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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    again, your conclusion is one dimensional, all base upon feather player would smash harder, no provision/advantage given to plastic players who are more accustom to plastic shuttle than a feather player who is doing the smashing. Fortunately, badminton is more diverse skills based game than u think, unlike basketball which favors height, football which favor mass, and swimming with favors long limbs. In badminton, u can not dominate just by having one particular skill or feature. That is why LD isn't the tallest nor we see bulging muscular players dominating MD.
    My assumption is based more from the physics of the aerodynaimc properties of a soft nylon cone, compared to natures complex/stiff feather structure. I am positve all top-level pros on the tour have hard enough smashes to make the nylon shirt fold due to the air resistance of the 200km/h+ smashes these guys produce.. It is based on simple physics..

    /T

  2. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    My assumption is based more from the physics of the aerodynaimc properties of a soft nylon cone, compared to natures complex/stiff feather structure. I am positve all top-level pros on the tour have hard enough smashes to make the nylon shirt fold due to the air resistance of the 200km/h+ smashes these guys produce.. It is based on simple physics..

    /T
    i know the physics quite well thx u very much, i wasn't doubting the fact that mavis shuttle can retain speed longer duration, my doubt is, is this one advantage that feather players have over plastic players? Can't a plastic player smash back to a feather player with similar high speed as well? Who is better position to retrieve them btw??
    Last edited by cooler; 04-08-2009 at 04:41 PM.

  3. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    I was walking along a small patch of public park today, and lo and behold I saw 4 pairs of players playing with Mavis nylon (yellow colour). The small park was almost completely taken up by the players. The players were in casuals and some just wore slippers. There was a group of Indian players, one of them was pretty good. After a game the pairs would pass their racquet over to another pair, and in between games they would run around the small park for fun.
    Out of curiousity I asked to have a few shots. I can tell you plastics is not badminton. The feel, touch and almost all the strokes are not there with plastics. For example, with feathers the shuttle leaves the racquet face with great crispness and speed and it then slows down dramatically as it nears the net when you execute a deceptive reverse slice drop shot-a combination of fast initial speed and then a spinning slow speed vertical drop that is hard to read. With plastics, the nylon leaves the racquet dead with a very slow turnover and then the reverse slice drop is a joke as it drops nowhere. There is absolutely no deception with the reverse slice drop. You can read every stroke your opponent makes. I feel as if I am hitting a kind of stone. With high clears they all land out by a wide margin. And who says that a good plastic is better than a cheap feather? This is an incredulous claim. Any battered feather is anytime better than a new Mavis 500.
    Wait a minute...are you being serious ? Any battered feather is anytime better than a new mavis 500..I COMPLETELY disagree with that statement. I can't stand playing with beaten up feathers.

  4. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumaranai View Post
    Are you saying that it'd fly so fast that none of them would be able to return it?
    Yes, I think very few smashes would be returened with control if Mavis 300,350,370 or 500 type shuttles where used..My experience is that the plastic shirt does "implode" from the air-pressure at a certain smash speed, so if the smash is lets say 200km/h it would have close to the same speed when reaching the retriever...exteremly hard to retrieve effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumaranai View Post
    I certainly don't think the argument of having to adapt is inane. It's obvious that that's what is necessary for someone to play decently with either type. Though it shouldn't be a very large transition. They definitely fly differently, so you'd have to adjust a bit to properly control your shots. I don't see that it's that much different from adapting to a racket.
    But the whole point of the game is that it should be a competition with constants (Field-size, legal-shots, scoring, shuttle-flight, net etc.) and the varying component should ideally only be the opponent.. Ideally it should not be the wind, different flight, light, sides etc. ie.. In my point of view figuring out which player is better of adapting to changes of the constants of the game, that is meant to be just constants, does not interest me.. I dont really care if Taufik or Lin Dan is better to adapt to a slippery court with blinding lights and hevay side wind :-(

    I don't see any relevenace if player A or B is better to adapt to shuttles that does not have the flight properties of approved shuttles.

    When it comes to changing from feathers to plastic, it is not only "adapting" to the shuttle.. The way I see it it is also CHANGING the gameplan, tactics and shot selecting, based on the different flight characteristics of the nylon bird.. So to me this is more than adapting.. this is changing the game and tactics substantially.

    It is obviuous that a recreatinal player who can barely clear full court with any type of shuttle, and has never experienced a string-breakage :-) has a difference reference point in what is "the same" or "similar".. If you never hit a smash hard enough to notice the shirt folding on a nylon (or played against someone who does), you may not see the problem with the cone shirt.

