Let's conclude it, Lin Dan is the best MS baddy player in human history.

**Wong8Egg** · 03-14-2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by ye333

First ZJH vs Frost is a much faster game; Second as I said LD and LCW should be too fast for 1985's ZJH to deal with.

But to say players like today's TH, PG or even Persson can beat ZJH, I just have to disagree.

To make things simple let's state the following facts.

1. Today's PG is at least half level down from his 1998-99 level.
2. In 1997, a 32 year old ZJH easily beat Sun Jun in a 7-pt game (so that the difference in stamina would not matter much).
3. Sun Jun and PG are around the same level.

Now, the conclusion of ZJH in his prime vs PG today should be obvious, isn't it?

Alright, here is Morton Frost vs ZJH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcMFmtN4aZ8

And LD vs LCW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLAmgGVTH2I

Any people, with or without badminton experience can tell today's badminton are playing at a much higher intensity.

**Wong8Egg** · 03-14-2009, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by ctjcad

..so, is this your final conclusion to the thread title??..

Pretty much.

**cooler** · 03-14-2009, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Krisna

Too bad Lin Dan needed Taufik to be famous...

indeed, LD had benefited many times from Taufik's lack of form... Too bad...

LD is not the greatest player of all time [Taufik is!

]...

LD missed TH alot. TH can't get pass the QF it seem.....

Plus TH isn't mouthing off about LD in the press much anymore, LD is getting less press exposure.... It's TH's fault

**mettayogi** · 03-14-2009, 01:52 PM

If LD is hit by a truck today and can no longer play badminton, will he remain the best baddy player in history? "Was" is not the same as "is"

In that case, even I can beat LD because he will default :-) Does that make me the best baddy player since I can "beat" the former best?

Just deploying "reductio ad absurdum" to expose the proposition is flawed.

**cooler** · 03-14-2009, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by mettayogi

If LD is hit by a truck today and can no longer play badminton, will he remain the best baddy player in history? "Was" is not the same as "is"

In that case, even I can beat LD because he will default :-) Does that make me the best baddy player since I can "beat" the former best?

Just deploying "reductio ad absurdum" to expose the proposition is flawed.

yup. that is why TH folded, walkout and avoided LD so many time. LD cant be the best when he can't play TH, right?

**mettayogi** · 03-14-2009, 02:05 PM

I'll ask the "dinner guest" question for badminton.

If you can choose any badminton player in history to play a competitive game with you, who would you choose? and why?

**mettayogi** · 03-14-2009, 02:18 PM

Let's say LD remains WR #1 and win gold in 2012. It can happen.

In 2016 LD won't be WR#1. How do you know LD 2016 can beat WR#1 in 2016? Obviously he can't, otherwise LD will still be WR#1. If someone insists LD will remain WR#1 in 2016, how about 2026? It will be absurd.

Comparing athletes from different era is futile. No time machine exists to let top player of old era to play current best.

Badminton and athletes keep changing and that makes badminton interesting. Personally I'll be disappointed if all top players play the same style in the future.

**mettayogi** · 03-14-2009, 02:25 PM

Yep.
Badminton requires an opponent to play to win. If X doesn't play LD, you can't claim LD is better than X with complete confidence. You can only make a judgment, and judgments are subject to disagreements.

In contrast, field & track or swimming records can be compared w/o opponents to show up. It's objectively verifiable data.

Originally Posted by cooler

yup. that is why TH folded, walkout and avoided LD so many time. LD cant be the best when he can't play TH, right?

**cooler** · 03-14-2009, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by mettayogi

Yep.
Badminton requires an opponent to play to win. If X doesn't play LD, you can't claim LD is better than X with complete confidence. You can only make a judgment, and judgments are subject to disagreements.

In contrast, field & track or swimming records can be compared w/o opponents to show up. It's objectively verifiable data.

then u cant claim TH is the best either

**cooler** · 03-14-2009, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by mettayogi

Let's say LD remains WR #1 and win gold in 2012. It can happen.

In 2016 LD won't be WR#1. How do you know LD 2016 can beat WR#1 in 2016? Obviously he can't, otherwise LD will still be WR#1. If someone insists LD will remain WR#1 in 2016, how about 2026? It will be absurd.

Comparing athletes from different era is futile. No time machine exists to let top player of old era to play current best.

Badminton and athletes keep changing and that makes badminton interesting. Personally I'll be disappointed if all top players play the same style in the future.

another TH fan, ....talking absurdity.

**wongpro** · 03-14-2009, 02:52 PM

As far as I've known, Lin Dan is the best.

**mettayogi** · 03-14-2009, 03:14 PM

Nope.
Claiming someone, LD or somebody else, will be at the top forever - that I don't accept. Do you?

Originally Posted by cooler

another TH fan, ....talking absurdity.

**mettayogi** · 03-14-2009, 03:34 PM

I didn't. Did I?

I'm simply pointing out no logically valid conclusion can be drawn from a flawed proposition. But then again not everyone is interested in logic.

Originally Posted by cooler

then u cant claim TH is the best either

**ye333** · 03-14-2009, 11:00 PM

Did you read my post? I have said many times that I have no objection to the claim that LD/LCW can beat ZJH, what I cannot agree with is your claim that players like today's PG, TH or even Joachim Persson can beat ZJH in his prime.

BTW, how do you deal with my ZJH vs SJ example?

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

Alright, here is Morton Frost vs ZJH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcMFmtN4aZ8

And LD vs LCW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLAmgGVTH2I

Any people, with or without badminton experience can tell today's badminton are playing at a much higher intensity.

***Cheung*** · 03-15-2009, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Krisna

Lin Dan might be the best player 2006-2009... Taufik was argueably better than him before that [2004-2005]... but he is surely not the most famous! The most famous is: ...PRAKASH PADUKONE! Because he is the father of Deepika Padukone!

Just google her if you don't trust me... She has 1 billion fans!

Amazing!

Why did she give up badminton ??

**pralinescream** · 03-15-2009, 02:00 AM

it is very easy to judge who is greatest player of all time. is just by based on no.of titles, dominance among peers. for that nobody is equal to Lin Dan. GREATEST MS PLAYER OF ALL TIME 1) LIN DAN 2) YANG YANG 3) ZHAO JIANHUA GREATEST CHINA MS PLAYER OF ALL TIME 1) LIN DAN 2) YANG YANG 3) ZHAO JIANHUA GREATEST INDON MS PLAYER OF ALL TIME 1) RUDY HARTONO 2) TAUFIK HIDAYAT 3) LIM SWIE KING GREATEST MALAYSIA MS PLAYER OF ALL TIME 1) LEE CHONG WEI 2) RASHID SIDEK 3) MISBUN SIDEK

**mettayogi** · 03-15-2009, 11:30 AM

LD just lost to LCW 21-16 21-16 in Swiss Open. As I said before, 'best' in sports is temporary.

Someone can insist the best still loses sometimes. Then what's the difference between 'best' and 'not best', if they lose? The so-called 'best' is time average, or sample a particular time scale. On a match by match basis, the 'best' can still lose on any particular day, and is not the best on that day.

Arguing a particular sampling period (e.g. 1 year) is superior to another (1 day) would be purely empirical.
Saying LCW is the best MS baddy player today would be less controversial, isn't it?