erland Kops, regarded the best player if I am not mistaken.

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I like your way of telling stories. I believe it was China who first paid a visit to Denmark back in 1966, with Tang Xinfu leading the squad. At that time China were a bunch of unknown players and Denmark did not take them seriously. At that time Denmark had the great Erland Kops, regarded the best player if I am not mistaken.
    Earland Kops was also badly beaten. There is some reference to this one-sided scores in Oon Choong Teik's memoires somewhere in this forum.

  9. #26
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    Sorry guys, thought I started it up, may I suggest that we stick to the subject: Wrist.

    In the other thread I refer to there is a link for an article on some research in the field, the conclusion was that Wrist is for no good!

    So why do you keep believing in it? And also what about the grip...?

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
    Sorry guys, thought I started it up, may I suggest that we stick to the subject: Wrist.

    In the other thread I refer to there is a link for an article on some research in the field, the conclusion was that Wrist is for no good!

    So why do you keep believing in it? And also what about the grip...?
    We believe in the wrist because all top Asian players use their wrist! As I have said earlier, the source of all power must come from leverage. In badminton, leverage comes from the backswing, which can be a large one or a small one like when playing a net shot. Wrist snap, which is the motion of the wrist from cocking to uncocking and then impact, can have variable speed and variable directional and angle changes, by itself has very limited power. Pronation by itself has even less power. Just raise your playing arm up and then simply pronate your forearm but without using any swing of the arm, how are you going to hit a shot when the only motion is like screwing a screw-driver anti-clockwise? At least a wrist snap, without any arm swing, will be able to hit the shuttle albeit with little power. Pronation by itself is merely screwing the air.
    Merely focusing on pronation of the forearm can be misleading because in the end you will find players play, in former world singls champion Han Jian's words, "without wristwork, your game would become plain and predictable. You would not be able to vary the pace and angle of your shots or change them at the last instant. Sometimes, when you are under heavy pressure, certain shots can only be saved if you have wristwork because you neither have the time nor space to swing your arm".
    BTW, if you use the wrist snap properly, which roughly corresponds to the cycle from flexion of the forearm/cocking of the wrist to start of straightening of the forearm/uncocking of the wrist to impact, the arm will automatically go into pronation mode. Herein lies the difference. In Asia, it is the wrist that "controls" direction, change of pace, angle, and timing, and at the same time the straightening of the arm automatically pronates, otherwise you will end up cutting the shuttle racquet edgewise.

  11. #28
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    maybe wrist and forearm pro/supination play together:
    Hold like forehand overhead stroke with raket, always turn forearm a little bit back (supination) for forehand overhead preparation. then perform the turning of forearm (here: pronation) in
    3 different stroke variations:
    first): wrist bent to palm side (wrist cocked like end of forehand shot) from beginning:
    little leverage, small slow stroke

    second): wrist neutral (not cocked or uncocked)

    third): wrist bent to back of hand side (wrist uncocked): from my experience biggest leverage and fast stroke


    in ("real", means proximal) wrist joint: only 2 kind of movement possible:
    bent/extend
    put thumb side near forearm (radialduktion)/ put small finger side to forearm (ulnarduktion)
    not: rotation of hand when forearm is stionary

    so i conclude: in preparation for forehand overhead strokes you also need radialduktion ?? (for make use of maximal big way for power before shot?)

  12. #29
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    You cannot play shots with a locked wrist. Almost all badminton shots have a backswing for the required leverage. At the end of the backswing and as you start the forward swing, you cock your wrist (wrist now at about right angle to forearm) and your elbow is bent (flexion). As your foreward swing goes foreward, the wrist is then uncocked as you straighten your forearm. At the start of the foreward swing your racquet will touch the small of your back edgewise. Notice that the straightening of the arm has very important motions:
    1. The racquet edge from a knife-like direction is turned inwards to be square to the net when you start the backswing and move foreward for shuttle impact. Westerners call this turning of the wrist pronation.
    2. The cycle of forearm flexion to extension corresponds to the cocking and uncocking of the wrist.
    3. When the wrist is cocked there is an angle, somewhere near 45% between the wrist/racquet and the forearm. When the wrist is uncocked and at shuttle impact, the wrist/racquet and forearm becomes one long sword.
    4. The wrist has moved from an angle to a locked staright line-this is called wrist snap.
    5. This movement of the wrist is controllable by the player. You can vary the timing. Ever heard about holding your shots? It can also vary its angle. It can also change directions. It can increase the power of your smash because an increase in wrist speed is more devastating than an increase in arm speed. Even in tennis, can you see the difference between Nadal's handspeed (closer to the wrist) than Federal's (closer to the shoulder/arm)? In a nutshell, wristwork has deception possibilities and power.

  13. #30
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    Oh dear. Another thread arguing about wrist vs. arm.

    As usual, advocates of the wrist-is-everything theory fail to distinguish between power generation and power transfer.

    The wrist clearly has an important role to play in badminton, but anyone believing it is the primary source of power needs their head examined.

    • Arm/shoulder muscles: important in generating power.
    • Wrist: important in allowing efficient transfer of power.

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue View Post
    so i conclude: in preparation for forehand overhead strokes you also need radialduktion ?? (for make use of maximal big way for power before shot?)
    Yes, radial and ulnar deviation occur at the wrist joint to control the moment arm of the racquet. When pronation occurs at the forearm, the wrist needs to be radially deviated (i.e cocked back) to transfer this rotational power into the racquet. Later in the stroke, some ulnar deviation might occur to maximize reach.

    I think it's silly for people to make a big deal calling it a "pronation/supination shot" vs a "wrist shot". For one thing, if the elbow is the point of reference then pronation and supination cause rotation of the wrist relative to the elbow. Add in other wrist actions, particularly the lateral deviations, and you have a complex movement occuring at the wrist. For simplicity, we call this "wrist action" and it's pretty easy for people to understand.

    It makes me wonder why no one ever tries to break down movement at the other joints - the shoulder for example. You've got internal rotation, downward rotation and overhead abduction going on there, yet most people just call it shoulder action.

  15. #32
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    Somewhere in the "Badminton Tournament sharing video" forum you can find 3 dvds of "badminton clinic" by Zhao Jianhua, a former world singles champion and one of the all time greats, deceptive and exciting. Just look at the way he uses his wrist.

  16. #33
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    i thought supination and pronation gave your shot a direction and made it less predictable

  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by saifii View Post
    i thought supination and pronation gave your shot a direction and made it less predictable
    Nope. Forearm rotations are an efficient means to accelerate the racket, especially on power shots. Pronation is used for power on FH shots while supination is used for power on BH shots.

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