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  1. #18
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    hey, here is a thought, how about 3x11 for all matches?

  2. #19
    Regular Member adelina76's Avatar
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    Default Re: *** discrimination?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Kwun's statement on the length of the match may have more truth than people realise.

    One of the aims of the IBF is to try and bring more grass-roots players into watching badminton. Sure, I can agree the women's/mxd game is more tactically interesting. But would anybody say that the average person on the street would understand this from watching a two hour ladies doubles match?

    I very much doubt the average person would understand why a lady would play LD for two hours and then be exhausted for her mxd doubles the next day.

    In your 'average' club, the fewer points system actually leads to more rotation of games thereby enhancing the variety of games with different players - a plus point for the social aspect of the game and grass roots players.

    If badminton does NOT get any viewing time on TV it might be better to have a greater proportion of viewing time spent on MS, MD. Then for the time that is allocated to the ladies' disciplines, at least we would have a chance of seeing the whole match rather than edited highlights

    BTW, I haven't seen a two hour men's doubles match before so I wonder which match is Adelina referring to.

    And on the subject of *** discrimination, aren't the men being discriminated against by having to play longer?
    First of all..the 2 hours LD match that Kwun is referring too is probably a one-off and it is not something I believe you should quote as the normal or general length of WD. Cheung, I didn't say I've seen a MD that went for more than 2 hours..I said surely there must have been or at least close to 2 hours..however, the actual length of time is not the issue here, but rather the fairness of it all.

    In other words Cheung, if it is the commercial viewing time that is of concern, I agree wholeheartedly with what Kwun suggested, why not have all the games reduced to 11x3 format? Besides from what you are saying in terms of 'the average people not being able to appreciate the tactical strokes from watching long WD (I note you didn't mention XD here), are you implying that the average person will appreciate MS and MD more than WD and XD? So you are saying that the general public would prefer to watch men play than women play. If you are implying that, that is definitely a discrimination.

    The other thing you have to remember is..other than the viewing time issue, such IBF rule is binding on all badminton tournaments which meant we, as competitive players are also bound by this rule and as a player, I can tell you it is not fun having your doubles match reduced from 15 to 11 points.. So anyway, summary of all this is:

    1) The best way to ensure fairness to both men and women is to have all games 15x3, but if that's not feasible, then at least return to the old 15x3 for all games except WS which remains at 11x3; and

    2) If viewing time is the issue due to commecial sponsorship demands etc, then all games shall be reduced to 11x3. In such case, everyone will get to view all the games, plus it is fair to both men and women players.

    P.S So Kwun, when are you going to organise the first ever Badminton Central World Championship? *nudge*

  3. #20
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    need some sponsors. know any?

  4. #21
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    I've watched (WTSN channel is great) this year Japan Open. The ladies doubles was the most exciting (WTSN is women sports channel, so they broadcast only LS, LD and XD) and played in 7x5 format. It was Gao Ling/Huang Sui vs Ra KM/Lee KW.

    The Koreans won 3-2. They attacked a lot, taking the initiative and going for the shots hard. After the game the Koreans looked tired, but the Chinese girls seemingly still fresh.

    I think changing the LD to 3x11 may not be a bad thing after all. Of course the new format has to be tested to see the results. But I believe this change could make the game faster and more attractive to the audiences. Making the game shorter, the ladies teams should be more adventurous to win the rallies rather than trying to wear out the opponents.

  5. #22
    Regular Member adelina76's Avatar
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    Cool Sponsors...

    All right, calling all millionaire badminton players..this is your chance! Hehe Kwun, maybe we should all become 'smokin monkeys...' *innocent look*

    Hmms..how about all of you turn up to Christchurch..err..you can sleep in my living room..air tickets..hmms, peopl did say that swimming is the best form of exercise and warm up..

  6. #23
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    Default Re: Re: *** discrimination?

