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  1. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    BWF is only a body from all National Badminton Associations around the world. It is controlled by all these associations by votes.

    No way could we blame BWF.
    That point you wrote is not true, thus it might start your misperception on how things work. BWF is not controlled by all National Associations. The BWF top officials are voted into power by a number of National Associations. After that, they have executive power to manage things. No need to vote on many issues, including how to make sure there is a SS Finals.

    Next, BWF management should ensure there are enough interested parties who want to hold the SS Finals first, pre-select them. Then announce there will be a SS Finals. Without ensuring there is going to be one [at least in the 1st year when BWF actually started the SS system], don't announce anything. This is their fault. BWF should be blamed for this! It is so obvious to some of us. Classic incompetent management practice there.

    BWF is very unlike the UN. Wrong analogy! BWF can impose many more things in badminton compared to the UN towards many global issues. BWF is much more comparable to FIFA. Though FIFA itself is not perfect, but they have done a much better job making soccer/football the #1 sport on the planet.

    chris@ccc, I think you just have a different perception on how management should work than me, ctjcad, and Hau-ge. This probably stems from our own experiences and examples in our lives on how a good organization should behave. In our eyes, BWF is obviously an example of a sub-par managed organization in the past few years. Badminton deserves better.

  2. #121
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Perhaps, I have been told incorrectly

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisna View Post

    That point you wrote is not true, thus it might start your misperception on how things work. BWF is not controlled by all National Associations. The BWF top officials are voted into power by a number of National Associations. After that, they have executive power to manage things. No need to vote on many issues, including how to make sure there is a SS Finals.

    Next, BWF management should ensure there are enough interested parties who want to hold the SS Finals first...

    .
    Krisna ... I don't work for the BWF, so I do not know deep enough their politics.

    But this I know. BWF asked for the bigger National Opens to join in the Super Series Tournament Schedule. These National Tournaments were already in existence. And their National Associations agreed to allow their tournaments to be part of the SS. BWF was glad because they don't need to manage these individual National Opens, but to award points to players. But BWF do give a hand to the National Associations in terms of the draw, prize money, etc... Isn't it like for ITF organising their Tennis Masters Series? I thought BWF was just copying ITF.

    Then come the Finals... Didn't ITF also ask for cities to host them or did ITF borrowed a city to hold the Finals?

    That's why I gave the example of the Olympic Games in earlier posts. If no country wants to host the OG, I don't think the OG could be held at all.

    This is what I have been told about how World Finals are organised, which include sports like Soccer, Tennis, Golf, etc... Perhaps, I have been told incorrectly.


    .

  3. #122
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmm..

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    ...
    BWF has raised US$500,000.00 to offer as the SS prize money. BWF has ask all National Associations to bid for the hosting of the SS Finals.
    ...
    But we couldn't raise enough money from Australian sponsors to stage it. We were hoping that we could get some funds from our government (who has helped in events like the Olympics, Commonwealth Games, Grand Prix Car Racing, World Swimming, International Cricket, etc.. ). But because Badminton is not popular here, no government funds were forthcoming.
    ...
    So, from Melbourne, Australia, we have blamed ourselves for being unable to host it.
    No way could we blame BWF.
    ...
    Also, we should ask our National Associations to host the next SS Finals... so that we don't need to travel far to watch it.
    .
    First point. True, BWF has finally found an entity/entities that's willing to sponsor this event. But apparently, they never had anything secured when they announced the plan last yr?..

    Second point. Taken. I think that can be said to other cities which failed to provide enough funding/sponsorship.
    Apparently, from what i can summarize, the situation seemed to be:
    BWF did have the fund to sponsor the event but never secured any city to host it, yet they announced about the plan anyway.
    In any rate, don't you think the wise thing to do is to secure both the prize-money and host city prior to announcing the event?

    Third point. If chris@ccc were in BWF's shoes:
    1. How would you handle it?
    2. Would you secure everything in place, first, before announcing it?
    3. And if the plan didn't go through, who do you think should be responsible? Would you point the "responsibilty" on the host cities which failed to secure their promise?
    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    ...
    That's why I gave the example of the Olympic Games in earlier posts. If no country wants to host the OG, I don't think the OG could be held at all.
    ....
    ..you hit it right on the nail; just like what a few of us have suggested. If nothing is secured, in this case a host city, don't announce anything..

