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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
    Oh dear. Another thread arguing about wrist vs. arm.

    As usual, advocates of the wrist-is-everything theory fail to distinguish between power generation and power transfer.

    The wrist clearly has an important role to play in badminton, but anyone believing it is the primary source of power needs their head examined.
    • Arm/shoulder muscles: important in generating power.
    • Wrist: important in allowing efficient transfer of power.
    Well put, Gollum. I pretty much agree with this. I'd add, like I had mentioned previously, that the fingers also have an important role for many shots. Quite often, the wrist action follows what is initiated by the fingers.

    On some shots, where very little forearm rotation is employed, the finger action will often get the racket moving more effectively than wrist action. For instance, the basic (not brushed) net kill will often use very little forearm rotation. The wrist can be cocked or set to position the racket. However to get the racket moving forward, finger action is employed -- this will result in wrist action.


    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Wrist snap is very real...
    Perhaps the term, wrist snap, is used differently in HK than is used in North America, the UK and other English speaking countries. The phrase, wrist snap, is rather vague & misleading -- it does not really have an exact meaning when used to denote wrist actions in badminton & many other sports. However, it connotations, or what it implies is what makes it an unsuitable terminology.

    Perhaps "wrist action" is a more suitable phrase than "wrist snap".

    Wrist snap implies that the wrist is used as a primary power generator. For many shots, it also suggest that the wrist ends up in an exaggerated flexed position in order to produce a powerful shot. Quite often, but not always, the wrist has more of a passive role in the power (kinetic) chain -- it is used to transfer power rather than initiate it.

    This is not to say that the wrist does not play an important role in most badminton shots. The wrist actions that you speak of in several of your posts are very real -- they play an important role in deception as well as a conduit for transferring power. However, to characterize these actions as wrist snap is what I suggested (in post #5) as misleading.

    Note that the concept of wrist snap is not new. This terminology has been used in badminton and many other sports for more than half a century. It has been used for tennis serves (and overheads), baseball swings, and golf swings to name a few. However, this terminology has lead many beginners, intermediates, and even some advanced athletes astray. I have seen many tennis players finish their service motions with an extreme wrist flexion because they were told to snap the wrist.

    Fortunately, many elite athletes develop proper swings in spite of coaches pushing the idea of wrist snap. In badminton, as well as these other sports, the idea of wrist snap has come under fire as experts in biomechanics have attempted to shed light on the way the wrist is really used.

  2. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly View Post
    On some shots, where very little forearm rotation is employed, the finger action will often get the racket moving more effectively than wrist action.
    Agreed, and this is an important point.

    Perhaps "wrist action" is a more suitable phrase than "wrist snap".
    I think the term "wrist snap" is actually quite good.

    The problem occurs when coaches, emphasising wrist snap, pass on a misleading idea of technique to their players. Coaches often become obsessed with one part of a technique; consequently, they paint a distorted picture of its overall role.

    In extreme cases, coaches will say things like: "Your smash speed has nothing to do with the arm. It's all in the wrist." This kind of statement, though well-intentioned, is grossly misleading.

  3. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
    ...

    I think the term "wrist snap" is actually quite good...
    I'm baffled yet again. Are we playing the "contrary game" or perhaps "devil's advocate"? I ask because I recall several posts in the not too distant past where you objected to this terminology. More than once you referred to the phrase, "wrist snap", as being vague (and pernicious).

    The problem with this terminology is that it tends to lead students astray -- it often elicits an incorrect response. Like badminton, "wrist snap" has been used in tennis by many coaches in the past when talking about serves and overhead smashes. Altho' it is still used by some tennis coaches, many modern coaches avoid using the term very much, if at all. For most of my tennis students, I never utter the phrase. However, for a small percentage of students, I do use the term -- in order to elicit a desired response from these students -- sometimes an incorrect or flawed instruction is needed to produce the desired results from some students that are not quite getting the correct action.

    If you ask most tennis players or badminton players what is/are primary the difference(s) between the 2 sports, they will invariably say that badminton is very "wristy" or relies on "wrist snap" to execute shots. They sometimes will say that tennis employs a locked wrist. (While the wrist remains firm for part of the groundstroke swing, it does not stay locked). Note that overhead strokes in tennis and badminton use the forearm and wrist in very similar fashions. Yet, when asked, more people will be familiar with the term "wrist snap" that with the concept of "pronation".

    Check out the following posts. I would agree 100% with your comments in these previous posts:

    badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=362912
    badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=366598

  4. #38
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    Wrist snap and wrist whip are terms and techniques that are still very much in vogue in Asia.