    Originally posted by adelina76
    [B]
    In other words Cheung, if it is the commercial viewing time that is of concern, I agree wholeheartedly with what Kwun suggested, why not have all the games reduced to 11x3 format? Besides from what you are saying in terms of 'the average people not being able to appreciate the tactical strokes from watching long WD (I note you didn't mention XD here), are you implying that the average person will appreciate MS and MD more than WD and XD? So you are saying that the general public would prefer to watch men play than women play. If you are implying that, that is definitely a discrimination.

    The other thing you have to remember is..other than the viewing time issue, such IBF rule is binding on all badminton tournaments which meant we, as competitive players are also bound by this rule and as a player, I can tell you it is not fun having your doubles match reduced from 15 to 11 points.. So anyway, summary of all this is:

    1) The best way to ensure fairness to both men and women is to have all games 15x3, but if that's not feasible, then at least return to the old 15x3 for all games except WS which remains at 11x3; and

    2) If viewing time is the issue due to commecial sponsorship demands etc, then all games shall be reduced to 11x3. In such case, everyone will get to view all the games, plus it is fair to both men and women players.

    /B]
    a. Let me just state my position here before being openly accused of *** discrimination. It has been noted by many people that badminton is a fast game. In general, the games with the fastest shots are perceived by the "average non-badminton player" as most enjoyable. It is easier to understand as well. Therefore, it sounds to reason that the "average viewer" (not player) will be more attracted to the game.

    Let me say to you, if the fastest shots are played by the ladies, then of course, allocating a greater proportion of the time to that part of the game is correct. Would that be discrimination? Some men might say so! But no it isn't. It is a course of events that occur because of fact.

    Now, for the real world, the men's game is the fastest so a greater proportion of the time is spent on this. Why is it not possible to apply the same logic and then be accused of *** discrimination?

    Of course not. It just happens to be a fact. So the fact is the fastest shots are played by the men.

    b. if you talk about fairness, my statement is that all games be 5 x9 (I have stated this before). However, the world is frequently unfair and there may be other factors which we don't know of yet. If some people don't fully know, or know but don't appreciate the reasons behind suchdecisions, it stands to reason that a proportion of those people will shout "UNFAIR"! This is not unique to badminton but happens on many commercial and governemt decisions. Not all decisions are correct though....

    c. for your point (2), that is one solution. But the priority for IBF might be to increase viewership and sponsorship and thus allocation of time becomes a priority factor. Maybe IBF would rather have Ladies (&mxd) shown in full rather than have edited h'lights.

    d. yes, I agree reduction of points may not be obvious but did you consider some of the possible advantages that I mentioned? Should those possible 'advantages' be immediately discounted because a person/group shouts "unfair, it's *** discrimination"!

    e. oh yes, it stands to reason that if resources are limited(i.e. viewing time, then we should utilise it to maximum benefit
    Last edited by Cheung; 06-15-2002 at 04:52 AM.

  7. #24
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    Angry Finding the right answer to the wrong question

    To me, it is symptomatic to how the IBF works (or rather, not works) that they approached this from the wrong angle. The first question should have been: "Do we need a scoring change?", instead of immediately asking "can we accept 5x7 as the new scoring system?". That way, it would have been easier to approach the whole issue of which system to use in a more scientific and empirical fashion...

  8. #25
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    Cool Further news

    This is sure to bring a smile to Adelina's face

    http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...olt&sec=sports

    The IBF might be accused of *** discrimination if it continues with the present scoring system

  9. #26
    Regular Member adelina76's Avatar
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    Angry *gasps*

    First of all, thanks Cheung for that update..but did you guys read what I read..in case you missed it from the Star's article (which Cheung has kindly provided)..and I quote:

    “We are focusing to a large extent on the presentation on television – making sure all our players have their names on the back of their shirts, making sure that at our international events team members are wearing team colours, (and) opponents at a given match are wearing distinct colours,” IBF chief executive Neil Cameron said.

