User Tag List

Page 10 of 29 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ... LastLast
Results 154 to 170 of 481
  1. #154
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Basement Boiler Room
    Posts
    22,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    There really is no basis on who is ' the best ' at the respective eras and compared across generations. There are just too many variances between them to make a sound comparison.

    People might say LD is faster, stronger etc compared to legends like Hartono and TXH, LSK etc. But equipment has changed so dramatically between these periods, court conditions, nutrition all make drastic differences to what kind of court play is possible. Ever tried doing a 'chop smash' using a 250g wooden racket and 16lb string tensions ? Or play on lacquered wood floors with canvas shoes that have all but 10mm worth of rubber sole and support?

    What if top modern players like LD, LCW and say TH were transported back in time, to the time of Hartono, Wong Peng Soon, TXH ? And played against these players using equipment and court conditions of that time ? Wooden rackets, cotton apparel, canvas shoes, wooden lacqured floors and all. Would they be able to play at their current levels, much less styles which make them such excellent players ? I seriously do not believe so. They will be forced to adapt the style which best suits the equipment available of that era. And would they still be able to beat those legendary greats ? I would say there really is no certain answer to it, as it would be a hard fight.
    There might not be 1 basis to measure who is the best but one could draw conclusion if several measures are considered. Today’s players are indeed faster and stronger than before because of more conditioning and training. I can say LD had put him more training time than previous greats. In general to conclude that today pros are faster and stronger than previous generations of pros is not a stretch or an exaggeration. Even if LD wore the old dragonfly shoes, he’ll still be faster and dive better than any pros decades ago. Previous pros play more for personal interest than today’s pros. There are more stakes and rewards to being a pro today. More reasons to train harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    That being said, the many people in this thread say LD 'is the best' simple because he's the best player they have witnessed to date and of the current era. But have they witnessed the various other legends at their prime ?

    I had the rarefield opportunity to witness Zhao Jianhua on form and extremely motivated at the Singapore Open back in '92. Watched the Quarters, Semi's and Finals all courtside. It was a superlative performance which I have not witnessed in the years since. Based on that tournament alone, I would say LD would not have beaten ZJH at near his prime. He is one of the rare few players in history which his peers openly admit that his best, he was simply untouchable ( I quote Ardy Wiranata on this).
    What if all of TXH’s, LYB’s, etc experience and knowledge were put into mo lding LD? Wouldn’t that enough to say LD is a super protégé of previous badminton greats? I know LD is not like the individual TXH or ZJH, but isn’t having the best features of them makes an even more superior player?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    The other being TXH. I have not heard such superlative praise for LD from his peers.
    Then u should open your ears more. Have u heard of ‘Super Dan’? Have u heard Gillian Clark , who’s a commentator for so many tournaments, saying ‘LD oozes confidence and dominance in the court?’ I guess u haven’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    So would I consider ZJH the best player in history then ? No, because there will always be someone who will come along to dominate his era of competition.
    U r correct in this regard, his name is lin dan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post

    There really is no direct comparison, but each 'legend' was the best of his era, move beyond that, there is no basis for comparison, too many variables change between eras.
    Back then, rudy hartono, L. Swie King, Frost, Yang yang, ZJH, etc were the tops but they only have a few foes. Today, top players have to contest against many many formidable foes.
    LD had fought TH, LCW, peter gade, SDK, chen hong, chen jin, BCL, LHI, Park SH, and being a level ahead of them is what make LD great.

  2. #155
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Basement Boiler Room
    Posts
    22,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TaRaKaN View Post
    Let's just get a poll set up =) That should answer EVERYTHING
    no it won't. U have to factor in the nationalities distribution of BF members.
    The poll results will be predictable as tomorrow's sun rise.

    Badmintoncentral.com users come from these countries:
    21.7% United States
    15.7% India
    12.7% Malaysia
    8.4% Indonesia
    7.3% Singapore
    7.1% Japan
    4.6% United Kingdom
    3.7% Canada
    2.7% Pakistan
    2.5% Thailand
    1.8% Australia
    1.3% Philippines
    1.2% China
    1.1% New Zealand
    1.0% Germany
    1.0% Sri Lanka
    0.8% Vietnam
    0.7% Hong Kong
    0.6% Netherlands
    0.5% Belgium
    3.7% OTHER
    Last edited by cooler; 08-20-2009 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #156
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    u.s.a.
    Posts
    19,157
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default The debate will continue..

