BAM warns Mohd Hafiz Hashim & Kuan Beng Hong

[Pemuda]

*badadum, i think the MAS folks get it.

hehehehehe

[badadum]

*badadum, i think the MAS folks get it.

Hence the request for them to share their view.

[chris-ccc]

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ctjcad ... If the selection of players is to be as simple as:

... wouldn't it be simpler just by looking at the tournaments' results/accomplishments ...

then, HH and KBH would stay longer.

This is because, currently, the players in my quote do not have results/accomplishments better than HH's and KBH's.

Sooner or later, these MAS Singles players will be replacing HH and KBH as preferred selection, namely;
Chong Wei Feng
Mohd Arif Abdul Latif
Liew Daren

At training sessions, if the quoted players can consistently defeat HH and KBH, then we can expect Misbun to replace HH and KBH ASAP. But HH and KBH are still more skillful than them.

At international tournaments, within the next few months, we will still expect HH and KBH to achieve better results than those younger players. But let's see.

Conclusion:
So if it is based on just results/accomplishments, then we would expect Misbun to tell BAM that HH and KBH can stay.
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[chris-ccc]

Hence the request for them to share their view.

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Actually, the topic of the decision from a coach to include or to exclude players is quite interesting. Different coaches have different views on it. And sometimes players are very badly affected by some decisions.

Just look at LYB's decisions... see how they affected some CHN players.

I am sure many coaches/captains of Badminton teams in schools are reading our views here. Yes, everybody want to play for their school, so how do we select them? I have seen top school players producing excellent results being excluded because of disciplinary reasons. And I have seen average players selected just because their coaches thought they have potential.

The truth is there is no correct answer. Different coaches have different ways of selecting players.


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[koo_fan]

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ctjcad ... If the selection of players is to be as simple as:

then, HH and KBH would stay longer.

This is because, currently, the players in my quote do not have results/accomplishments better than HH's and KBH's.

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Their results will appeared to be better because the juniors are rarely selected to be in the tournaments rather than them.You can expect the statistics of their results.
Hafiz and Tsuen Seng are our top seed and what BAm is trying to do now is to remove them from the list,and replace them with others.
And the conditions to stay is given.
So,Yes.Follow the flow.If the selected tour is the last chance, i'd be ready to let them go.But of course i've prayed for them.

[ctjcad]

Hence the request for them to share their view.

..well, so far we have:
1. 2 MAS BCers giving their opinion(s).
2. While the rest probably either don't care or already know what to expect from HH & KBH and are just waiting for the final verdict; thus why waste another post..

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ctjcad ... If the selection of players is to be as simple as:

then, HH and KBH would stay longer.

This is because, currently, the players in my quote do not have results/accomplishments better than HH's and KBH's.

At training sessions, if the quoted players can consistently defeat HH and KBH, then we can expect Misbun to replace HH and KBH ASAP. But HH and KBH are still more skillful than them.

At international tournaments, within the next few months, we will still expect HH and KBH to achieve better results than those younger players. But let's see.

Conclusion:
So if it is based on just results/accomplishments, then we would expect Misbun to tell BAM that HH and KBH can stay.
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..i am completely speechless after reading this...

Looks like chris@ccc has taken training session results as a basis to keep HH & KBH in the national team.

If it's simply "At training sessions, if the younger players can consistently defeat HH and KBH, then we can expect Misbun to replace HH and KBH ASAP. But HH and KBH are still more skillful than them."..

My responses are :
1. "So??..What have they done lately in real international tournaments?" (still waiting for chris@ccc's data)..
2. If HH & KBH are "really skillful than the juniors" then why the current "warning" from BAM??

Further:

1. Does sparring or training results really tell how good a player is once s/he competes in real international tourneys??..
2. How in the world can we compare 2 players who have been playing in more tourneys to their younger counterparts who haven't competed in as many tourneys as HH & KBH??..
3. So, by saying "if it is based on just results/accomplishments, then we would expect Misbun to tell BAM that HH and KBH can stay", essentially it's saying HH's & KBH's performance in those tourneys are acceptable & they can stay further??....
4. Again, back to the old saying or maybe a Janet Jackson's song's lyric "What have you done for me, lately?"..

As a response to the conclusion:
I am referring to results/accomplishments of tournaments they've played in. Not some training/sparring session's results.

Looks like koo_fan probably understands this "warning from BAM" more...

[chris-ccc]

..well, so far we have:
1. 2 MAS BCers giving their opinion(s).
2. While the rest probably either don't care or already know what to expect from HH & KBH and are just waiting for the final verdict; thus why waste another post..

..i am completely speechless after reading this...

