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02-25-2009, 12:28 AM #1
Does muscle development get in the way of badminton?
Recently I've been on a weight training program for american football, and I was wondering if any of the muscle that develops gets in the way of badminton. I know that for baseball you're not supposed to bench press because it decreases your hitting power so I was wondering if badminton has a similar situation.
02-26-2009, 09:08 PM #2
lol thats ridiculous...reduces your hitting power :S
so your saying the weaker your muscles the stronger your hit? WRONG.
doing weights is fine and putting on size is fine. as you get bigger and bigger you will put on more weight and in the long run your agility and speed will be reduced. so you dont wannt to get too big.
but yes you can get decent size and muscle structure as well as strength and it will be no issue to your game. Just dont go for bodybuilding size.
02-27-2009, 12:52 AM #3
i wish i could develop muscle
02-27-2009, 09:22 PM #4
Hahaha, thanks xD
I think what they mean by decreasing hitting power becuase of building muscle is msucles developed by the bench get in the way or slow down other muscles or something like that
but thanks haha, good to know
02-27-2009, 11:18 PM #5
its really quite simple. What they are talking about is if you build muscle you can lose power in your swing because increased mass and muscle limits your range of motion. So if you are exercising for increased power in badminton then its best to go for lean muscle where you can still be flexible, Lee Chong Wei style.
On a side note pro body builders, you know the really really huge Arnold guys, they barely have the reach to wipe their own ass. the range of motion makes them horrible badminton players, not to mention they're not going to be the most agile on court because of their size.
02-28-2009, 02:35 AM #6
To know how your programme will affect your badminton depends on what kind of football programme you have. Like all things, some are pretty good, some are pretty terrible. Football seems to be pretty big down in the States, which means that there are lots of different approaches that are in use.
Some general thoughts:
- there's usually a fair bit of upper body strength work, which has the tendency of teaching your upper body muscles to sustain a contraction while exercising. In contrast, badminton is about teaching your muscles to synchronise so they fire in a single explosive burst. Whether this will have much of an effect on your performance depends on the individual.
- sometimes people who like to do a lot of bench press will tend to "push" rather than "swing"
- actually a lot of strength coaches don't do straight bar presses with throwers, because those athletes put a lot of stress on their shoulders already. I would put badminton players with that group because of the overhead strokes.
02-28-2009, 02:35 PM #7
The consequence of (most types of) training is gaining more muscle tissue. If you want to know if your football training is interfering badminton you have to know what kind of program you're using for training your strength. Let's state first that very big (extreme bodybuild-like) muscles could limit your active (and frequently also the passive) range of motion. Furthermore there are basicly 4 types of strength:
Let's say my maximum musclecharge for a benchpress is 100kg:
1) Maximal strength - able to perform 1 or 2 same movements before total fatigue (it takes a long time to recover afer this movement) - example: 1 or 2 benchpress(es) with the maximum weight you're able to benchpress for one time, let's say I could do a benchpress 100kg once, but not twice.
2) Fast strength - able to perform ±10 same movements before fatigued - example: I perform 3 series of 10 benchpresses with 75 kg before I'm fatigued.
3) Fast strength/Endurance - able to perform ±15 same movements before fatigued - example: I perform 3 series of 15 benchpresses with 55kg.
4) Speed/Endurance - able to perform <50 same movements before fatigued - example: I perform 3 series of 50 benchpresses with 10kg.
In my opionion badmintonplayers should train for numbers 3 and 4. So if you think your footballtraining is categorizable under the numbers 3 or 4, I think the training will work well together with badminton. But....
Muscles are best trained in their functional movements and joint angles. Training in another angle then used in spots, example: training your hamstrings in a prone position [hips are at 0 degree flexion/extension in this position] and using your hamstrings for e.g. speedskating [hips in (maybe) 45/50 degrees flexion]. These exercises would not be functional for speedskaters.
I couldn't tell you if your training is interfering badminton, because i don't know your football exercises. And i'm not into American Football . So, it's possible that your football training is not functional for badminton, even though the exercises are categorizable under the numbers 3 or 4 I mentioned above. If they're not categorizable under these numbers, or if it's not functional for badminton, doesn't mean it doesn't work at all for badminton. It always helps, but it's not an optimal training.
I would like to give you my source, but it's a dutch textbook... So i dont think it's relevant. I hope it helped, tieenbietjes.
Last edited by tieenbietjes; 02-28-2009 at 02:38 PM.
