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  1. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo64 View Post
    HI,

    When you stand in front of the court, you are usually placed correctly, taking a step back and all, but then you rush forward as soon as you see that your partner played a drop.
    I think you should rather wait for the opponent to actually hit the shuttle before rushing for the kill instead of anticipating a net shot, because it leaves to much room behind you for the opponents to play a push or a drive effectively. Against this pair, it's ok, because they are very passive defenders, but against other people you will lose the attack very often, or make mistakes because of this. And even if they play a drop, then you stand too close to then net (in front of the service line) so you're not in the best position to counterdrop, if you can't kill it. Whatever happens, you should almost never wait for a shot standing before the service line.

    As the front guy, you job is to Keep the Attack on, no matter what. Killing drops comes in second. Try reducing the divorce zone between you and your partner, it will be more difficult for your opponents to gain the upper hand again.

    Would anyone else agree with me?
    I think what Venkatesh is doing correct in this situation.

    His partner does not smash well-nor his opponents. Hence it is kind of a dead lock on who will make the kill & Venkatesh need to make use of every situation that is available. He knows that his partner is most likely to drop & he plays accordingly. Opponents are under pressure when he charges the net. They are not taking drops above the tape anyway-so their only option is lift. And his partner is there at the back to play another drop & Venkatesh can feel satisfied-atleast he got an opertunity to charge and scare the opponents. What else he will do by standing behind T when his partner is so kind that he does not want to smash?-Simply watch till opponents play a net shot, then go and lift it?

  2. #1107
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    I wouldn't say you were the weaker one out of the partnership, don't be so hard on yourself - maybe more willing to let him run himself around the court to death haha...

    I do appreciate that the game you were playing did make it easier, but even so I find if I start doing things like that, it's all too easy for myself to fall into bad habits, you can also treat it as training in some respects- it will improve your reaction time and ability to move that way against better opponents, you're purposefully making it more of a challenge for yourself- which is likely to get improvements .

    Of course it's all opinion but if I didn't open up a question, I wouldn't have understood why you do things in the way you chose to do so too, so we're both getting something out of it. I'll have a look into the reason for amleto saying that as you suggest, I by no means think myself a complete player either so i'm always open to new thoughts.

    Thanks!

  3. #1108
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    OK, I think you misunderstood me a little. I was not being clear enough, sorry about that.

    I am not saying you should always stay in the middle of the court. You are right when you say that when you feel your partner played a drop, you should go forward. I do, too, because I know the response won't usually be fast and I can put more pressure on the other guys.
    But I think you go forward too much.
    You take one step back, then instead of taking one step forward, you jump forward and stand too close to the net. I believe you should get back to your original position, right behind the T.
    Get back to the T, then split drop and jump if needed to hit the shuttle as early as possible. You're currently doing it in this order: jump, then split drop (well, actually land from your previous jump, but it has the same effect as a giant split drop) and try to hit the shuttle.
    To put it another way, when you move, your first step is too big. The first step should be small, to be able to change directions earlier and be faster. That's what badmintonbible says about covering the court IIRC.

    I think you forgot one shot in your explanation, and this is precisely the one that interests me
    As a response to a drop, the opponent can also play a cross court net shot. And if you stand too close, you will not be able to get the shuttle in good position (ie not in front of you but on the side), maybe not even hit it at all ! And this should be your main concern, I believe, since there is no way your partner will be able to help you cover this area.
    Now, maybe you have never come across opponents who could play a very good cross court net shot, in case you don't really need to do what I suggest, but I have, and I can tell you that you immediately feel that something is wrong when you stand close to the net and still cannot reach the damn birdie^^

    As AimUK has said, if I were playing against you, I would notice that habit very easily and use it against you to make you make more mistakes. It's quite simple to take the shuttle early enough to play either a good cross court net shot, a very good straight netshot (against which you would have a hard time, since the net would be in your way) or a push in the open space behind you.

    Let's continue with this bit : you should never cross out a kind of return. Even though you have to trust your partner, and believe he will hit his best shot every time, you have to be ready for everything. You never know when he is gonna hit the frame, or decide to play a drive instead of a smash, or miss his smash and be countered, or, with aggressive opponents in defense, be countered even if the drop if good (yes, it happens, and not necessarily at very high levels of play). But well, this assertion was for discussion purposes, so I won't "blame" you for it .

    Code:
    I love watching mixed doubles. This is what the girls usually do. The girls are usually taken for granted, but I think successful pairs are those with good front ladies. And if you're going to observe, they raise their racket up high enough to intercept but not to high to block the guys' view and smash.
    Well, XD is different in that aspect, because there is a lady in front of you too So it's "natural" to expect a weaker reply if the man is smashing straight at the woman. In that case I think this is arguable, you're right.