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Make it 3 ... because I am also a MAS BCer, but residing in Melbourne, Australia.

Looks like chris@ccc has taken training session results as a basis to keep HH & KBH in the national team.

If it's simply "At training sessions, if the younger players can consistently defeat HH and KBH, then we can expect Misbun to replace HH and KBH ASAP. But HH and KBH are still more skillful than them."..

My responses are :
1. "So??..What have they done lately in real international tournaments?"
2. If HH & KBH are "really skillful than the juniors" then why the current "warning" from BAM??

Correct, IMHO the reason why BAM complained about HH and KBH is because BAM think that they can do better for MAS, not only at international results for Malaysia's name, but also in internal training sessions as well.

This is why it is not a simple matter and it is not easy for Misbun to decide. On one hand, MIsbun knows that HH and KBH can produce better results than the others at international events, but on the other hand, at training, the others show more enthusiasm than HH and KBH (so I've been told).

Further:

1. Does sparring or training results really tell how good a player is one s/he competes in real international tourneys??..

Most likely YES than NO.

2. How in the world can we compare 2 players who have been playing in more tourneys to their younger counterparts who haven't competed in as many tourneys as HH & KBH??..

It's been reported that MAS younger counterparts will be given more chances to represent MAS in the future. We can only wait and see if they can do better that HH and KBH.

IMHO, the younger ones are not ready yet, but we should give them a chance to try.

3. So, by saying "if it is based on just results/accomplishments, then we would expect Misbun to tell BAM that HH and KBH can stay", essentially HH's & KBH's performance in those tourneys are acceptable & they can stay further??....

We shall wait and see.

4. Again, back to the old adage or maybe a Janet Jackson's lyrics "What have you done for me, lately?"..

That's exactly it. What have HH and KBH done or not done, in terms of both international results and in internal preparation to international tournaments for the MAS Team? I am sure Misbun is asking that question 24/7.

I am referring to results/accomplishments of tournaments they've played in. Not some training/sparring session's results.

BAM is hoping for both. Not only that international results are important, but also internal strength and unity.

On this note: Would you say that LYB and ZM have done the wrong thing for China?

Looks like koo_fan probably understands this "warning from BAM" more...

koo_fan said it's best for the younger ones to enter more competitions, instead of sending HH and KBH most of the time.

We shall now wait and see.

Personally, I think it's time for HH and KBH to go. But Misbun will make the final decision.
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[ctjcad]

So now you acknowledge that HH & KBH "can do better" and/or "can produce better" results in international tourneys. No matter what they do in training/sparring sessions, internal strength & unity etc., at the end of the day it is the international tourneys' results that count. They are being sent and they must produce. Thus it is a simple matter to decide. Heck even most of the MAS BCers can see their results.

As for your answer of "Does sparring or training results really tell how good a player is one s/he competes in real international tourneys?
Most likely YES than NO.", i take it the training results have been the same if not equal to their international tourneys' results?

Why would Misbun ask the question of "What have HH and KBH done or not done, in terms of both international results and in internal preparation to international tournaments for the MAS Team?" when he saw the results, himself.
As for finding out their international results, heck, he even can google over to BWF's website to find out. Even chris@ccc can find out their results online. What is there to think about? 24/7?...

As for the question of : "Would you say that LYB and ZM have done the wrong thing for China?". My answer is, there are possibly several factors for the decision to let ZM go. On that note, i think we shall leave that discussion out of this thread as it's not related to the current thread topic.

I guess i'll just ask these questions, which haven't been answered:

1. Same question back, what results/accomplishments have HH & KBH done in their international tourneys? Any datas to show? I've given my datas for their last 10 tourneys (courtesy of BWF's website).

2. How long have HH & KBH been in the National squad?

3. And if KBH & HH are really "more skillful than their juniors" why is BAM giving both a "warning" by certain tournament? Shouldn't their "more skillful talent" last them to stay in the national squad?

[Oldhand]

Here's another look at the quandary Misbun is in:

At the 2008 Singapore Open:
- Tan Chun Seang beat China's Gong Weijie and Korea's Hong Ji Hoon... and then fought a noteworthy 3-game battle against Peter Gade. Yes, TCS lost... but quite honourably 10-21 21-17 19-21
- Kuan Beng Hong scalped team-mate Roslin Hashim and Thailand's Boonsak Ponsana before falling to an inspired Andrew Smith of England

At last month's Malaysia Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong took a game off Korea's Park Sung-Hwan. Around the same time, Hafiz Hashim embarrassed himself against Indonesia's Simon Santoso. First game - just 5 points for the former All England champion (Um, HH doubled his take in the second game!)