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    ...Back then, rudy hartono, L. Swie King, Frost, Yang yang, ZJH, etc were the tops but they only have a few foes. Today, top players have to contest against many many formidable foes.
    LD had fought TH, LCW, peter gade, SDK, chen hong, chen jin, BCL, LHI, Park SH, and being a level ahead of them is what make LD great
    .
    ..personally, on the last part, i only count LCW, TH, PG and CH on equal par with LinDan. The others are in a level below..Esp. now, with the MS field, arguably, watered-down with only LCW as the real challenger to LD, it makes it even more debatable if LinDan is the "best MS baddy player in human history". Another thing to consider is the use of the NSS in the 2nd half of this decade. Would LD have the same succes if the scoring system had stayed the same from 2006 til now? Remember also, LD didn't start his string of success until the implementation of the NSS.
    Players in the olden days, IMO, had more challengers or quality opponents and they had to play using the OSS.
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    no it won't. U have to factor in the nationalities distribution of BF members.
    The poll results will be predictable as tomorrow's sun rise.

    Badmintoncentral.com users come from these countries:
    21.7% United States
    15.7% India
    12.7% Malaysia
    8.4% Indonesia
    7.3% Singapore
    7.1% Japan
    4.6% United Kingdom
    3.7% Canada
    2.7% Pakistan
    2.5% Thailand
    1.8% Australia
    1.3% Philippines
    1.2% China
    1.1% New Zealand
    1.0% Germany
    1.0% Sri Lanka
    0.8% Vietnam
    0.7% Hong Kong
    0.6% Netherlands
    0.5% Belgium
    3.7% OTHER
    ..that stat has changed a few times. For one, India wasn't even in the top 3, say a yr ago but all of a sudden it's now in the top 3?!?!..Yeah, we can thank the 2009 WC, can't we??..

  4. #157
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    2,106
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    the tv commentators said it best.... WORLD best MS player of the modern era. indisputable
    Last edited by jug8man; 08-20-2009 at 07:57 PM.

  5. #158
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    2,106
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    LCW however is best MS player of the EVER (NOT JUST modern era) of MALAYSIA. So Malaysians.... deal with it

  6. #159
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    2,106
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post




    Back then, rudy hartono, L. Swie King, Frost, Yang yang, ZJH, etc were the tops but they only have a few foes. Today, top players have to contest against many many formidable foes.
    LD had fought TH, LCW, peter gade, SDK, chen hong, chen jin, BCL, LHI, Park SH, and being a level ahead of them is what make LD great.
    I agree. These are truly top players. Both in level and worldwide reputation. Of course still, in the end... it would seem that none are truly in the same league with LD.

    I would like to include the following players... Not the best all the time, but when they did make their mark,... Lin Dan was still there to snuff them out:-

    -Kenneth Johansen (former world no. 1 or 2 at some point i believe)
    -Boonsak Ponsana (had so much giant killer potential)
    -Wong Choon Hann (at his prime, wrested the China Open title,..... only for China to avenge greatly with the coming of Lin Dan)
    -Hafiz Hashim (ooops)

  7. #160
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    597
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    There might not be 1 basis to measure who is the best but one could draw conclusion if several measures are considered. Today’s players are indeed faster and stronger than before because of more conditioning and training. I can say LD had put him more training time than previous greats. In general to conclude that today pros are faster and stronger than previous generations of pros is not a stretch or an exaggeration. Even if LD wore the old dragonfly shoes, he’ll still be faster and dive better than any pros decades ago. Previous pros play more for personal interest than today’s pros. There are more stakes and rewards to being a pro today. More reasons to train harder.


    What if all of TXH’s, LYB’s, etc experience and knowledge were put into mo lding LD? Wouldn’t that enough to say LD is a super protégé of previous badminton greats? I know LD is not like the individual TXH or ZJH, but isn’t having the best features of them makes an even more superior player?
    Like I said, there is no direct comparison. You chose and picked those points which are valid for your arguments, then its not valid an argument. Rackets and strings make equally a big difference, much less to note the courts, the attire, the shuttles available then. You honestly believe LD can play the way he plays given those equipment of "back then" ? You're seriously deluded in that idea or you're just trying to make a point for your argument without a sound basis.

