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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by venkatesh View Post
    I know this question is not addressed to me. Sorry for butting in.

    Perhaps to make the voice stop? Isn't that the reward/reinforcement?

    I'm no expert
    well, then everything we do is based on reward and reinforcement: eating, breathing, walking.

    Q: why did the chicken cross the road
    A: because the reward/reinforcement to get to the other made it do it?

    no, u r not butting in. Anybody is welcome to contribute

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    Quote Originally Posted by venkatesh View Post
    I know this question is not addressed to me. Sorry for butting in.

    Perhaps to make the voice stop? Isn't that the reward/reinforcement?

    I'm no expert
    so back to my original question, is fear of punishment and pain is a greater reward/reinforcement than money and fame, the typical motive of a pro athlete?

  3. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    u didnt answer my example, this type of killer draw no pleasure nor financial reward. The voice told him/her to do it. How does this fit into the reward/reinforcement theory ?
    This is one good psychological question. A mystery, perhaps, in certain circumstances. However, i think it's explicable. Don't worry. Ask the expert.
    I'm of the opinion that the reward shouldn't always be in monetary form or normal pleasure that one could have.
    When they did what they'd want to do, it's a reward.
    And everyone may see it differently.

    Thus, i think this suit the rewarding theory. You'll work for what you'd want to. And please, don't say every pleasure is visible. Humans are too complex for that.

  4. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    well, then everything we do is based on reward and reinforcement: eating, breathing, walking.
    We eat, breathe, and walk ... to live. For me, that's the reward already.
    Again, I'm no expert.
    I'm still waiting for our in-house shrink's expert answer

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fidget View Post
    It is doubtful that simple economic or purely logical reasons are the explanation why people in either the "democratic" or "military" systems succeed. Cold logic is not enough to succeed.

    In a rigid system, the majority of people who stick it out will be those whose personalities can take pointless repetition and who find it sufficient incentive to please a slave-driving coach. The Chinese system surely has plenty of such automatons. But there has to be something special about those who rise to the very top. Utter self-confidence somehow mixed with the prerequisite servility to the coach/system. Weird. Think Lin Dan.

    For a democratic nation, the people who succeed are those very self-motivated types that can never be happy with themselves; those who, despite every societal pressure luring them to easy pleasures, force themselves to perfection. Think Peter Rasmussen.

    What says the great sports med guru? Are these types the same animal born in different systems. Would they have both reached the top if they had been brought up in the others culture?
    Although this also covers the theory of reward/ reinforcement (behavioral theory) This leads me to another theory, simple law of nature, the strong shall live and the weak shall die, Charles Darwin emphasized this theory (he is the same scientist who said that human beings are products of millions of years of evolution from the family of chimps) that the drive to survive is the strongest motivator in any living being. Well if badminton is your bread and butter, that is, in the case of Lin Dan, or any other nations which have produced great players from poverty, they don't only play for fame, fortune or whatever, they play to live, because it serves as their only way out. When you are in that type of situation Im very sure you would rather play badminton than die of slavery or hunger, and no amount of punishment or slave-driving coach will stop you because it is your only way out, to feed yourself and your family. This is what makes these players so remarkable, sports goes beyond just being a game, its their life that is on the line everytime they step on the court.

    I dont know in the case of Peter Rasmussen, I don't know much of a background about him, but im pretty sure he has his own motivations/ reasons which reinforces him to strive for perfection in the sport.

    Being competitive is a part of human nature, that's why we engage in sports and other competitive activites, only that 20 million years ago we compete against dinosaurs and other beings for us to live. That covers 2 theories, the theory of reward and reinforcement, and the evolutionary/ survival theory by Charles Darwin.

  6. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by venkatesh View Post
    We eat, breathe, and walk ... to live. For me, that's the reward already.
    Again, I'm no expert.
    I'm still waiting for our in-house shrink's expert answer
    Yes that is right, to live is enough reward, it covers another theory, the biological theory. Yes everything we do is reward/ reinforcement driven, these includes biological needs such as eating, breathing, walking and other activites which we do. It's our own body that tells us what we need for us to live.