    On the other hand, player who play many times a week, and goes for the lines and is not surprised when the tumbling shuttle touches the net-cord 4 times out of 10 stops :-), string very tight and do super-fast jumpsmashes, will feel the difference between the current nylon alternatives to be HUGE!! and unnaccptable for serious and enjoyable play..

    /Twobeer.

    P.S. If players felt adaption to different shuttle flight is no problem.. LD, Taufik and the guys would certainly not switch to new shuttles so often as they do in their competetive games :-) D.S.
    Last edited by twobeer; 04-08-2009 at 05:16 PM.

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    /Twobeer.

    P.S. If players felt adaption to different shuttle flight is no problem.. LD, Taufik and the guys would certainly not switch to new shuttles so often as they do in their competetive games :-) D.S.
    i didnt read your longer paragraphs yet.
    this last PS statement is invalid for making your point. They are both confined to play feather in this tournament, one can't ask for plastic even if one of them wanted to. Second, they change shuttles because 'they can' or it is allowed by bwf rule. However, other important parameters that affect their games BUT CAN NOT change are lighting, line judge, air draft. Therefore, LD and TH have to make personal adjustment to these latter variation to their games. Ex. if one of them dont like the shuttle, he can request shuttle change. If they dont like the line call, can they demand a line judge change? can they ask for a court change or refuse to play because the air draft is not to their liking?
    Last edited by cooler; 04-08-2009 at 05:42 PM.

  6. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    i didnt read your longer paragraphs yet.
    this last PS statement is invalid for making your point. They are both confined to play feather in this tournament, one can't ask for plastic even if one of them wanted to. Second, they change shuttles because 'they can' or it is allowed by bwf rule. However, other important parameters that affect their games BUT CAN NOT change are lighting, line judge, air draft. Therefore, LD and TH have to make personal adjustment to these latter variation to their games. Ex. if one of them dont like the shuttle, he can request shuttle change. If they dont like the line call, can they demand a line judge change? can they ask for a court change or refuse to play because the air draft is not to their liking?
    Read my longer paragraphs and you will see we are not in total disagreement :-)

    However I feel you are just playing devils advocate in your first statements, as you are surely aware not one of the top pros would "prefer" to use one of the currently available plastic shuttles, over an AS-50, top RSL, Top HEAD or Top Wilson shuttle :-)

    /Twobeer

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    Read my longer paragraphs and you will see we are not in total disagreement :-)

    However I feel you are just playing devils advocate in your first statements, as you are surely aware not one of the top pros would "prefer" to use one of the currently available plastic shuttles, over an AS-50, top RSL, Top HEAD or Top Wilson shuttle :-)

    /Twobeer
    a pro play for money not because it is feather tournament.
    if a plastic tournament prize is $1,000,000 for first, and 500k for second, and a different feather tournament with prize of 5k for rist and 2.5k for second, and both occur the same dates, which tournament would top pros go to?

  8. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    Read my longer paragraphs and you will see we are not in total disagreement :-)

    However I feel you are just playing devils advocate in your first statements, as you are surely aware not one of the top pros would "prefer" to use one of the currently available plastic shuttles, over an AS-50, top RSL, Top HEAD or Top Wilson shuttle :-)

    /Twobeer
    u did not answer my question. Feather shuttles is the only paramenter they can change, in competitive play, what other variables can a player physically change?(except for another racket)

    it sounds repetitive but here goes again, pros prefer feathers before they eat, play, sleep, train in feathers. I said it before, it is human nature to choose what is easiest and familiar to them. Try asking taneepak to eat rye bread with his steamed fish
    Last edited by cooler; 04-08-2009 at 06:10 PM.

  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    a pro play for money not because it is feather tournament.
    if a plastic tournament prize is $1,000,000 for first, and 500k for second, and a different feather tournament with prize of 5k for rist and 2.5k for second, and both occur the same dates, which tournament would top pros go to?
    Hypotetical, and higly irrellevant.. If LD got $1.000.000 for playing a charity game of baseball, I am pretty sure he would accept..

    Pro player have been asked number of times if they prefer feather shuttles or nylons, and I have never heard a pro suggesting nylons would be as good, or even acceptable..

    I am sure i pro players asked for it we would have plastic tournaments already.. I would bet that if we did a poll of badminton players regardless of skill and asked the question "if money was not an object, would you prefer to use plastic shuttles or goose feather shuttles" .. my guessis that an overwhelming majority would choose "real" shuttles.

    This is the real issue, not weather the pros wouuld accept inferior equipment for large enouugh monetary incentives ?!?!

    /Twobeer

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by malayali View Post
    Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Someone needs to get them a room & get it over with!!!!
    ROFL

    though Cooler does have a point about the pros playing where the money is...