    On the last point, of course, everyone would love their national body to host the next SS Final (probably out of selfish reason).. But reality is, how far one travels is relative and the location of the event won't satisfy everyone.

    *Btw, the official announcement was made last month; not in July (summer), as i posted a few posts back. I got confused with the 7/11/2008; apparently the 7 is the date and 11 is the month.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-20-2008 at 11:37 PM.

  4. #123
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default typo party...

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ...
    *Btw, the official announcement was made last month; not in July (summer), as i posted a few posts back. I got confused with the 7/11/2008; apparently the 7 is the date and 11 is the month.
    ..supposed to be earlier this month (kept thinking it's already December)..

  5. #124
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    Anyway i would say that BWF is mainly at fault here for announcing it late to the public.
    In fact the SSF was in the internal discussion earlier this year.

  6. #125
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default ^^Everything seems to be late..^^

    ..at least for this Super Series Finale plan..

    1. Late announcement (not til middle to late last yr). BWF thought they had secured a host city..
    2. Everyone expected a good news but instead the news was the cancellation.
    3. BWF "forced" to have one late last yr or early in 2008, to make up for the cancelled plan, but at a different place.
    4. Plan fell apart. Postponed til further notice.
    fast forward to now..
    5. Another very late announcement. Out of nowhere. Even later than last yr's..
    6. Thankfully this time, it's a good news; they secured the location, albeit unexpectedly..

    ..let's cross our fingers they won't cancel this one; as there is no word on the ticket sales/price, no website/further info abt the tourney with about a month to go.......If this one gets cancelled, again, watch out as a few BCers hoping to go & watch might go on a riot...

    ..so much for BWF putting a plan together...

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Krisna ... I don't work for the BWF, so I do not know deep enough their politics.

    But this I know. BWF asked for the bigger National Opens to join in the Super Series Tournament Schedule. These National Tournaments were already in existence. And their National Associations agreed to allow their tournaments to be part of the SS. BWF was glad because they don't need to manage these individual National Opens, but to award points to players. But BWF do give a hand to the National Associations in terms of the draw, prize money, etc... Isn't it like for ITF organising their Tennis Masters Series? I thought BWF was just copying ITF.
    BWF wanted to copy ITF, but managed it badly! BWF should have secured the venues for at least 2 years of SS Finals BEFORE they announced there will be a SS Finals. If they had done so, they are as qualified as the ITF or the IOC or FIFA etc.

    chris@ccc, I don't think we should discuss this further, it is obvious you think that BWF's management style is ok. Some of us think they have blundered several times regarding the SS Finals...

    If you think BWF's actions are ok, go ahead, practice their sense of timing and management style in real life. I really do not think you should, though...
    Last edited by Krisna; 11-21-2008 at 09:45 AM.

  8. #127
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Smile It's let's try it, if it doesn't work, let's try something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisna View Post

    BWF wanted to copy ITF, but managed it badly! BWF should have secured the venues for at least 2 years of SS Finals BEFORE they announced there will be a SS Finals. If they had done so, they are as qualified as the ITF or the IOC or FIFA etc.

    chris@ccc, I don't think we should discuss this further, it is obvious you think that BWF's management style is ok. Some of us think they have blundered several times regarding the SS Finals...

    If you think BWF's actions are ok, go ahead, practice their sense of timing and management style in real life. I really do not think you should, though...

    .
    If BWF should have secured the venues for at least 2 years of SS Finals BEFORE they announced there will be a SS Finals, then I think nothing would have happened at all.

    When I said that BWF is not to be blamed, I am actually saying is that there is not enough support for BWF from the rest of us (cities) to make things happen. That's what I said when Melbourne, Australia, couldn't afford to host the SS Finals; that it is not BWF's fault. How can BWF be at fault when they can provide Melbourne with the US$500,000.00 for the SS Finals prize money? They have only asked us to set up the venues, tickets sales, accommodations for players and officials, etc... And this, I also understand that BWF couldn't do any better than us local organisers in our own country.

    The 2007 SS Finals was meant to be held at Doha. But Doha couldn't carry out their plans the last moment. Then I thought Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Korea, Denmark and England would step in to help. And Kedah, Malaysia, tried. But in the end, they couldn't afford to host it either.

