JJS/LYD - Road to the WR #1

[badMania]

..hmm, and you're worked up over the use of the word "dominance"??..Personally, i'm not.
Btw, someone please confirm to me JJS & LYD weren't pretty much "dominant" in 2008?? Winning most of their SS tourneys and racking up arguably more MD titles & better results than any MD pairs. And narnia, did in fact started this thread at the end of 2008 for the sole reason or more of a reflection to their 2008 accomplishments.
"Dominance", from their 2008 results, i sure can't argue much abt that..

As always Chris, the stats are there and it's not even clear that any pair (let alone Kido/Hendra or Jung/Lee or Fu/Cai for that matter) was dominant enough in 2008.

Kido/Hendra -- 4 Super Series titles + Beijing Olympics Gold
Jung/Lee -- 4 Super Series titles
Fairuz/Zakry -- 2 Super Series titles
the rest of the SS titles were shared by Fu/Cai and Paaske/Rasmussen.

From head-to-head, Kido/Hendra did lose 3 matches to Jung/Lee (including one in the Thomas Cup and Super Series Masters Final), but, Jung/Lee also lost two consecutive times to Paaske/Rasmussen (again in the Thomas Cup and the Beijing Olympics 2008 first round).

So, can u say that any pair is dominant enough?

[narnia]

. And narnia, did in fact started this thread at the end of 2008 for the sole reason or more of a reflection to their 2008 accomplishments.
"Dominance", from their 2008 results, i sure can't argue much abt that..

OK. It originally started in my intention to investigate that "WHO IS THE STRONGEST MD TEAM IN THE WORLD?" and I have always talked on the measure of "H-2-H stats" among the top ranked MD players.

My measure was NOT to identify the team who won more titles; Titles are important but my interest is always in who is the strongest among the top players. So, I stick to their H-2-H stats. (Any other alternatives for the measures?)

I will try to get back with more recent stats about that.

P.S. the reason esp. the INA fans were so upset was because I revealed the stats that the Kindra has never beaten this KOR team since 2008 until now; whenever they met, KOR always won. So, people kept extracting the Danes but that is now history if you check recent records.

[ctjcad]

As always Chris, the stats are there and it's not even clear that any pair (let alone Kido/Hendra or Jung/Lee or Fu/Cai for that matter) was dominant enough in 2008.

Kido/Hendra -- 4 Super Series titles + Beijing Olympics Gold
Jung/Lee -- 4 Super Series titles
Fairuz/Zakry -- 2 Super Series titles
the rest of the SS titles were shared by Fu/Cai and Paaske/Rasmussen.

From head-to-head, Kido/Hendra did lose 3 matches to Jung/Lee (including one in the Thomas Cup and Super Series Masters Final), but, Jung/Lee also lost two consecutive times to Paaske/Rasmussen (again in the Thomas Cup and the Beijing Olympics 2008 first round).

So, can u say that any pair is dominant enough?

..you read too fast & replied too fast....Please read my post again..-

OK. It originally started in my intention to investigate that "WHO IS THE STRONGEST MD TEAM IN THE WORLD?" and I have always talked on the measure of "H-2-H stats" among the top ranked MD players.

My measure was NOT to identify the team who won more titles; Titles are important but my interest is always in who is the strongest among the top players. So, I stick to their H-2-H stats. (Any other alternatives for the measures?)

I will try to get back with more recent stats about that.

..your arguing partners are focusing on your constant use of the word "dominant". Please redefine your term of "dominance". Personally, i look at the results, head to head included, as a sign of "dominance"..

[badMania]

Once again Chris, I highlighted your updated post, which I am not sure there's any diff with your previous post.

Winning most of their SS tourneys and racking up arguably more MD titles & better results than any MD pairs.

This surely isn't true??? Both Kido/Hendra and Jung/Lee have the same SS titles. Kido/Hendra even won the coveted Beijing Olympic title. I personally won't mind the inferior head-to-head stats (esp one in team-event and one in a year-ending event) as long as the INA pair won the more important titles.

It's just the same analogy as Nadal holds the 4-0 stats over Federer in the French Open, but, this year, Nadal got beaten by another player and eventually its Federer who achieve the Grand Slams!