A while later, at the Korea Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong managed 12 and 16 against Simon Santoso... almost twice what the senior Malaysian managed.

Additionally: At the Macau Open 2008, Kuan Beng Hong beat grandmaster Wong Choong Hann (and also Vietnam's Nguyen Tien Minh). That isn't something Hafiz Hashim could hope to do against even a retired Choong Hann.

In essence, I'd suggest the active Kuan Beng Hong retain his place on the team while the passive Hafiz Hashim make way for someone with a more determined streak... perhaps Tan Chun Seang

[chris-ccc]

So now you acknowledge that HH & KBH "can do better" and/or "can produce better" results in international tourneys. No matter what they do in training/sparring sessions, internal strength & unity etc., at the end of the day it is the international tourneys' results that count. They are being sent and they must produce. Thus it is a simple matter to decide. Heck even most of the MAS BCers can see their results.

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Yes... Currently, even though HH and KBH are not doing well at international tournaments, they are still doing better than their teammates.

No... Currently, most MAS BCers are hoping that more MAS 'up-and-coming' players can produce better international results (compared to HH's and KBH's). Only when this happens, then it's time for HH and KBH to go.

BTW, I would hope that more MAS 'up-and-coming' players can be exposed to more international tournaments, instead of HH an KBH taking the majority of them.

This I would say to BAM: Please allow MAS 'up-and-coming' players to prove themselves.

As for your answer of "Does sparring or training results really tell how good a player is one s/he competes in real international tourneys?"

Most likely YES than NO.", i take it the training results have been the same if not equal to their international tourneys' results?

If HH and/or KBH can defeat most MAS 'up-and-coming' players at this moment of time, why should HH and KBH be replaced by them? Let's also look at HH's and KBH's views.

Why would Misbun ask the question of "What have HH and KBH done or not done, in terms of both international results and in internal preparation to international tournaments for the MAS Team?" when he saw the results, himself.

As for finding out their international results, heck, he even can google over to BWF's website to find out. Even chris@ccc can find out their results online. What is there to think about? 24/7?...

It's repeated here: Because no younger MAS 'up-and-coming' players can produce better results than HH and KBH. It's all done in 'COMPARISON' between all MAS teammates.

As for the question of : "Would you say that LYB and ZM have done the wrong thing for China?". My answer is, there are possibly several factors for the decision to let ZM go. On that note, i think we shall leave that discussion out of this thread as it's not related to the current thread topic.

That's exactly it. Misbun should look at several factors before he makes the decision to let HH and KBH go. Therefore, it's not a simple matter.

I guess i'll just ask these questions, which haven't been answered:

1. Same question back, what results/accomplishments have HH & KBH done in their international tourneys? Any datas to show? I've given my datas for their last 10 tourneys (courtesy of BWF's website).

2. How long have HH & KBH been in the National squad?

3. And if KBH & HH are really "more skillful than their juniors" why is BAM giving both a "warning" by certain tournament? Shouldn't their "more skillful talent" last them to stay in the national squad?

Answers:
1. HH & KBH have done lousy in their international tourneys. But they are still better than what have been achieved by other MAS 'up-and-coming' players.

2. It doesn't matter how long a player has been in the National squad. This is never a factor invloved.

3. Because BAM think that KBH & HH are not working hard enough.
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[ctjcad]

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No... Currently, most MAS BCers are hoping that more MAS 'up-and-coming' players can produce better international results (compared to HH's and KBH's). Only when this happens, then it's time for HH and KBH to go.
...
If HH and/or KBH can defeat most MAS 'up-and-coming' players at this moment of time, why should HH and KBH be replaced by them? Let's also look at HH's and KBH's views.
...
That's exactly it. Misbun should look at several factors before he makes the decision to let HH and KBH go. Therefore, it's not a simple matter.

Answers:
1. HH & KBH have done lousy in their international tourneys. But they are still better than what have been achieved by other MAS 'up-and-coming' players.

2. It doesn't matter how long a player has been in the National squad. This is never a factor invloved.

3. Because BAM think that KBH & HH are not working hard enough.

1. I was referring "their results" as in HH's & KBH's results. Not the other MAS younger players' results. I'm sure most MAS BCers know how HH's & KBH's results look like.

2. Well, that's exactly the question of why is BAM giving both HH & KBH a "warning" now? My answer is, because BAM wants to see what they can do in the next few tournaments to justify & retain their spot in the national team.