02-28-2009, 05:03 PM #8
Well my program is split into three stages and I'm on my first stage at the moment. What I'm doing right now, I beleive would fit into maybe number 2 - its do three sets of 8-12 repitions each at about 120 lbs (55 kgs?) for the bench press. But the tempo is 3 count - 1 puase - 2 quick (so three counts going down, 1 count at rest at bottom, 2 counts fairly quick going up)
The second stage I think would be more category 1.5 -ish. It isis 3 sets, 6-8 repititions. The count being 2 quick - 1 explode (go down 2 quick, then push up in one count very fast)
(Other things are also included in the program, but I'm just using the bench press as an example)
So i take it what you're saying is endurance training (like my stage one) woudn't be very suitable for badminton. But what I don't udnerstand is how the strength portion of it would also be unsuitable becuase I would be going up very quickly with the weight, which would train explosivity - the same theory used in badminton, no?
02-28-2009, 07:10 PM #9
Alright, you seem to train relatively explosive. But the thing is, it's only 12 repititions. So your explosiveness would only last shortly. This kind of training is like number 2 (fast strenght). It also depends on the weight you're using. When training for maximal strenght you need a weight that is so heavy, you only can do the excercise once, maybe twice.
Example: I only can benchpress 100KG once, so my Fmax is 100KG (=100%), when I keep on training, my Fmax will rise. So it's variable.
1) Maximal strength, Fmax = 100% - only 1 or 2 repititions.
2) Fast strength, Fmax = 75%-90% - 8-12 repititions.
3) Fast strength/Endurance, Fmax = 50%-75% - 10-15 repititions
4) Speed/Endurance, Fmax = <50% - 10-50 repititions
So if i want to train for speed/endurance, I need a weight wich is 50% or less from my Fmax (wich is in this case Fmax=100KG, so I need <50KG). The idea that i get by your discription is that it's a training for number 2. I bet you need a lot of strenght in a short period of time.
In my opionion badminton players should train to maintain their explosivity for a longer period period of time, wich is fast strength/endurance and/or speed/endurance. I think your football training does not interfere badminton, but it isn't ideal specific for badminton. It also depends on what kind of level you're playing, both football and badminton.
In the previous post I also forgot something to tell about weight. When you train Fast strength your muscles will, allmost certainly, grow. When your muscles grow, your weight will rise (muscles are heavier then fat). So more weight due muscles, is more weight to carry around on the court. The most top-players I've seen have a muscular and athlethic build. They don't have bodybuild-like muscles, but their muscles do seem very prominent when contracting (and even in rest), wich keeps them relatively light on the court. In short: big muscles give alot of strength, but are heavy and mostly early fatigued. Keep in mind that there are alyway exceptions .
I'm sorry I keep explaining in kilograms, but I don't know the metric system of lbs
I hope it helped, tieenbietjes.
Last edited by tieenbietjes; 02-28-2009 at 07:12 PM. Reason: edited grammar ;D
02-28-2009, 07:39 PM #10
Hmm. It's good to hear that it won't be interfering with my badminton... So my next question is would I be able to the category four lifts as well as my program? Just on the side?
02-28-2009, 08:13 PM #11
It can be done. But you have to understand that globally muslces are build from 2 types of muscle fibers: red fibers and white.
The red fibers are called type-I or "slow-twitch fibers", the white fibers are called type-II or "fast twitch". The type-I fibers are not easily fatigued but are very slow (muscles that maintain our posture contain a lot of red fibers). The type-II can be devided into 2 categories: type-IIa and type-IIx. Type-IIx is for the most explosive movements and is very fast fatigued, a type-IIa is a fiber in between type-I and type-IIx, it is not fast fatigued and it is used for explosive movements, but for fast movements.
Generally most of our muscles contain all of these fibers in diffrent proportions.
When you train for Fast strength, your muscles will adapt to the excercises concerning the composition of fibers within the muscle. It will produce more type-IIx fibers and a bit some type-IIa fibers in your muscles, with lesser red (type-I) fibers then before training.
Now, you always can do speed/endurance excercises on the side! But you must realise that the muscles adapt to the function they have to do. So if you do more speed/endurance excercises, your muscles will have more type-IIa fibers with type-IIx and some red fibers. If you do more Fast strength then you will have more type-IIx (early fatigued) with a few type-IIa (intermediate fatigued).
In contraction the red fibers will be activated first, when there is more power or speed required the body will activate the white fibers. I could imagine that you need more type-IIx for football, since you need to use very much power in a short period of time. For badminton i think a combination of type-IIa > type-IIx is good. Although type-IIx is needed for explosive shots, so you do need to develop a lot of this fiber in your upper- and specially in your lower arm. But you need to keep on moving fast over the court and not fatigueing in your legs (= type-IIa).
Some people have genetic adventages for developing white fibers, like a lot of 100m and 500m topsprinters. White fibers are trainable, even if you don't have that genetic adventage
For now, i have to sleep (it's 2AM )
I hope it helped, tieenbietjes.