Interestingly, as our resident KOR fan here confirmed yet again, titles ARE NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL in his definition of "dominance", a pt that surely will raise much debate

[narnia]

..you read too fast & replied too fast....Please read my post again..-

..your arguing partners are focusing on your constant use of the word "dominant". Please redefine your term of "dominance". Personally, i look at the results, head to head included, as a sign of "dominance"..

I have already written quite a lot clearly on the definitions in this thread, you can just search them. Many people don't read it correctly and argue with misunderstanding of my original interests and measure.

Quantatatively, JJS/LYD has super stats in H-2-H among the tops.

Qualitatively, you should watch their plays against the top-ranked players to FEEL it. I always enjoy watching those MD games in video repeatedly in slow mode with analytical perspective.

[ctjcad]

...
This surely isn't true??? Both Kido/Hendra and Jung/Lee have the same SS titles. Kido/Hendra even won the coveted Beijing Olympic title. I personally won't mind the inferior head-to-head stats (esp one in team-event and one in a year-ending event) as long as the INA pair won the more important titles.
...

- Are you sure JJS & LYD only won 4 titles, yes, i'm looking at all the titles they won, not only SS titles.
- Have you checked JJS & LYD's results/finishes in the tourneys they competed in, in comparison to other MD pairs??

I have already written quite a lot clearly on the definitions in this thread, you can just search them. Many people don't read it correctly and argue with misunderstanding of my original interests and measure.

Quantatatively, JJS/LYD has super stats in H-2-H among the tops.

Qualitatively, you should watch their plays against the top-ranked players to FEEL it. I always enjoy watching those MD games in video repeatedly in slow mode with analytical perspective.

- I personally look past a pair's head-to-head record and look at the results in the tourneys they've participated in.
To ask you a theoretical question, would you take LYD & JJS' 12-0 head-to-head record vs. Markis Kido and Hendra Setiawan but have 0 titles, say over a yr?? Or would you take a 6-6 head-to-head record but have more titles to speak for??..Remember they are playing against a lot of other pairs and the only way we, at least i, can judge their "dominance" is to look at their tourneys' results/where they finish.
- Yes, i've watched their matches/plays against top-ranked players as well as low-ranked players. But no, i don't watch those games repeatedly in slo-mo because i have other things to do (like sleep and more sleep).

[eaglehelang]

- Are you sure JJS & LYD only won 4 titles, yes, i'm looking at all the titles they won, not only SS titles.
- Have you checked JJS & LYD's results/finishes in the tourneys they competed in, in comparison to other MD pairs??

ctjcad, please look thru the earlier pages, maybe between 10 to 20. Earlier this year I did a percentage of : SS titles won/number of SS tourneys participated, total titles won/total tournaments participated, for 2008.
But for our narnia, H-2-H is most important, even after the % were up, which baffles most of us.

[badMania]

- Are you sure JJS & LYD only won 4 titles, yes, i'm looking at all the titles they won, not only SS titles.
- Have you checked JJS & LYD's results/finishes in the tourneys they competed in, in comparison to other MD pairs??

Since I am bored by the WS match, let me attempt to answer your question:
JUNG JAE SUNG/LEE YONG DAE
Total Titles in a GP tourney and above for year 2008: 5
4 SS titles and oh...the Badminton Asia Championships GP Gold that Kido/Hendra also won this year
They also won the Korean International Challenge 2009 but that tourney is more for upcoming pairs, so, you cannot really count that in eh?

Finishes in the other tourneys:
Olympics Games -- R16 (lost to Paaske/Rasmussen)
India GP Gold -- Runners-Up (lost to Guo/Xie, no Kido/Hendra in that tourney)
German Open GP -- Runners-Up (lost to Lee/Hwang, no Kido/Hendra in that tourney)
Korea SS -- QF (lost to Luluk/Alvent)
Malaysia SS -- R16 (lost to Mollyhus/Kristiansen)

MARKIS KIDO/HENDRA SETIAWAN
Total Titles in a GP tourney and above for year 2008: 5
4 SS titles and the Beijing Olympics Gold.