    Maybe, BWF allowed cities too much time to confirm their certainty to host it. Melbourne only told BWF that we couldn't afford to hold it at the end of October, 2008. Within a few days' time, Kota Kinabalu bid to host it.

    Perhaps, I am a more forgiving person, allowing BWF to make mistakes. But from what I see, BWF have tried to implement many new things, hoping to improve our Badminton.

    My background is in management. I have always listened to my staff when they come up with new ideas. I would say... It's let's try it, if it doesn't work, let's try something else.

    What I see is that our Badminton World is not really running smoothly. Example: China told BWF that they would not attend the 2007 SS Finals even if it could be held.

    Let's look at the New Rally-Point Scoring. It was meant for Badminton to be more Television Friendly. But look at the complains that we have (just through our threads in Badminton Central).

    I will always support BWF if they are trying out new things to make Badminton more popular. And I hope all Badminton players, clubs, associations, etc... will do the same.

    We should work together to make things happen. Not by just complaining.

    Perhaps, many BCers do not understand how difficult things can be. Btw, Kota Kinabalu has got bid because Tourism Sabah (a state in Malaysia) invested in it... hoping to promote tourism to their state. But some BCers even asked "Why hold it in a smaller city, why not in a much bigger city?"


    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 11-21-2008 at 11:57 AM.

  9. #128
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    You have a point there. Sometimes the host country is giving problems. Well what to do... badminton is not as popular as tennis.
    If Tennis.. every country wants to host the Master Series.

  10. #129
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmm..

    ..chris@ccc, looking at all the events leading up to the current situation, with AUS being one of the countries unable to host this event, with all the late, late, late, cancelled, postponed news, do you think BWF has run a good process in presenting this event??..If you were in BWF shoes, would you have undertaken the same approach as they did??..

    Again, i think we can agree on your earlier comment (about IOC/Olympics) that "If no country wants to host the OG, I don't think the OG could be held at all."..Apparently BWF had thought all along that they had or would secure a host city...only to find out otherwise..
    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    ...Perhaps, many BCers do not understand how difficult things can be. Btw, Kota Kinabalu has got bid because Tourism Sabah (a state in Malaysia) invested in it... hoping to promote tourism to their state. But some BCers even asked "Why hold it in a smaller city, why not in a much bigger city?"


    .
    ..yep, i was one of those (maybe the only one) who wondered/is puzzled why bigger cities aren't able to host this event (post #114). I understand things can come up, esp. unexpected or unforeseen things. And I don't really care if the host city is Bali or Jakarta or Penang or KK. But if cities like Jakarta or KL can hold "smaller/ess prized-tourneys" like a regular SS, why can't they hold a "bigger prize-money" tourney??..Promote tourism?? Don't you think KL, Jakarta or Beijing would love to have more tourists??..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-21-2008 at 04:27 PM.

  11. #130
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmm..another 3 sen rupiahs..

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    ...
    Maybe, BWF allowed cities too much time to confirm their certainty to host it
    . Melbourne only told BWF that we couldn't afford to hold it at the end of October, 2008. Within a few days' time, Kota Kinabalu bid to host it.
    ...
    (wanted to add this but ran out of time)
    ..possibly. Do you think that's a good approach?? Waiting til last minute and then announcing it a month or so prior to the event??..why is it always at the last minute??..

  12. #131
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Host cities to be rewarded for helping to hold the SS Finals

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    ..chris@ccc, looking at all the events leading up to the current situation, with AUS being one of the countries unable to host this event, with all the late, late, late, cancelled, postponed news, do you think BWF has run a good process in presenting this event??..If you were in BWF shoes, would you have undertaken the same approach as they did??..

    ..yep, i was one of those (maybe the only one) who wondered/is puzzled why bigger cities aren't able to host this event (post #114). I understand things can come up, esp. unexpected or unforeseen things. And I don't really care if the host city is Bali or Jakarta or Penang or KK. But if cities like Jakarta or KL can hold "smaller/ess prized-tourneys" like a regular SS, why can't they hold a "bigger prize-money" tourney??

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    (wanted to add this but ran out of time)
    ..possibly. Do you think that's a good approach?? Waiting til last minute and then announcing it a month or so prior to the event??..why is it always at the last minute??..