    Try taking a wooden racket that weighs in at about 200grams, wooden shaft, natural gut strings at 12-16lbs. Aeroplane shuttles of that era that's like the super cheap grade shuttles in the stores, today and try doing a 100% jump smash as you would do with a ArcSaber 10 or Mp99. Then let me know how well you fare. .... Or yah, don't forget the Double Happiness canvas shoes, and 'rugby grade' cotton top and bermuda shorts to go with the flow.

    Then try playing the 'old' 15 points system. And let us know truthfully how it feels compared to the equipment you're using now.

    Truth of the matter is that in badminton as in any sports, "greatness" is something which is defined by the social climate of the times. There is no clear benchmark. And also as in any sports, usually hard work will get you the most consistent results. But having worked with some of the most talented sports people I've seen in various sports, namely badminton and cycling as well as cross-country running, I can say 'talent' means as much as pure hard work at the very highest levels. Had a personal friend who at junior under-14 beat a certain (later to be World no. 1 ) Wong Choon Hann at a regional junior tournament. And he certainly had 'talent', as personified in the way he plays and approaches the game. Unfortunately circumstances prevailed and he gave up badminton for his studies.

    LD is a talent, who with hard work has achieved a whole lot more than all his other peers of the current generation. However, its not always been clear whether he's been considered a 'naturally talented' player. Such players only come around once a decade or so. And in my eyes, he's not in that category. I would say he's a closer clone to Yang Yang. Athletic, determined and hardworking. But he certainly doesn't play the game as a 'natural' player would, certainly not 'the greatest'.

    That being said, all the experience of the past masters amount to nothing if the player has not the ability to absorb it. Having these 'masters' to train him doesn't automatically make him a great player. Does having Liszt and Chopin being your piano teachers make you the best piano player too ? Not by a long shot...

    To me, a great player is one who can lift the game to such scintillating heights, even the opponent much less the audience have nothing but grant utter respect and submit to the 'greatness'. One who brings a whole new dimension to the otherwise 'mundane'.

    There will always be 'great ' and 'legends' once in a generation. But there will never be a 'greatest ever'.

  8. #161
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    2,106
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post

    LD is a talent, who with hard work has achieved a whole lot more than all his other peers of the current generation. However, its not always been clear whether he's been considered a 'naturally talented' player. Such players only come around once a decade or so. And in my eyes, he's not in that category. I would say he's a closer clone to Yang Yang. Athletic, determined and hardworking. But he certainly doesn't play the game as a 'natural' player would, certainly not 'the greatest'.


    There will always be 'great ' and 'legends' once in a generation. But there will never be a 'greatest ever'.
    It's hard to compare different generations. That's why I now choose to say 'Greatest of the modern era' to clasify Lin Dan.

    Regarding your comparison of Lin Dan to Yang Yang.... There are a few major differences.

    1) Lin Dan was never truly 'schooled' by anybody. Even if he did lose to someone, he would always return the favour with LOADS of interest. His 'track-record-&-performance' againts Taufik & LCW is the main proof of this.
    Yang Yang on the other hand will always have ZJH whom seem 'superior' in every way except sadly the story we all know.

    2) You my say that both Yang Yang & Lin Dan are athlethic,... but the truth is that Lin Dans Athlethicism is at such a different level & pace. Play both players matches together at the same time and Yang Yang desn't look very ahlethic anymore. Fit maybe. Perhaps you should compare Yang Yang to Lee Chong Wei?
    Last edited by jug8man; 08-20-2009 at 10:03 PM.

  9. #162
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    597
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jug8man View Post
    It's hard to compare different generations. That's why I now choose to say 'Greatest of the modern era' to clasify Lin Dan.

    Regarding your comparison of Lin Dan to Yang Yang.... There are a few major differences.