  5. #39
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  6. #40
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    hmm, now I am a bit confused, maybe my english is not good enough (sorry) , there is cocked and uncocked? there is leverage? whip/snap and action? Do we talk about the same thing?

    As I have understood, looking at the link Volcom posted, there is nothing of the above mentioned words only rotation of the forearm, and for me the wrist is locked to the forearm, with a specific angle/position between hand and forearm. The question is what is the optimal angle/position for transferring power...?

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Earland Kops was also badly beaten. There is some reference to this one-sided scores in Oon Choong Teik's memoires somewhere in this forum.
    Guys, sorry for being off-topic but just to reply mr Taneepak...

    [This was along time ago when Denmark went to China to test out the mysterious Chinese players they called "The Thing" and gang. China was then banned by the then IBF....]

    You did not get my reply... I mentioned the Chinese players first visited Denmark back in 1966 and their 3rd player Chen Tianchang beat the great Erland Kops... so when the Danish players visited China later, they knew very well what level of players they were going to meet ...

    By the way, wristwork is not = wrist to my understanding.

  8. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly View Post
    I'm baffled yet again. Are we playing the "contrary game" or perhaps "devil's advocate"? I ask because I recall several posts in the not too distant past where you objected to this terminology. More than once you referred to the phrase, "wrist snap", as being vague (and pernicious).
    For one thing, I am allowed to change my mind. Which is the greater folly: to deviate from your previously expressed views, thus implying inconsistency; or to be so concerned with the consistency of your dogma, that you refuse to consider new ideas?

    I shall not attempt to prove my absolute constancy, since that would only prove that my mind had turned to stone. Nevertheless, I'm not quite as fickle as you may imagine (although I may have mellowed in my invective ).

    I still believe that the term "wrist snap" can be very harmful. In particular:
    • Coaches may emphasise "wrist snap" to such an extent that players acquire a grossly distorted concept of the role of the wrist.
    • Coaches, enchanted by the "wrist snap" talisman, may fail to understand that power mainly comes from the arm/shoulder.
    In particular, it's essential that players are not encouraged, by the description of "wrist snap", to persist in panhandling. They need to start using their arm properly.

    When I say that the term "wrist snap" is quite good, I mean that it is good for the purpose of characterising the "wristy" component of technique. I mean that "wrist action" is not really any better than "wrist snap".

    I quite often find myself explaining (with a demonstration, of course) that the half-smash action often involves a snappy movement, a flick of the wrist. I am also at pains to explain that, although the wrist and fingers are involved in the movement, the power is coming mainly from the arm -- so they understand that they do need to use their arm too!

    (As an aside: note that this applies to "finger power" too. "Finger power" actually comes from the upper arm, so it can be just as misleading to say "the power for net kills comes from your fingers" as it is to say "the power for smashes comes from your wrist". )

    "Wrist snap", "wrist action", and "wrist movement" are all perfectly acceptable terms when speaking of the wrist movement in badminton. The problem is not with the terms, but with misleading coaching that uses those terms.

    There's nothing wrong with teaching "wrist snap" as a part of technique. The problem occurs when you over-emphasise its role, with misleading statements such as "it's all in the wrist"; or "don't use arm power; use wrist power".

    A good demonstration goes a long way. And so does a deliberately bad demonstration (showing them how not to do it).
    Last edited by Gollum; 08-02-2008 at 05:49 AM.

  9. #43
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    I am still not sure whether I have understand how you believe the movements should be, any videos?

    Why use a term that you know is easily misunderstood?

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
    Why use a term that you know is easily misunderstood?
    Because the potential for misunderstanding is inherent not in the term, but in the action itself.

    If you explain the action well, then the term will be suitable. If you explain it badly, then the term will be unsuitable. The term takes on the colours of your explanation.

  11. #45
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    If you want to see really devastating wrist snap smashing in action, I suggest you watch Lin Dan's Olympics matches against Ng Wei and Peter Gade. Todate, Lin Dan is the only player who uses this stroke, to deadly effect. The wrist snap smash was so fast, with almost no arm movement, I doubt Peter Gade or Ng Wei saw the shuttle at all before it landed.

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    Is this the stroke where he takes a short hop in the air, with his arm raised in the air, slams the shuttle down crosscourt with a quick forearm/wrist motion?

  13. #47
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    Where can get the apacs nanotec 700ltd?

  14. #48
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    Off topic question;
    I am a badminton player. I have just recently registered myself to play recreational tennis.. Will it have any effect on my badminton strokes?
    Since in tennis arm power is used more than wrist..

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