02-28-2009, 08:38 PM #12
tieenbietjes, you're missing a key concept in strength training. Let's suppose that you weight 150 lbs, and you can squat your body + another 150 lbs. That means that your legs can put 300 lbs of force into the ground.
Now, a common objective for many athletes is to able to jump higher or perhaps have more strength endurance. Now, to achieve these goals you might practise jumping (50% load at max power) or repetitive bodyweight squats (50% for max reps) according to your table. However, a good strength coach will take one look at you and get you working on your max strength. Why?
Let's say that you raise your maximum squat strength to 250 lbs plus your bodyweight for a total of 400 lbs of force. Now, if you were to jump or do repetitive squats, your bodyweight now represents 150/400 = 37.5% of your maximum strength. Because of that lower percentage of load, both your jump height and strength endurance will improve, and likely by a lot more than if you trained those specialized traits more specifically. Maximum strength provides a foundation that makes your specific training much more effective.
03-01-2009, 05:16 PM #13
The definition of Fmax: "The biggest force a muscle(group) can produce at one contraction, 1RM (one repitition maximum). 1RM is usually the force or weight when you're able to move only once (2nd time is too heavy)."
- Freely translated from the book (dutch): Inspanningsfysiologie oefentherapie en training, by J.J. de Morree, M.W.A. Jongert & G. van der Poel.
So in some excercices your bodyweight would indeed matter, I think you're right about that. But in others (e.g. benchpress/legpress/biceps curl) your own weight is less relevant.
Each diffrent strengths have diffrent restperiods between the series. Like: maximal strength: Fmax = 100%, 1 or 2 repititions, 4-6 series, 2-4 minutes rest in between the series. Now speed/endurance: Fmax <50%, 10-50 repititions, 3-5 series, <45 seconds rest in between series.
Now if you would train at Fmax = 100%, your body will produce type-IIx. These are very fast fatigued but extremely powerfull. In my opinion, the production of these fibers could help in badminton, but the thing is: you don't want your muscles to be tired! And if the excercise is unfunctional for badminton, the fibers will help with the contraction, but it's far from effective for badminton movements. So you will have some benefit of it.
I've never seen any maximal strength excercises in badminton. Or maybe it's just me ;D. In badminton we don't do 1 or 2 movements and then stop. Badminton is an explosive and fast sport with some long rally's. Muscles who've adapted to maximal strength excercises can deliver the maximal force only once or twice (and after 2-4minutes rest again), wich is not functional for a long rally. When you train for a longer period, any type of strength, your Fmax will increase.
About the highjump: It's really to the trainer. What i would do is more repititions and lesser weight, because during a match you're jumping more then (let's say) 15 times. So when you train maximal strength functionally for a high jump, the body will have the type-IIx produced. They're fast-twitch fibers that are fast-fatigued.
Now for more repititions with lesser weight, the body should produce type-IIa. They're the fast-twich fibers that are intermediate-fatigued, but not as powerfull as IIx. I think a mixture of IIa>IIx is good, but that's just my opinion.
It's up to the trainer And this is just theoretically... But i can assure you it will work!
03-02-2009, 05:53 PM #14
This is just one principle. There are alot more types of strengthtraining, e.g. plyometric training. So this should not be read with the idea that this principle is the only way to train!
03-02-2009, 07:35 PM #15
you 2 idiots are both arguing the same points over and over restating each of the points both of you agree upon everytime lol.
03-02-2009, 07:53 PM #16
Actually, all exercise causes a shift from type IIb into IIa fibres. Generally the idea is that as you work a muscle, it adapts to the volume of training by increasing its endurance, at the expense of max power/force. The only way to retype fibres the other way is to rest and not exercise. This is why coach potatoes have a much higher fast twitch fibre percentage than most athletes.
Now, let's take a look at the 1rm (1 rep max). Usually, this refers the the amount of weight that you can lower then raise for 1 rep. Do note that this is not the highest force possible, you can actually lower more weight or drop yourself down quickly to temporarily generate forces above your 1-rep max. If you are unable to generate much force above your 1 rm in these conditions, then this is when you need to do plyometric training.
Now, a true 1 rep max can take anywhere from 3-5 seconds to execute. However, in badminton movements actually only last .1 to .2 seconds. So really, even this training is in a longer endurance profile than actual badminton movements, so alactic endurance shouldn't really be an issue. Also, keep in mind that in a 1 rep max, you're putting maximum intensity into the movement while on the court, you're likely to be at a more relaxed intensity - this will improve also improve power endurance significantly.
03-02-2009, 07:55 PM #17
wow stumbling thank you for recapping that same point for the 18,000th time.
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