    1) Lin Dan was never truly 'schooled' by anybody. Even if he did lose to someone, he would always return the favour with LOADS of interest. His 'track-record-&-performance' againts Taufik & LCW is the main proof of this.
    Yang Yang on the other hand will always have ZJH whom seem 'superior' in every way except sadly the story we all know.

    2) You my say that both Yang Yang & Lin Dan are athlethic,... but the truth is that Lin Dans Athlethicism is at such a different level & pace. Play both players matches together at the same time and Yang Yang desn't look very ahlethic anymore. Fit maybe. Perhaps you should compare Yang Yang to Lee Chong Wei?
    I would re-phrase it as " The best player amongst the current professionals now".

    Nope, LCW is not in the same category as YY, at least not in my books. YY produced performances and results with far greater consistency. LD's approach to the game is indeed very close to YY's in terms of corrections and hard work. And also the results he produces.

  10. #163
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,611
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    1.3% Philippines
    1.2% China
    1.1% New Zealand
    1.0% Germany
    1.0% Sri Lanka
    0.8% Vietnam
    0.7% Hong Kong
    0.6% Netherlands
    0.5% Belgium
    Kinda off-topic, but guess what? Cooler has contributed 1.6% of the total posts in BC. Compare to the list above...

  11. #164
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Petaling Jaya
    Posts
    677
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    There might not be 1 basis to measure who is the best but one could draw conclusion if several measures are considered. Today’s players are indeed faster and stronger than before because of more conditioning and training. I can say LD had put him more training time than previous greats. In general to conclude that today pros are faster and stronger than previous generations of pros is not a stretch or an exaggeration. Even if LD wore the old dragonfly shoes, he’ll still be faster and dive better than any pros decades ago. Previous pros play more for personal interest than today’s pros. There are more stakes and rewards to being a pro today. More reasons to train harder.


    What if all of TXH’s, LYB’s, etc experience and knowledge were put into mo lding LD? Wouldn’t that enough to say LD is a super protégé of previous badminton greats? I know LD is not like the individual TXH or ZJH, but isn’t having the best features of them makes an even more superior player?



    Then u should open your ears more. Have u heard of ‘Super Dan’? Have u heard Gillian Clark , who’s a commentator for so many tournaments, saying ‘LD oozes confidence and dominance in the court?’ I guess u haven’t.

    U r correct in this regard, his name is lin dan.





    Back then, rudy hartono, L. Swie King, Frost, Yang yang, ZJH, etc were the tops but they only have a few foes. Today, top players have to contest against many many formidable foes.
    LD had fought TH, LCW, peter gade, SDK, chen hong, chen jin, BCL, LHI, Park SH, and being a level ahead of them is what make LD great.
    Quite a degree of bias, ignorance and lob-sided. He only see 1 side of a coin.

  12. #165
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Petaling Jaya
    Posts
    677
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    There might not be 1 basis to measure who is the best but one could draw conclusion if several measures are considered. Today’s players are indeed faster and stronger than before because of more conditioning and training. I can say LD had put him more training time than previous greats. In general to conclude that today pros are faster and stronger than previous generations of pros is not a stretch or an exaggeration. Even if LD wore the old dragonfly shoes, he’ll still be faster and dive better than any pros decades ago. Previous pros play more for personal interest than today’s pros. There are more stakes and rewards to being a pro today. More reasons to train harder.


    What if all of TXH’s, LYB’s, etc experience and knowledge were put into mo lding LD? Wouldn’t that enough to say LD is a super protégé of previous badminton greats? I know LD is not like the individual TXH or ZJH, but isn’t having the best features of them makes an even more superior player?



    Then u should open your ears more. Have u heard of ‘Super Dan’? Have u heard Gillian Clark , who’s a commentator for so many tournaments, saying ‘LD oozes confidence and dominance in the court?’ I guess u haven’t.

    U r correct in this regard, his name is lin dan.





    Back then, rudy hartono, L. Swie King, Frost, Yang yang, ZJH, etc were the tops but they only have a few foes. Today, top players have to contest against many many formidable foes.
    LD had fought TH, LCW, peter gade, SDK, chen hong, chen jin, BCL, LHI, Park SH, and being a level ahead of them is what make LD great.
    Quite a degree of exaggeration, bias, ignorance and lob-sided. His common practice.
    He only see 1 side of a coin.