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    so back to my original question, is fear of punishment and pain is a greater reward/reinforcement than money and fame, the typical motive of a pro athlete?
    yes, this is another type of reinforcement, it's called negative reinforcements, but according to research pro athletes are both externally/ reinforcement driven and internally/ self-motivated, in the case of Lin Dan, external reinforcements are fear of punishment, being a social outcast and other socially driven negative reinforcements, positive reinforcements which includes a simple praise from his coach, fans or whoever, and internal motivators such as the need to provide the basic need of his family and himself, the basic motivation to survive.

    To produce an elite athlete, it must be a balance of the proper reinforcements given by the people or the society around him that will lead to internal or self reinforcements in which the reinforcement already comes from within, that is havinf self-motivation or drive to sustain any hardships that will come in his way to success.

    In the case of the kid you need to provide him with positive reinforcements like praise, money or whatever until he has a sense of self-motivation, when he is already internally motivated and produces the proper responses (attitude, proper stroke etc.) at the same time enjoys playing badminton, then comes the punishments or negative reinforcements.

  8. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    well, then everything we do is based on reward and reinforcement: eating, breathing, walking.

    Q: why did the chicken cross the road
    A: because the reward/reinforcement to get to the other made it do it?

    no, u r not butting in. Anybody is welcome to contribute
    why would the chicken get to the other side without any reason? probably the chicken got to the other side because it saw some food, or any other stimulus which is rewarding/ reinforcing him to go to the other side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    i think that is too general of a statement. It is common sense that people do thing for a reason, it is not ancient secret or scientific fact. I mean it is too general because there are exceptions. I have to use an off topic example, if a serial killer search and kill innocent victims because he/she was hearing voices in his head, what reward or motive that drive him/her to do this out of norm activity/function?

    If there are a hundred voices in your head which tells you to kill somebody, probably you would do it to make the voices shut up

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    Anyway guys, Im no expert, im just 19 years of age by the way! Just trying to answer your questions using the knowledge i've learned in school, basically just trying to help

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    Quote Originally Posted by macazteeg View Post
    Anyway guys, Im no expert, im just 19 years of age by the way! Just trying to answer your questions using the knowledge i've learned in school, basically just trying to help
    And of course, that was welcomed here. Keep it on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    oops, i forgot to attach this pic with my last post
    just one more smash from cooler
    Sorry for being offtrack.

    Is Asia Badminton still in business? I cant find the magazines here in SG

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    Quote Originally Posted by macazteeg View Post
    If there are a hundred voices in your head which tells you to kill somebody, probably you would do it to make the voices shut up
    isn't it much easier to go see a doctor and/or a shrink?
    Also, doesn't this show negative reinforcement is more powerful and effective than postive reinforcement? I think in a democratic society, u can't convince someone to kill innocent people for no money, theoretically speaking.
    Last edited by cooler; 03-31-2009 at 12:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macazteeg View Post
    Anyway guys, Im no expert, im just 19 years of age by the way! Just trying to answer your questions using the knowledge i've learned in school, basically just trying to help
    i'm no expert either, i just like to hear teachings from the academic side of things

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    Quote Originally Posted by macazteeg View Post
    why would the chicken get to the other side without any reason? probably the chicken got to the other side because it saw some food, or any other stimulus which is rewarding/ reinforcing him to go to the other side.
    that was my point, why does psychology make it their formal set of principle to explain human behavior when it is an widely accepted beliefs that people/animal do things for a reason, plus there are exceptions to this which common people knows that too. This exception to the psychology's rule is so intriguing that they made a movie out of it, remember james dean's Rebel without a Cause? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAlzg...eature=related Can psychology explain why some people rebel without a cause?
    Last edited by cooler; 03-31-2009 at 12:32 PM.

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    Another example of negative reinforcement related to badminton is :

    “Hafiz is still the skilful player we all know. In India this time, he was able to push himself, probably because of the stern warning from the BAM,” said Rashid.

    It seem all the past positive reinforcment since HH's last success in 2006 phillipine open,didn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    Another example of negative reinforcement related to badminton is :

    “Hafiz is still the skilful player we all know. In India this time, he was able to push himself, probably because of the stern warning from the BAM,” said Rashid.

    It seem all the past positive reinforcment since HH's last success in 2006 phillipine open,didn't work.
    You're right, it's got to be carrots and sticks.
    Just look at the child of an over-indulgent parent and you'll see the results of unmitigated positive reinforcement.


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