Let's conclude it, Lin Dan is the best MS baddy player in human history.

**krisss** · 03-10-2009, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

Probably not the alien with 8 hands and 5 legs, but yes for human.

For human.

LD is no human :O!

Pure muscle , badminton alien!

**Wong8Egg** · 03-10-2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Zero_Cool

I personally think he is the best player in 21-rally point system.
With 15 point system, he is one of the best but NOT necessarily THE BEST.
21-point systems suits his style of playing, 15-point system suits LCW style more.
End.

I can't recall LCW has won many titles back in the OSS days, but LD has already won AE back then.

**Qidong** · 03-10-2009, 07:17 PM

I kept thinking Zhao Jianhua was the best ever. But after watching him play in OG last year and the recent tournments, I start thinking he is even better than Zhao. LD plays like Yang Yang. They both don't have any weakness, but just LD is a little better in every aspect.

**koo_fan** · 03-10-2009, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Qidong

....LD is a little better in every aspect.

and perhaps u'll find a little better player than LD in future.It is continuous.

**viver** · 03-11-2009, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Qidong

I kept thinking Zhao Jianhua was the best ever. But after watching him play in OG last year and the recent tournments, I start thinking he is even better than Zhao. LD plays like Yang Yang. They both don't have any weakness, but just LD is a little better in every aspect.

Look at this way - Zhao Jianhua as from what I heard, trains 1 hr daily if he feels well. Coaches don't risk pushing him much due to health issues as we already know. Yet his accomplishments are quite good.

It's really hard to compare players. If I had to, I would chose Zhao Jianhua as a better player. Zhao won the Japan Open and All England at 18 yo, and in my opinion technically better than Lin Dan at that age. At 18, Zhao's court coverage skills is superior to the pre OG'08 Lin Dan and not weaker than the current Lin Dan, I think.

**cooler** · 03-11-2009, 03:11 AM

1 to 1 comparison is not so straight forward sometime. LD, IMO, as a composite whole right now, is better than when ZJH. I have alway rated ZJH higher than LD but when LD won the OG, he had reach and surpassed ZJH as a better complete player. At his peak, ZJH is near perfect but ZJH is also inconsistent, he can not win title continuously. In one match, I have seen ZJH lost to ardy wiranata with stupid careless unforced errors. LD can consistently win, barring internal agenda

Like TH, ZJH has natural gift so they excel at an earlier age. However, true winner must continue to evolve and improve.
LD didn't invented all his skills, he borrowed some from ZJH, sun jung, tang fu, and many before him, including from his many opponents. Every prior known weakness of LD have been corrected (or hidden skillfully) by LD: His robotic play, his no netting skills, his weak backhand, smash only type of a player image, all fixed. So the best is the one who is the best learner. Same thing as asking is great leader born or made? i say both but also depends. It depends how high of a standard each of them willing to pursue.

**Wong8Egg** · 03-11-2009, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by viver

Look at this way - Zhao Jianhua as from what I heard, trains 1 hr daily if he feels well. Coaches don't risk pushing him much due to health issues as we already know. Yet his accomplishments are quite good.

It's really hard to compare players. If I had to, I would chose Zhao Jianhua as a better player. Zhao won the Japan Open and All England at 18 yo, and in my opinion technically better than Lin Dan at that age. At 18, Zhao's court coverage skills is superior to the pre OG'08 Lin Dan and not weaker than the current Lin Dan, I think.

ZJH is gifted in skills and touches like TH, but LD is gifted with excellent anticipation and athletic body, but people always neglected that.

**ye333** · 03-11-2009, 12:15 PM

ZJH has very good anticipation and is also very athletic. Just watch any of his match. See how he intercepts of opponents' lifts/clears. His movement is similar to LD's: almost just one jump from the base position, body fully stretched, use only wrist power and yet was able to hit a reasonably powerful smash. ZJH in good form simply has everything.

That said, I don't think ZJH of 1990, if brought here by a time machine, can beat LD in OG final. Because LD's physical ability is super-human in OG final, exaggerating a bit, he ran faster than the shuttle in that match. No wonder LCW had no idea what to do.

On the other hand, I believe ZJH at his best can easily destroy any of the current top 10s except LD and LCW.