    “We have been working with manufacturers to try and make sure that particularly ladies, but also the men, wear clothes that allow spectators to realise what the bodies of the participants look like.”
    Ohmygosh! So we all should now wear what Serena Williams wear during the recent U S Open? Tight catsuit so that we all can show the spectators what our bodies look like? This is ridiculous! Someone please tell me that I've misread the article somehow!

    A

  10. #27
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    I'm too was astonished with IBF's two sided approach. On one hand IBF reduces the scoring point for the ladies event but on the other hand they want the viewing audience to see 'more' of the ladies players. It looks to me like the IBF want to promote badminton at the expense of women players. As i have said in my previous posts, IBF don't seem to have a thought out strategy to promote badminton. They seem to react and pick the flavor of the moment type of solution.

  11. #28
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    Thumbs down

    ?We have been working with manufacturers to try and make sure that particularly ladies, but also the men, wear clothes that allow spectators to realise what the bodies of the participants look like.?
    Hmmm....what is this? I guessed maybe the IBF gotten the attendance numbers back when Carola Bott played.

    This is probably the most sexist statement that I've heard from the IBF.

  12. #29
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    Thumbs up

    Another note on the article.

    Do you catch the fact that BAofE refuses to play 11x5 for the WD and XD events?

    Good for them.

    I wondered if complaining to the President (Korn Babbaransi) of IBF would make any difference.

  13. #30
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    Oops...I meant 11x3.

    To further clarify. BAofE events are all 15x3 except the ladies singles which is 11x3 contratory to IBF where 11x3 is used for the WD, XD and WS.

  14. #31
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    Default BAofE also discriminating

    What I don't understand is that everybody cheers when going back to the old scoring system.

    Why all the cheering. In fact, none of the problems have been solved because the women STILL do not have equal footing. i.e. the women's singles is fewer points.

    If people are going to argue reducing the WD and Mxd to 11 are discriminatory, they have to include Women's singles in that package as well.

    Therefore, BAofE are still getting it wrong. They should increase the Women's singles to 15 points per game if they want to make a statement.

    How come I never ever see people supporting 3 x 15 for the ladies singles?

    Just to repeat the question (so everybody gets the right idea


    How come I never ever see people supporting 3 x 15 for the ladies singles?

    BTW, the women's doubles game is better with shorter games for viewing purposes. It is more attacking. Mixed, not seen eoungh to comment.

  15. #32
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    Sorry to revive an old thread but with the biggest shop window for badminton upcoming (the WC at Birmingham) we will see how the system performs on the world stage.

    Cheung, excellent point regarding the inequlity in womens singles, perhaps the reason for the illogical 11 points is that most women don't want to play more points, in fact at lower levels (county, opens etc in uk) its hard to even find enough womens singles players to run the events, and games are frequently quick and one sided at all levels. If we had 15 pts in ws would we see a different type of womens player prospering , we often see strong women with little movement prospering in england, perhaps never being stretched endurance wise over the short format?

    When you go to watch badminton over a day as many will at the worlds, we enjoy the great players but it is the close matches, the see saw matches and comebacks that involve the crowd most, and you simply get more of those in the 15 format. Even for top players playing to 11 or 7, mentally a 5 point gap is likely to mean the game is gone, where as in 15 this is not the case. Look at the number of 11-0, 11-1 games in mixed in recent grand prix events, now i don't have the statistics but i'm sure there weren't so many one sided games under the 15 format.

    Also for the WC organisers there is the bonus of the amount of extra merchandise that can be sold while all the crowd are driven out of the arena by the 2 hour, 17-16 16-17 17-16 all chinese womens doubles final (only joking)


  16. #33
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    It's the Korean women's doubles who like to play 2 hour matches. They did this in 2001 WC Q/f against a chinese pair and 2003 SC s/f against Denmark! the last match was more impressive as it was 11 point games....

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    5x7 was indeed to short. but then: 5x7=35 while 3x15=45 big difference..
    5x9=45 ..seems good to mee..
    with 3x15 you need to make 30 points to win.
    with 5x9 you need 27 points to win..

    good enough for me..

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