  11. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    u did not answer my question. Feather shuttles is the only paramenter they can change, in competitive play, what other variables can a player physically change?(except for another racket)

    it sounds repetitive but here goes again, pros prefer feathers before they eat, play, sleep, train in feathers. I said it before, it is human nature to choose what is easiest and familiar to them. Try asking taneepak to eat rye bread with his steamed fish

    Well, They can't really "change" the shuttle parameter, as they can only switch to a new approved one..

    Other things similar is that they can wipe the floor to "change" it to dry if it became wet.. They can replace racket/strings if strings break (just as they can change shuttle if shuttle breaks).

    And yes, they have the right to appeal to the umpire to overrule or switch linejudge if the main judge feel the line judje is unfair. (17.6.4)

    /Twobeer

  12. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    Hypotetical, and higly irrellevant.. If LD got $1.000.000 for playing a charity game of baseball, I am pretty sure he would accept..

    Pro player have been asked number of times if they prefer feather shuttles or nylons, and I have never heard a pro suggesting nylons would be as good, or even acceptable..

    I am sure i pro players asked for it we would have plastic tournaments already.. I would bet that if we did a poll of badminton players regardless of skill and asked the question "if money was not an object, would you prefer to use plastic shuttles or goose feather shuttles" .. my guessis that an overwhelming majority would choose "real" shuttles.

    This is the real issue, not weather the pros wouuld accept inferior equipment for large enouugh monetary incentives ?!?!

    /Twobeer
    wrong, for charity, LD might even do it for free, he is genersous as i've said before

    as for a competitive baseball match?? i do not believe LD would participate since he has 'zero' chance of winning playing against other top baseball pros. LD won't even qualify to be in a team, how could he play? Please find better scenario to compare like tennis or table tennis. Still, LD wouldn't compete in those tournaments that has near zero chance of winning. Zero times gizillion $ is still zero.

    i can easily answer your last question LOL
    Korea willing to sign up victor and china willing to sign up Li Ning. Why? for large enough monetary incentive. They even willing to play against players using yonex

  13. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    Well, They can't really "change" the shuttle parameter, as they can only switch to a new approved one..

    Other things similar is that they can wipe the floor to "change" it to dry if it became wet.. They can replace racket/strings if strings break (just as they can change shuttle if shuttle breaks).

    And yes, they have the right to appeal to the umpire to overrule or switch linejudge if the main judge feel the line judje is unfair. (17.6.4)

    /Twobeer
    u obvious miss the whole point of the argument.
    Plastic players can't request change to mavis shuttle in bwf tournaments can he/she? Since they can not nor bwf willing to adopt plastic tournament, it is useless to say top pros only play feather coz they have no choice.
    Last edited by cooler; 04-08-2009 at 06:42 PM.

  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    ROFL

    though Cooler does have a point about the pros playing where the money is...
    If the pros are playing where the money is......why are they playing badminton? Sad but true.

  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    wrong, for charity, LD might even do it for free, he is genersous as i've said before

    as for a competitive baseball match?? i do not believe LD would participate since he has 'zero' chance of winning playing against other top baseball pros. LD won't even qualify to be in a team, how could he play? Please find better scenario to compare like tennis or table tennis. Still, LD wouldn't compete in those tournaments that has near zero chance of winning. Zero times gizillion $ is still zero.

    i can easily answer your last question LOL
    Korea willing to sign up victor and china willing to sign up Li Ning. Why? for large enough monetary incentive. They even willing to play against players using yonex
    It amazes me how much things you "know" for sure.. You know what LD would do and not do, and what the pros "really" feel about shuttles and money, and You know exactly what they think about different rackets from Li Ning, Yonex, Victor etc..

    It's good that you know so much, and have so few doubts


  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    It amazes me how much things you "know" for sure.. You know what LD would do and not do, and what the pros "really" feel about shuttles and money, and You know exactly what they think about different rackets from Li Ning, Yonex, Victor etc..

    It's good that you know so much, and have so few doubts

    i know action speak louder than my supposed assumption about the players

    did taufik show up at the 09 racket rally for feather playing, sichuan foods, west coast air, skiing, to taste canadian beef, to meet haugek or for the dough? have i made any wrong assumption about TH yet? U are free to look through all my prior postings to find contradiction.
    Last edited by cooler; 04-08-2009 at 06:55 PM.

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    My guees would be that most smashes would be close to impossible to return due to the air resistance folding the nylon shirt in the air when these big guns go for any type of hard downward shot or smash.. Basically it would be less finesse and little or no deception, just speed, to be able to get the first (and only) smash..

    /Twobeer
    I think Master TwoBeer hit the nail on the head.

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