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

ZJH is gifted in skills and touches like TH, but LD is gifted with excellent anticipation and athletic body, but people always neglected that.

**Qidong** · 03-11-2009, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by ye333

...
On the other hand, I believe ZJH at his best can easily destroy any of the current top 10s except LD and LCW.

LCW?

Are you sure? He is good, but he is not at ZJH's level yet.

I grow up watching ZJH play a lot. ZJH can be compared to Brazil in soccer. LD is like Italy. If ZJH plays his perfect game and cut down unforced errors to a minimum, he can still beat LD. But too bad, if they play 10 games, ZJH can be at his best probably in 4 games. So LD will probably win 6/4. That's why I feel that LD is a better player.

**ye333** · 03-11-2009, 01:22 PM

Yes... LCW at his best could be too fast for the ZJH in 1990.

Originally Posted by Qidong

LCW?

Are you sure? He is good, but he is not at ZJH's level yet.

I grow up watching ZJH play a lot. ZJH can be compared to Brazil in soccer. LD is like Italy. If ZJH plays his perfect game and cut down unforced errors to a minimum, he can still beat LD. But too bad, if they play 10 games, ZJH can be at his best probably in 4 games. So LD will probably win 6/4. That's why I feel that LD is a better player.

**General Foo** · 03-11-2009, 03:42 PM

i conclude it Lin Dan is undoubtedly the best player in human history. He is the most dominant sportsman in the world.

**yourbestfriend** · 03-11-2009, 06:39 PM

are you guys for real?! It shouldn't even be an argument.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.

No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha

It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.

**badders2006** · 03-11-2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

are you guys for real?! It shouldn't even be an argument.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.

No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha

It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.

great post - very direct and speaks the "unspeakable" truth.

we still live in age whereby the greats of yesteryear are irrationally placed on an untouchable pedestal.

Evolution takes place in sports too. Advances in sports technology, training and nutrition have allowed this. Another example - look at how the 100m record has improved over the years!

now, whether today's players are more skillful than those of yesteryear is a completely different issue...

**Wong8Egg** · 03-11-2009, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

are you guys for real?! It shouldn't even be an argument.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.

No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha

It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.

Well said. I like your Ferrari example.

I am sure somebody in the future will once again top out LD, but for now I'd say he is the best.

**mettayogi** · 03-11-2009, 08:22 PM

This question comes up because people have quite different ideas of what 'best baddy player' means. It could mean any of the following (and implied by some posters)
1. He has the highest probability of winning against any player.
2. He has the best technique
3. He is the most famous player (good or bad)
4. He has most fans (or admirers)
A marketing survey is likely to focus on meaning 3 or 4. What is discussed probably implies 1. Historical record will settle that LD has the best winning record against current players in the past 18 months. Guessing what will happen with a time machine is anyone's guess.

For that matter, If ZJW is born 15 years later, I suspect he will beat LD since any advantage of evolution is eliminated.

**viver** · 03-11-2009, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

ZJH is gifted in skills and touches like TH, but LD is gifted with excellent anticipation and athletic body, but people always neglected that.

Somewhere in the forum you can find the 1985 All England final between Zhao and Morten Frost. You can watch the match and conclude if the about 20 year old Zhao anticipation and athleticism. Remember Morten Frost, was a top singles player and regarded a master tactician.

My personal opinion on Zhao at 19, was already a great player, great court coverage skills (technically superior than the current Lin Dan) and excellent shots selection, tactically speaking. When we compare the attacking ability, Zhao already had a good net play at that age which allowed him to create the attacking opportunities for himself- can we analyse the placements for example, the angles that ZJH could produce vs LD?

Also on this forum, there is an interview on coach Fang Kai Xiang. Look for it and find out his views on badminton. It's an good read and I found it educational.

**phaarix** · 03-11-2009, 10:02 PM

It's like long time tennis fans. They still think the like of Borg or McEnroe could stand up to Federer or Nadal (assuming they use modern equipment :P). If you actually watch them it's glaringly obvious who is "better". As to who is "greater", that's more open to debate

(and kind of down to personal opinion too...). It's just like athletics or swimming where world records are broken year after year. I agree with "yourbestfriend" hehe.