3. Don't want to get into this, but can you really relate ZM's passage with HH's & KBH's passage??
As far as i can remember, ZM didn't participate in any major competition in 2006 (she had to deal w/injuries). But when she did, she definitely did better with the opportunities she had in comparison to both KBH & HH. On the other hand, both KBH and HH had been given ample opportunities to compete & show what they can do but look at their results.
http://internationalbadminton.org/pl...?playerid=7821 (Zhou Mi's data)
It's simple because one just needs to look at their results.
ZM didn't leave the National team because of her performance, but rather mostly because of other factors.
While HH's & KBH's fate will be determined by their performance, yes, esp. in their upcoming tourneys.

Thank you for answering them.
4. Glad you are acknowledging their results. But, if, as you wrote a few times that they're "better", really, how much "better" are KBH & HH compared to the MAS juniors?? Any titles to show for?..
Btw, i don't see any stats/datas on HH's & KBH's training/sparring results on BWF's website, have you?? Does BWF keep track of those stats? Anyone else sees them??..

5. The reason why i asked the 2nd question is to show how much ample opportunities BAM has given to HH & KBH. Yet, for all the time and opportunities given to both, what have they shown?? What have they done for me, err, for BAM, lately??..
Like Pemuda has repeatedly harped on, doesn't the National team use the taxpayer's money to sponsor them? All those money spent, yet...

6. If so, do tell me/us, in your opinion, how and on what basis does BAM think KBH & HH are not working hard enough?..

Hmmm, maybe i should give Pemuda a ring and ask him to chime in, in this thread......oh, he did already (post #8)

*Oldhand, Pemuda might say it's all good & dandy with KBH's results, but what other titles has he got to show other than his Mickey Mou.., eerr, Malaysia International Open title??..

[limsy]

Here's another look at the quandary Misbun is in:

At the 2008 Singapore Open:
- Tan Chun Seang beat China's Gong Weijie and Korea's Hong Ji Hoon... and then fought a noteworthy 3-game battle against Peter Gade. Yes, TCS lost... but quite honourably 10-21 21-17 19-21
- Kuan Beng Hong scalped team-mate Roslin Hashim and Thailand's Boonsak Ponsana before falling to an inspired Andrew Smith of England

At last month's Malaysia Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong took a game off Korea's Park Sung-Hwan. Around the same time, Hafiz Hashim embarrassed himself against Indonesia's Simon Santoso. First game - just 5 points for the former All England champion (Um, HH doubled his take in the second game!)

A while later, at the Korea Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong managed 12 and 16 against Simon Santoso... almost twice what the senior Malaysian managed.

Additionally: At the Macau Open 2008, Kuan Beng Hong beat grandmaster Wong Choong Hann (and also Vietnam's Nguyen Tien Minh). That isn't something Hafiz Hashim could hope to do against even a retired Choong Hann.

In essence, I'd suggest the active Kuan Beng Hong retain his place on the team while the passive Hafiz Hashim make way for someone with a more determined streak... perhaps Tan Chun Seang

no credit for liew daren beat bp and chong wei feng beat chen jin?

[chris-ccc]

1. I was referring "their results" as in HH's & KBH's results. Not the other MAS younger players' results. I'm sure most MAS BCers know how HH's & KBH's results look like.

2. Well, that's exactly the question of why is BAM giving both HH & KBH a "warning" now? My answer is, because BAM wants to see what they can do in the next few tournaments to justify & retain their spot in the national team.

3. Don't want to get into this, but can you really relate ZM's passage with HH's & KBH's passage??
As far as i can remember, ZM didn't participate in any major competition in 2006 (she had to deal w/injuries). But when she did, she definitely did better with the opportunities she had in comparison to both KBH & HH. On the other hand, both KBH and HH had been given ample opportunities to compete & show what they can do but look at their results.
http://internationalbadminton.org/pl...?playerid=7821 (Zhou Mi's data)
It's simple because one just needs to look at their results.
ZM didn't leave the National team because of her performance, but rather mostly because of other factors.
While HH's & KBH's fate will be determined by their performance, yes, esp. in their upcoming tourneys.

Thank you for answering them.
4. Glad you are acknowledging their results. But, if, as you wrote a few times that they're "better", really, how much "better" are KBH & HH compared to the MAS juniors?? Any titles to show for?..
Btw, i don't see any stats/datas on HH's & KBH's training/sparring results on BWF's website, have you?? Does BWF keep track of those stats? Anyone else sees them??..

5. The reason why i asked the 2nd question is to show how much ample opportunities BAM has given to HH & KBH. Yet, for all the time and opportunities given to both, what have they shown?? What have they done for me, err, for BAM, lately??..
Like Pemuda has repeatedly harped on, doesn't the National team use the taxpayer's money to sponsor them? All those money spent, yet...

6. If so, do tell me/us, in your opinion, how and on what basis does BAM think KBH & HH are not working hard enough?..

Hmmm, maybe i should give Pemuda a ring and ask him to chime in, in this thread......oh, he did already (post #8)

*Oldhand, Pemuda might say it's all good & dandy with KBH's results, but what other titles has he got to show other than his Mickey Mou.., eerr, Malaysia International Open title??..

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ctjcad ... What was written in the title bar of your above post is ^^It's a grind, but getting there..^^.

But sadly, we won't be getting there.
Because there are 2 main differences in our opinions.

Your opinion: We need only to look at their bad results at International tournaments.
My opinion: We need to look at many different factors other than just tournament results.

Your opinion: If they are not doing well at International tournaments, they should go.
My opinion: They should go only when younger players have become as skillful as them.

The truth is there is no correct answer. Different coaches have different ways of selecting players.

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[koo_fan]

Chris vs Chris,huh?
ChrisCCC,if you hoped Misbun would take a concern on other aspects as well.Have the last word.U are entitled for it.

I'm with the other Chris on this.If they want their position in our top team,make sure they are fit for it.
This should be done by do-or-die approachment.

[Oldhand]

no credit for liew daren beat bp and chong wei feng beat chen jin?

Unfortunately, their major success record has only these two wins.
That doesn't say much about their ability to win big consistently

[chris-ccc]

Chris vs Chris,huh?

ChrisCCC,if you hoped Misbun would take a concern on other aspects as well.Have the last word.U are entitled for it.

I'm with the other Chris on this.If they want their position in our top team,make sure they are fit for it.

This should be done by do-or-die approachment.

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koo_fan ... What I know about the MAS team is that there is an internal ranking or standing in terms of performance at their training camp. HH and KBH are still ranked higher than most of the younger ones. If the younger ones can topple HH and KBH at their training camp, then HH and KBH should not be there.

Let us look at these 4 different scenarios (talking about International tournament results):

(1) If HH and KBH go, and the younger ones do well at International tournaments, then BAM/Misbun have done it right

(2) If HH and KBH go, and the younger ones don't well at International tournaments, then BAM/Misbun have failed

(3) If HH and KBH stay, and the younger ones don't well at International tournaments, then BAM/Misbun will still put pressure on HH and KBH

(4) If HH and KBH stay, and the younger ones do well at International tournaments, then BAM/Misbun will definitely have to allow the younger ones to take over


By the way, sooner or later, HH and KBH would have to go because of their age. But when BAM put a time frame limit for Misbun to make his recommendation (within the next few months), only Misbun would have sleepless nights.
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[ctjcad]

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ctjcad ... What was written in the title bar of your above post is ^^It's a grind, but getting there..^^.

But sadly, we won't be getting there.
Because there are 2 main differences in our opinions.

Your opinion: We need only to look at their bad results at International tournaments.
My opinion: We need to look at many different factors other than just tournament results.

Your opinion: If they are not doing well at International tournaments, they should go.
My opinion: They should go only when younger players have become as skillful as them.


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It is fine about the "Your opinion" and "My opinion" replies, that's fine by me. I understand & i don't mind. Here's a teh tarik for ya..

Correction on the first one. I definitely did not mention "let look at the 'bad' results". I only mention, let's look at their results/accomplishments.
You are spot-on, on the second one. Do you really want to keep players who are not performing or showing any progress, not over 1 yr but several yrs??..

But before we are off to our own ways on this topic, do you mind expounding or giving your answer on the 2 questions in my post above?

1. But, if, as you wrote a few times that HH & KBH are "better" or doing "better" than their younger teammates, really, how much "better" are KBH & HH compared to the MAS juniors?? Any titles to show for?..

2. If you think BAM doesn't think KBH & HH are not working hard enough, do tell me/us, in your opinion, how and on what basis does BAM think KBH & HH are not working hard enough?..

No matter how different coaches have their own ways/little set of criterias of selecting players, i'm sure you and others know & acknowledge the bottom line is the player's results in the tournaments they've been sent to (other than a having personal or injury reasons). Heck, even BAM realizes this, thus the whole point of their current "warning".

And why would Misbun have sleepless nights?? I'm sure he can judge by what he sees; after all both HH & KBH are not newcomers. Shouldn't HH & KBH be the ones who should have sleepless nights as they're the ones being "warned" by BAM??..

*koo_fan, maybe my point in all this might come across as a bit vague. All i was trying to figure out is why is BAM giving a warning to HH & KBH and setting a timetable for those 2 players for a review? There must be some reason behind it. But you probably saw it from a mile away.