    .
    Hi ctjcad,

    Question: If you were in BWF shoes, would you have undertaken the same approach as they did?
    Answer: A BIG "No". I wouldn't have allocated all the US$500,000.00 to just the players alone as prize money.I would have given some to the host cities to reward them for helping to hold the SS Finals. At this stage of our Badminton history, prize money is not the main attraction for players to participate in tournaments. As was pointed out earlier, China wasn't even interested in participating in the 2007 SS Finals (even if it was to be held).

    Question: If cities like Jakarta or KL can hold "smaller/ess prized-tourneys" like a regular SS, why can't they hold a "bigger prize-money" tourney?
    Answer: We must understand that the tournaments making up the different stages of the SS are not new. They are their National Annual Opens that have been in existence all along. These tournaments are conducted not for the SS, but as their own national events . And as to why they can't hold a "bigger prize-money" tournament, only they can answer that question.

    Question: Why is it always at the last minute (to hold the SS Finals)?
    Answer: That's because BWF is so desperate to have the SS Finals. BWF have a dream to promote Badminton worldwide. In fact, IMHO, BWF was hoping for the SS Finals to be held away from the countries who have a long history of holding their well-known National Opens.

    PS: All of the the above answers are my own opinions. Hope that someone from BWF is reading this and will correct my answers.


    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 11-21-2008 at 08:12 PM.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    When I said that BWF is not to be blamed, I am actually saying is that there is not enough support for BWF from the rest of us (cities) to make things happen.
    Who is responsible for gathering support for this idea: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for giving incentive to host cities: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for making the choice of working with Doha: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for announcing/not announcing: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for the timing of announcements: BWF... [fail!]

    We all know BWF is responsible to make badminton better and they are not failing in that. But in the case of managing the SS Finals they are doing a bad job! Period. That's all.

    chris@ccc, after all this discussion and you still insist that your analysis is that BWF is not to blame in managing the SS Finals... it is your choice. Clearly your concept of management [and what makes management sense to you] is different than mine and some of my friends. I have been in top management for more than 10 years and I know very well who should be responsible in this situation.
    Last edited by Krisna; 11-21-2008 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #133
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Hmmm..

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Question: If you were in BWF shoes, would you have undertaken the same approach as they did?
    Answer: A BIG "No". I wouldn't have allocated all the US$500,000.00 to just the players alone as prize money.I would have given some to the host cities to reward them for helping to hold the SS Finals. At this stage of our Badminton history, prize money is not the main attraction for players to participate in tournaments. As was pointed out earlier, China wasn't even interested in participating in the 2007 SS Finals (even if it was to be held)..
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..chris@ccc, looking at all the events leading up to the current situation, with AUS being one of the countries unable to host this event, with all the late, late, late, cancelled, postponed news, do you think BWF has run a good process in presenting this event??..If you were in BWF shoes, would you have undertaken the same approach as they did??..
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    (wanted to add this but ran out of time)
    ..possibly. Do you think that's a good approach?? Waiting til last minute and then announcing it a month or so prior to the event??..why is it always at the last minute??..
    ..appreciate for answering (some) of the questions.
    Actually for the above question, you might've translate it differently. It's actually still part of the earlier question(s) which (for some reason) was skipped; i've repost them above.
    In essence, the question has revolved around the same theme:
    With all that's happened, in the last yr or so with this SS Finale, do you think/feel BWF has approached & run a good process in presenting this event??
    If you don't feel so, how would you have done it differently??
    Quote Originally Posted by Krisna View Post
    Who is responsible for gathering support for this idea: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for giving incentive to host cities: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for making the choice of working with Doha: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for announcing/not announcing: BWF... [fail!]
    Who is responsible for the timing of announcements: BWF... [fail!]
    ...
    ..wait, there's one more:
    Who is responsible for FINALLY presenting this tourney in KK: BWF... [pending]
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-22-2008 at 12:42 AM.

  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Hi ctjcad,

    Question: If you were in BWF shoes, would you have undertaken the same approach as they did?
    Answer: A BIG "No". I wouldn't have allocated all the US$500,000.00 to just the players alone as prize money.I would have given some to the host cities to reward them for helping to hold the SS Finals. At this stage of our Badminton history, prize money is not the main attraction for players to participate in tournaments. As was pointed out earlier, China wasn't even interested in participating in the 2007 SS Finals (even if it was to be held).