  13. #166
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Petaling Jaya
    Posts
    677
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    Like I said, there is no direct comparison. You chose and picked those points which are valid for your arguments, then its not valid an argument. Rackets and strings make equally a big difference, much less to note the courts, the attire, the shuttles available then. You honestly believe LD can play the way he plays given those equipment of "back then" ? You're seriously deluded in that idea or you're just trying to make a point for your argument without a sound basis.

    Try taking a wooden racket that weighs in at about 200grams, wooden shaft, natural gut strings at 12-16lbs. Aeroplane shuttles of that era that's like the super cheap grade shuttles in the stores, today and try doing a 100% jump smash as you would do with a ArcSaber 10 or Mp99. Then let me know how well you fare. .... Or yah, don't forget the Double Happiness canvas shoes, and 'rugby grade' cotton top and bermuda shorts to go with the flow.

    Then try playing the 'old' 15 points system. And let us know truthfully how it feels compared to the equipment you're using now.

    Truth of the matter is that in badminton as in any sports, "greatness" is something which is defined by the social climate of the times. There is no clear benchmark. And also as in any sports, usually hard work will get you the most consistent results. But having worked with some of the most talented sports people I've seen in various sports, namely badminton and cycling as well as cross-country running, I can say 'talent' means as much as pure hard work at the very highest levels. Had a personal friend who at junior under-14 beat a certain (later to be World no. 1 ) Wong Choon Hann at a regional junior tournament. And he certainly had 'talent', as personified in the way he plays and approaches the game. Unfortunately circumstances prevailed and he gave up badminton for his studies.

    LD is a talent, who with hard work has achieved a whole lot more than all his other peers of the current generation. However, its not always been clear whether he's been considered a 'naturally talented' player. Such players only come around once a decade or so. And in my eyes, he's not in that category. I would say he's a closer clone to Yang Yang. Athletic, determined and hardworking. But he certainly doesn't play the game as a 'natural' player would, certainly not 'the greatest'.

    That being said, all the experience of the past masters amount to nothing if the player has not the ability to absorb it. Having these 'masters' to train him doesn't automatically make him a great player. Does having Liszt and Chopin being your piano teachers make you the best piano player too ? Not by a long shot...

    To me, a great player is one who can lift the game to such scintillating heights, even the opponent much less the audience have nothing but grant utter respect and submit to the 'greatness'. One who brings a whole new dimension to the otherwise 'mundane'.

    There will always be 'great ' and 'legends' once in a generation. But there will never be a 'greatest ever'.
    Agreed.
    Very well said and have plenty of neutral facts to back-up your statements.

  14. #167
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kuching, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Posts
    4,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    title of this thread is correct only if lin dan is unbeatable until now....

    i have read the entire 166 posts and i think the bcer here are exhausted...

    to claim x is better than y when there is a time difference of more than 10 years or even 5 years, is just impossible even though we can see the game has improved in terms of speed endurance, technique and power

  15. #168
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Basement Boiler Room
    Posts
    22,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    title of this thread is correct only if lin dan is unbeatable until now....

    i have read the entire 166 posts and i think the bcer here are exhausted...
    i see u r beginning to like LD

  16. #169
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kuching, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Posts
    4,745
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    i see u r beginning to like LD
    i always like him but his days are numbered...don't you agree?

  17. #170
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Basement Boiler Room
    Posts
    22,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    i always like him but his days are numbered...don't you agree?
    i can explain that, i say u can't count very high

Page 10 of 29 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    : 02-06-2010, 01:48 AM
  2. Shocking discovery:we are human bacteria hybrid
    By taneepak in forum Chit-Chat
    Replies: 4
    : 05-12-2008, 05:29 PM
  3. Human Tail?
    By ants in forum Chit-Chat
    Replies: 3
    : 09-07-2007, 04:41 AM
  4. Human factor in making the draw
    By 2cents in forum Japan Open / China Open 2006
    Replies: 18
    : 10-14-2006, 12:30 PM
  5. Who is the best Ws player in history?
    By seawell in forum Professional Players
    Replies: 24
    : 11-24-2005, 09:44 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •