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  1. #86
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Until the younger ones can topple HH and KBH, HH and KBH should stay

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    It is fine about the "Your opinion" and "My opinion" replies, that's fine by me. I understand & i don't mind. Here's a teh tarik for ya..

    .
    Yes, the "Your opinion" and "My opinion" reply was meant to make clearer what we are discussing. Sometimes we bring in other things, and our discussion goes nowhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    Correction on the first one. I definitely did not mention "let look at the 'bad' results". I only mention, let's look at their results/accomplishments.

    See, here is an example. Every one can tell that HH and KBH have not been doing well at International tournaments, therefore 'bad' results. My comment on this is that even though their results are bad, I don't think the younger ones can do any better at the present moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    You are spot-on, on the second one. Do you really want to keep players who are not performing or showing any progress, not over 1 yr but several yrs??

    Until the younger ones can topple HH and KBH, HH and KBH should stay, IMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    But before we are off to our own ways on this topic, do you mind expounding or giving your answer on the 2 questions in my post above?

    1. But, if, as you wrote a few times that HH & KBH are "better" or doing "better" than their younger teammates, really, how much "better" are KBH & HH compared to the MAS juniors?? Any titles to show for?..

    2. If you think BAM doesn't think KBH & HH are not working hard enough, do tell me/us, in your opinion, how and on what basis does BAM think KBH & HH are not working hard enough?..

    1. Both HH and KBH, and the younger teammates do not have any titles to show lately. But when these players play each other, HH and KBH still stay on top. As it was mentioned before, if the younger ones can topple HH and KBH in matches amongst themselves, then it will be easier for BAM/Misbun to make decisions, that is, it's time for HH and KBH to go.

    2. Again, this is very subjective. BAM (including Misbun and myself) think that HH and KBH can do better. But they have repeatedly let us down. Therefore BAM is saying that HH and KBH are not working hard enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    No matter how different coaches have their own ways/little set of criterias of selecting players, i'm sure you and others know & acknowledge the bottom line is the player's results in the tournaments they've been sent to (other than a having personal or injury reasons). Heck, even BAM realizes this, thus the whole point of their current "warning".

    In many countries their National No.1 (including your USA) get no good results. Is it better for countries to sack their National No.1 and replace them with their No.2, 3, etc... every year?
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    And why would Misbun have sleepless nights?? I'm sure he can judge by what he sees; after all both HH & KBH are not newcomers. Shouldn't HH & KBH be the ones who should have sleepless nights as they're the ones being "warned" by BAM??..

    Because Misbun knows that HH and KBH can do better.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 02-05-2009 at 07:39 PM.

  2. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Until the younger ones can topple HH and KBH, HH and KBH should stay, IMHO.

    .

    still no one can beat kbh in term of stamina...i think......and no one can beat hh on creative return(ie send shutter out side double line......joke)...not many mj can return hh smash...

  3. #88
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Okie dokie..

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    ...
    Until the younger ones can topple HH and KBH, HH and KBH should stay, IMHO.
    ...
    In many countries their National No.1 (including your USA) get no good results. Is it better for countries to sack their National No.1 and replace them with their No.2, 3, etc... every year?
    ...
    Because Misbun knows that HH and KBH can do better.
    .
    1. Well, apparently BAM has a different idea now as they have issued a "warning" to HH & KBH, don't they??
    2. Replace the top player every yr? Definitely not, and no one is saying every yr. But review them after several yrs, definitely.
    3. Thank you for the replies to the 2 questions. And thank you once again for confirming and acknowledging that BAM and even Misbun are looking at their tournaments' results; i hope that's what you meant by "can do better". There's definitely no denying and no hiding from that fact.

    Here's another teh tarik for ya..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 02-05-2009 at 08:01 PM.

  4. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .

    In many countries their National No.1 (including your USA) get no good results. Is it better for countries to sack their National No.1 and replace them with their No.2, 3, etc... every year?

    .
    I know you're talking strictly badminton here, but that comment isn't true for many sports in the USA. Here, results = everything. Plenty of players and coaches are fired/traded/let go despite decent record....

    If the best that KBH and HH can do is 1st or 2nd round exit, if that's truly their ceilings now, what's the point of keeping them? Might as well dedicate the time and funds to train other MS.

  5. #90
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default ^^Some..^^

    ..would even say "It's about time or it's long overdue for BAM to do something with HH's & KBH's presence in the national team"..

  6. #91
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Eastern cultures are different from the Western ones

    Quote Originally Posted by badadum View Post

    I know you're talking strictly badminton here, but that comment isn't true for many sports in the USA. Here, results = everything. Plenty of players and coaches are fired/traded/let go despite decent record....

    If the best that KBH and HH can do is 1st or 2nd round exit, if that's truly their ceilings now, what's the point of keeping them? Might as well dedicate the time and funds to train other MS.

    .
    Yes, Eastern cultures are different from the Western ones.

    Perhaps, the Eastern Badminton Associations have more patience. Let's look at some 'well-known' players in Eastern countries who have not done well at tournaments, but not sacked.

    From INA: TH ... who at one time appeared to be going downhill
    From CHN: BCL ... who is known as Mr Runner-Up
    From MAS: HH ... who is known as Mr Yo-Yo
    etc...

    In the Western world, these players would have been replaced already.
    In the Eastern world, these players still get many second chances.


    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 02-05-2009 at 08:25 PM.

  7. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Yes, Eastern cultures are different from the Western ones.

    Perhaps, the Eastern Badminton Associations have more patience. Let's look at some 'well-known' players in Eastern countries who have not done well at tournaments, but not sacked.

    From INA: TH ... who at one time appeared to be going downhill
    From CHN: BCL ... known as Mr Runner-Up
    From MAS: HH ... known as Mr Yo-Yo
    etc...

    In the Western world, these players would have been replaced already.
    In the Eastern world, these players still get many second chances.


    .
    Heh, I think I'm quite familiar with the so-called Eastern culture.

    TH was still the 06 AG champ, and performance wise, still in the top 10 of MS the world...(at the very least he still able to win a title last couple of year)
    BCL....well, he's definitely in the top 10 of the world any given day.... he just have ridiculous record when it comes to final...

    Now compare that HH and KBH.....errr...where the heck is the comparison again???

  8. #93
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow TH, BCL, HH, KBH, etc... are still doing OK

    Quote Originally Posted by badadum View Post

    TH was still the 06 AG champ, and performance wise, still in the top 10 of MS the world...(at the very least he still able to win a title last couple of year)

    BCL....well, he's definitely in the top 10 of the world any given day.... he just have ridiculous record when it comes to final...

    Now compare that HH and KBH.....errr...where the heck is the comparison again???
    .
    Agree ... IMHO, TH, BCL, HH, KBH, etc... are still doing OK, even though not winning many titles. Therefore, let them continue to stay, and not to be sacked.
    .

  9. #94
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    Misbun plays hardball with duo

    isn't it a bit too late for ????.....

    http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/N...cle/index_html

  10. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by badadum View Post
    Hehe, we've one gent from the land down under and one star and stripes guy bantering on how Misbun should based his selection criteria... where's the MAS fans (that hopefully has more insight)???

    BTW chris, I doubt that Ayoob or LTS is better than HH and deserve the MAS #2 MS slots (if we're going by ranking alone).
    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Post#59, last paragraph says

    Not that simple ... Because if HH and KBH were to be selected to compete most of the time, then the other MAS promising younger players would find that they have less chance (talking about limited BAM budget) to show their potential ability.

    Misbun needs to take risk, and to allow younger players to come in.
    .
    and ctjcad,
    1) Badadum, Sairol & LTS are with KLRC, not BAM, hence no warnings to them, . LTS does manage to win 1 or 2 GP titles a year.

    2) THis year, it has already been stated by the National Sports Council that budget is reduced for tourneys. A player/pair only get to go 8 to max 10 tourneys a year, not 12 like it used to. Therefore, with less budget, the seniors like Hafiz, KBH will be next to go, allowing more spots for youngsters to come up.
    Hafiz should be same age with LCW = 26. KBH = 25. They have had many years to prove themselves.

    3) Although the youngsters have improved, when they play each other in local tourneys/international tourneys, they have lost to Hafiz or KBH. Only recently at the National GP, they (meaning TCS, CWF, Arif, Daren) have managed to beat KBH, Hafiz.

  11. #96
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Isn't it a bit too late for HH and KBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by limsy View Post

    Misbun plays hardball with duo

    isn't it a bit too late for ????.....

    http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/N...cle/index_html

    .
    Don't think it's too late for HH and KBH. They are about the same age as LCW.

    And also look at PG, currently Denmark's best.
    .

  12. #97
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow If the youngsters can beat HH and KBH consistently, then Misbun won't need to ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post

    and ctjcad,
    1) Badadum, Sairol & LTS are with KLRC, not BAM, hence no warnings to them, . LTS does manage to win 1 or 2 GP titles a year.

    .
    And Sairul & LTS managed to win some titles (from smaller tournaments) without BAM. So, even if they were with BAM, we won't think that they would get a warning like what HH and KBH had received.
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post

    2) THis year, it has already been stated by the National Sports Council that budget is reduced for tourneys. A player/pair only get to go 8 to max 10 tourneys a year, not 12 like it used to. Therefore, with less budget, the seniors like Hafiz, KBH will be next to go, allowing more spots for youngsters to come up.
    Hafiz should be same age with LCW = 26. KBH = 25. They have had many years to prove themselves.

    Agree ... It depends on BAM's budget too, which is another factor that Misbun has got to think about.
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post


    3) Although the youngsters have improved, when they play each other in local tourneys/international tourneys, they have lost to Hafiz or KBH. Only recently at the National GP, they (meaning TCS, CWF, Arif, Daren) have managed to beat KBH, Hafiz.

    This is what Misbun is waiting for. If the youngsters can beat HH and KBH consistently, then Misbun won't need to ponder anymore. The selection of MAS teammates to participate at international tournaments would be made so much simpler.
    .

  13. #98
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Yup..

    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    ...
    2) THis year, it has already been stated by the National Sports Council that budget is reduced for tourneys. A player/pair only get to go 8 to max 10 tourneys a year, not 12 like it used to. Therefore, with less budget, the seniors like Hafiz, KBH will be next to go, allowing more spots for youngsters to come up.
    Hafiz should be same age with LCW = 26. KBH = 25. They have had many years to prove themselves.
    ...
    (the 3rd M'sian BCer has spoken)..
    Your last sentence, above, sums it up pretty well..
    And when one really thinks about it, isn't that the whole point of BAM's current "warning" to both HH & KBH??..

  14. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    Here's another look at the quandary Misbun is in:

    At the 2008 Singapore Open:
    - Tan Chun Seang beat China's Gong Weijie and Korea's Hong Ji Hoon... and then fought a noteworthy 3-game battle against Peter Gade. Yes, TCS lost... but quite honourably 10-21 21-17 19-21
    - Kuan Beng Hong scalped team-mate Roslin Hashim and Thailand's Boonsak Ponsana before falling to an inspired Andrew Smith of England

    At last month's Malaysia Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong took a game off Korea's Park Sung-Hwan. Around the same time, Hafiz Hashim embarrassed himself against Indonesia's Simon Santoso. First game - just 5 points for the former All England champion (Um, HH doubled his take in the second game!)

    A while later, at the Korea Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong managed 12 and 16 against Simon Santoso... almost twice what the senior Malaysian managed.

    Additionally: At the Macau Open 2008, Kuan Beng Hong beat grandmaster Wong Choong Hann (and also Vietnam's Nguyen Tien Minh). That isn't something Hafiz Hashim could hope to do against even a retired Choong Hann.

    In essence, I'd suggest the active Kuan Beng Hong retain his place on the team while the passive Hafiz Hashim make way for someone with a more determined streak... perhaps Tan Chun Seang
    Totally agree with your excellent observations.
    HH should have been canned 2 years ago simply because he has shown that he can lose to anyone and has no competitive spirit.He would be more useful as a sparring partner.He would enjoy that more as the fitness requirement is less and he can maximise on his trickshots which would be ideal training for mental alertness.
    KBH, however, has been causing upsets.This indicates something positive has got into his system and he should be given maximum opportunities to improve his ranking.He will still splutter but will make slow and steady progress and be a worthy MAS MS no 2.But he has to work harder on his physical conditioning because his match confidence follows from that.
    I wonder how physical fitness is fixed for BAM players.Is it the job of the badminton coach or physical fitness coach?

  15. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    HH should have been canned 2 years ago simply because he has shown that he can lose to anyone and has no competitive spirit.He would be more useful as a sparring partner.He would enjoy that more as the fitness requirement is less and he can maximise on his trickshots which would be ideal training for mental alertness.
    But, you guys must also be known that Malaysia is having problem to replace Hafiz with other new players 2 years back.
    But now, BAM now got TCS and the gang to be a good back-up team.

  16. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by koo_fan View Post
    But, you guys must also be known that Malaysia is having problem to replace Hafiz with other new players 2 years back.
    But now, BAM now got TCS and the gang to be a good back-up team.
    Well, if BAM had unlocked TCS and gang from Rashid's kindergarten and given them HH's chances on a rotating basis 2 years ago, then their rankings would have been enough for them to qualify to play in AE2009.Actually HH burned up so many MJ chances to progress in their rankings he should consider giving sparring services for free.

  17. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Well, if BAM had unlocked TCS and gang from Rashid's kindergarten and given them HH's chances on a rotating basis 2 years ago, then their rankings would have been enough for them to qualify to play in AE2009.Actually HH burned up so many MJ chances to progress in their rankings he should consider giving sparring services for free.
    bam didnt think so farrrrrrrrrrr....at 2007...
    now...they think further...tats better...but not good enough...

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