    Question: If cities like Jakarta or KL can hold "smaller/ess prized-tourneys" like a regular SS, why can't they hold a "bigger prize-money" tourney?
    Answer: We must understand that the tournaments making up the different stages of the SS are not new. They are their National Annual Opens that have been in existence all along. These tournaments are conducted not for the SS, but as their own national events . And as to why they can't hold a "bigger prize-money" tournament, only they can answer that question.

    Question: Why is it always at the last minute (to hold the SS Finals)?
    Answer: That's because BWF is so desperate to have the SS Finals. BWF have a dream to promote Badminton worldwide. In fact, IMHO, BWF was hoping for the SS Finals to be held away from the countries who have a long history of holding their well-known National Opens.

    PS: All of the the above answers are my own opinions. Hope that someone from BWF is reading this and will correct my answers.


    .
    I find the idea of rewarding host organisers unreal.And at the expense of the players?
    What's US$500000 divided by 5 events divided by 8 shares per event? That's just over US$10000 per player share!That's peanuts!(unless it's Spore's NKF peanuts which once had a reputed value of US$50000 per peanut)
    If Melbourne missed the opportunity to hold the SSF, that's BAA's shortcoming and lack of imagination.You don't expect the BAA to finance hosting the event.Rather, one would expect the BAA to approach the Victoria Tourism Board to sponsor and fund the major part.It involves how well you can sell to VTB.
    First, the interest will be very high,locally. As an indication,the Commonwealth Games badminton tournament was sold out. And that's just with LCW as the star.And at SSF, we 're talking about the top 8, so it would attract a lot of interest internationally.Anything that can bring in tourist receipts should attract VTB interest.Badminton fans are not just going to fly in just to watch top class badminton. They gotta eat, pay for accm and do tha extra bit to help the host economy.Some of this money's going back to the Tourism Board.There's no guarantee VTB's gonna make profits from this but where's ever the guarantee that their other vague non-sport tourist efforts have?The great thing about sports event sponsorship is that it can be measured directly and quickly.If VTB don't try , they won't know.What's $250,000 to them? You think they can't recoup that sum from badminton fans?Who do they think badminton fans are? Paupers? Assuming 3000 season tickets at US$200 each, that's US$600000.And that's not including hotel and shopping yet! Plus VTB( and Melbourne) get free advertising on sports TV worldwide!One 30s TVC spot is worth more than US$100000.And the SSF airtime exposure is gonna be four whole days, not just 30s! When you factor in all these numbers to VTB, they know they will have a winner hosting the SSF.
    But I'm glad KK won this opportunity. Sabah is such a tourist-driven economy they can spot a winner before VTB even woke up.And I'm just wondering what's our SBA doing. Was SBA not even approached?
    BTW, why should CHN's disinterest determine SSF's fate? The main reason why CHN's not keen is because of the two per country limit. But look which country's losing out on that rule now.

  16. #135
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Many would have given up to continue with this SS format/programme

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisna View Post

    We all know BWF is responsible to make badminton better and they are not failing in that. But in the case of managing the SS Finals they are doing a bad job! Period. That's all.

    chris@ccc, after all this discussion and you still insist that your analysis is that BWF is not to blame in managing the SS Finals... it is your choice. Clearly your concept of management [and what makes management sense to you] is different than mine and some of my friends. I have been in top management for more than 10 years and I know very well who should be responsible in this situation.

    .
    There is hope that the SS format/programme can succeed.

    Yes, many would have given up to continue with this SS.
    There is just not enough support (from different countries) for it.
    .

  17. #136
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow My concern is to popularise Badminton

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    Actually for the above question, you might've translate it differently. It's actually still part of the earlier question(s) which (for some reason) was skipped; i've repost them above.
    In essence, the question has revolved around the same theme:
    With all that's happened, in the last yr or so with this SS Finale, do you think/feel BWF has approached & run a good process in presenting this event??
    If you don't feel so, how would you have done it differently??

    ..wait, there's one more:
    Who is responsible for FINALLY presenting this tourney in KK: BWF... [pending]

    .
    I don't work for BWF and/or for KK Badminton. Please don't ask me too many question on them. I am only interested that the SS can go ahead.

    My concern is to popularise Badminton and to thank any city willing to host it. And if KK decides to cancel the SS Finals in the last minute, I would not blame them either.
    .

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