Finishes in the other tourneys:
Hong Kong SS -- QF (Kido's knees injury flared up again and I watched the QF loss to Koo/Tan...very painful to watch indeed )
Japan SS -- QF (lost to Rian/Yoke, no Jung/Lee in that tourney)
Indonesia SS -- QF (lost to Tony/Candra, no Jung/Lee in that tourney)
Swiss SS -- Runners-up (lost to Jung/Lee)
Korea SS -- R16 (lost to Paaske/Rasmussen)

So, any conclusion u can draw from the stats???

[ctjcad]

ctjcad, please look thru the earlier pages, maybe between 10 to 20. Earlier this year I did a percentage of : SS titles won/number of SS tourneys participated, total titles won/total tournaments participated, for 2008.
But for our narnia, H-2-H is most important, even after the % were up, which baffles most of us.

..i've seen & remember those stats, certainly (you think i don't read all the threads, eh??). Thank you for providing those.
I think if one is to talk abt LYD & JJS' "dominance", one can't discount their results. Afterall, results are what people/critics are looking at. Head-to-head record is nice and dandy, but if at the end they end up with a goose egg in their bag, then what's the meaning of the head-to-head record? Remember, they are playing against many other pairs.

Since I am bored by the WS match, let me attempt to answer your question:
JUNG JAE SUNG/LEE YONG DAE
Total Titles in a GP tourney and above for year 2008: 5
4 SS titles and oh...the Badminton Asia Championships GP Gold that Kido/Hendra also won this year
They also won the Korean International Challenge 2009 but that tourney is more for upcoming pairs, so, you cannot really count that in eh?

Finishes in the other tourneys:
Olympics Games -- R16 (lost to Paaske/Rasmussen)
India GP Gold -- Runners-Up (lost to Guo/Xie, no Kido/Hendra in that tourney)
German Open GP -- Runners-Up (lost to Lee/Hwang, no Kido/Hendra in that tourney)
Korea SS -- QF (lost to Luluk/Alvent)
Malaysia SS -- R16 (lost to Mollyhus/Kristiansen)

MARKIS KIDO/HENDRA SETIAWAN
Total Titles in a GP tourney and above for year 2008: 5
4 SS titles and the Beijing Olympics Gold.

Finishes in the other tourneys:
Hong Kong SS -- QF (Kido's knees injury flared up again and I watched the QF loss to Koo/Tan...very painful to watch indeed )
Japan SS -- QF (lost to Rian/Yoke, no Jung/Lee in that tourney)
Indonesia SS -- QF (lost to Tony/Candra, no Jung/Lee in that tourney)
Swiss SS -- Runners-up (lost to Jung/Lee)
Korea SS -- R16 (lost to Paaske/Rasmussen)

So, any conclusion u can draw from the stats???

- I certainly would count the other 2 tourneys, small as they are. Afterall, if they were to not win, what would the critics say??
- You forgot to add MK & HS' 2008 All England nightmare finish @ R32.
- Conclusion? Well, personally i could care less abt what narnia deemed by "domination". Let alone get worked-up over that term because in fact LYD & JJS did have a pretty respectful record in 2008. Plus there's no other pair who had a better record or results than JJS & LYD. Now, if their record and results don't reflect much, then i'd question the term "dominance".

[badMania]

- I certainly would count the other 2 tourneys, small as they are. Afterall, if they were to not win, what would the critics say??
- You forgot to add MK & HS' All England nightmare finish @ R32.

In that case, make it 6 titles (4 SS, 1 GP Gold, and 1 Int Challenge) for Jung/Lee (although the last tourney is kinda National Championships for Korea with only 4 foreign pairs in the draw).

Oh...I forgot abt that small bit

[narnia]

- I personally look past a pair's head-to-head record and look at the results in the tourneys they've participated in.
To ask you a theoretical question, would you take LYD & JJS' 12-0 head-to-head record vs. Markis Kido and Hendra Setiawan but have 0 titles, say over a yr?? Or would you take a 6-6 head-to-head record but have more titles to speak for??..Remember they are playing against a lot of other pairs and the only way we, at least i, can judge their "dominance" is to look at their tourneys' results/where they finish.

Let me get back to my original question:

Who is the strongest player in MS? LD or LCW?

One way is just to look up the Current WR on BWF site as it counts recent 1 year round tourneys. Then, LCW is the stronger than LD let alone the title names they acquired (I count their points or stats). You may agree or not to this system.

Then, who is the strongest team in MD? Kindo/Setiawan or JJS/LYD?

The same dilemma like in MS due to the nature of the BWF Ranking system.

So, I only counted the H-2-H stats among the top-ranked players. Surely, top-ranked players sometimes lose to low-ranked players but that does not happen consistently.

Any problem in "my" measure to investigate my "original" curiosity?

(As I always mentioned, everybody can make their own standards.)

[narnia]

In that case, make it 6 titles (4 SS, 1 GP Gold, and 1 Int Challenge) for Jung/Lee (although the last tourney is kinda National Championships for Korea with only 4 foreign pairs in the draw).

Oh...I forgot abt that small bit

I'm not sure you counted the team tournaments.

[narnia]

Why are Kido/Setiawan losing to ENG Anthony/Nathan, who has never beaten JJS/LYD? (Maybe due to the knee problem of Kido; he really should take rest for his knee.)

JJS/LYD has beaten the ENG team in recent two tourneys consecutively: 2009 MAS, 2008 HK.

I'm counting the stats among the tops.

[ctjcad]

Let me get back to my original question:

Who is the strongest player in MS? LD or LCW?

One way is just to look up the Current WR on BWF site as it counts recent 1 year round tourneys. Then, LCW is the stronger than LD let alone the title names they acquired (I count their points or stats). You may agree or not to this system.

Then, who is the strongest team in MD? Kindo/Setiawan or JJS/LYD?

The same dilemma like in MS due to the nature of the BWF Ranking system.

So, I only counted the H-2-H stats among the top-ranked players. Surely, top-ranked players sometimes lose to low-ranked players but that does not happen consistently.
...

Who is the strongest MS player or MD pair?? Well, for that, i have to look at their record, results and how many titles they've won in tourneys. Certainly, one can use the BWF ranking as a barometer of how strong a certain player/pair is. But the current #1 may not have more titles than the current #3. Does that mean the #1 player/pair is more or less dominating? The current #1 could also have played in more tourneys in comparison to the current #3, thus accumulating more ranking pts.
At the moment, the BWF MD ranking (if it's correct) shows Kido & Setiawan as current #1. Do you think they are a "dominant" pair, simply by their ranking?? or simply by their head-to-head record?? or simply by the number of titles they've won? or a mix of all of the above??..

I'm not sure you counted the team tournaments.

...
I'm counting the stats among the tops.

..okay, since i know you love counting stats and all and enjoy dissecting stats/details, i just have a simple request for you to do, which hopefully won't be too much of a hassle (not sure if this had been posted earlier).
And that request is, if you could please provide & list the head-to-head record of LYD & JJS vs. the other top 10 MD pairs, just from 2008, for us to see, i'd appreciate it. That way, i/we can see & compare their H-2-H record. Thanks.

[badMania]

Well, sad about the loss, but not unexpected given that INA MD pairs (esp Kido/Hendra) have always find it awkward to play ENG pairs They had lost to Clark/Blair quite a few times...surprising but well it did happen.

Unlike facing Paaske/Rasmussen or the CHN pairs whom Kido/Hendra have beaten regularly

[narnia]

..okay, since i know you love counting stats and all and enjoy dissecting stats/details, i just have a simple request for you to do, which hopefully won't be too much of a hassle (not sure if this had been posted earlier).
And that request is, if you could please provide & list the head-to-head record of LYD & JJS vs. the other top 10 MD pairs, just from 2008, for us to see, i'd appreciate it. That way, i/we can see & compare their H-2-H record. Thanks.

Lol~ As you like it, I'll get back with recent stats later. Anyone can do this job if they want.

p.s. you don't seem to know much about the BWF Ranking system; in the meantime I recommend you to check it out fully.

[ctjcad]

..afterall, i want you to prove to us that LYD & JJS are really a "dominating" pair simply by their head-to-head record against the other top pairs...

BWF ranking?? A player/pair wins or collects pts and they all add up to reflect their ranking. What more do i need to know? And your point??..

*scratching my head & wondering why am i all of a sudden immersed in this thread*??..