    As for the "racket up" part, if you are referring to what I suggested you, I guess you read me wrong again
    When you hold your racket up, the height of the racket head is good. What I was talking about was rather the distance between your racket head and your body. Same height, but farther in front of you. I don't see how that blocks your partner's view, since your body already hides your racket head
    Another way of saying this would be to put more distance between your elbow and your body.
    Try it on drive drills, it works wonders.

    Nprince, you consider playing drop shots as being nice?
    I think that's the best attacking shot
    It's the only attacking shot in badminton that both moves your opponent out of position and force him to play below net height. Smashes are great, but usually (and actually 95% of the time in doubles) you don't make your opponent move with them. So all you need is good reflexes.
    Plus, even if the opponent returns the drop, he has to play a lift, which I consider the most difficult shot in badminton. Playing a lift is easy, playing a good lift consistently is incredibly hard. Actually, I noticed most of the errors the pros make are on lifts, about the same amount of errors as far as smash returns are concerned.

    Well, that's my opinion, I know I will not convince a lot of people with this, you cannot override the impact of a great smash on people's minds.

  4. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo64 View Post
    OK, I think you misunderstood me a little. I was not being clear enough, sorry about that.

    I am not saying you should always stay in the middle of the court. You are right when you say that when you feel your partner played a drop, you should go forward. I do, too, because I know the response won't usually be fast and I can put more pressure on the other guys.
    But I think you go forward too much.

    As AimUK has said, if I were playing against you, I would notice that habit very easily and use it against you to make you make more mistakes. It's quite simple to take the shuttle early enough to play either a good cross court net shot, a very good straight netshot (against which you would have a hard time, since the net would be in your way) or a push in the open space behind you.
    I watched that video again. From the angle, it does look like I'm really close to the net. But if you're going to look at my feet, doesn't it look like I rush and stay almost behind the T zone? Believe me, I'm not that close as you see it. I have perfect view where the shuttle is headed. It's hard to explain further but I think height is another factor here. My view of how close I am to the net would be totally different from taller people. Plus, I think my rushes have been quite successful as I have made net kills 3 times in the set.

    Another thing. Look at the movements of the opponent. Do they look like they can make a cross court net shot? They're almost always out of balance when returning my partner's slow/fast drops. Thus, I thought that they only have 2 kinds of returns, drop or lift. Shouldn't I take advantage of that? Perhaps you would take advantage of me. But it doesn't look like they're taking advantage of it. And if it's a different case, I think I'm capable of adjusting as well, thank you very much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo64 View Post

    As for the "racket up" part, if you are referring to what I suggested you, I guess you read me wrong again
    When you hold your racket up, the height of the racket head is good
    Wow, sorry buddy, but you got me confused there. I thought this was what you posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo64 View Post
    Oh, and wait with your racket up ( you don't always do it)
    Anyways, perhaps you're right, I must have read it wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo64 View Post
    What I was talking about was rather the distance between your racket head and your body. Same height, but farther in front of you. I don't see how that blocks your partner's view, since your body already hides your racket head
    Another way of saying this would be to put more distance between your elbow and your body.
    Try it on drive drills, it works wonders.
    This is noted. Thank you. That's actually a good point. After the smash, when the shuttle is loose, I only need to tap because my racket is already in front of me. If they make a counter drop, the racket is already in front to kill or cross or counter drop. Wow. Thanks. This point actually lead me to watch my MD video collections. Their racket (LYD, JJS, CY, Passke, JR, etc) is not actually upward, it's more of pointing/slanting forward.

    And yes nbprince, your point about putting pressure to the opponents when the front player is aggressive is definitely correct. In the latter games, they stopped playing drop shots because I have caught the birdie and made net kills several times.

    Wow. The things we learn here. Thanks guys.
    Last edited by venkatesh; 07-25-2011 at 11:03 AM.

  5. #1110
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    AimUK were you wearing a red shirt on the saturday of the tournament?
    If so.... i know who you are (evil laugh)
    Nah its good to finally find someone on here ive atleast seen/met

  6. #1111
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    Yes I was, thing is I don't know who you are haha. :P

  7. #1112
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    I was on the balcony with u n hobley before your singles started
    well done on the singles btw
    wish id played doubles now
    but took mixed so pretty happy anyways

  8. #1113
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    Well I must say you are right.
    Most of the time, you are behind the service line, I apologize. I really had the feeling you were half a step closer more often, even though I was looking at your feet the whole time. My bad.

    But I still think your step-in is too big, it might be better not to engage yourself too much on the first step in order to avoid being mislead sometimes, and overall it should be, and feel smoother ( i would say a
    good indicator would be the sound you make while you move, if it's loud then you ought to try a smoother approach).
    I guess that point is up to personal preference though, but if you never tried it, give it a shot so you know what fits you best.

    I agree, against such opponents, it won't make a difference. But that's precisely during such matches that you should try something new, or perfect one aspect of your game. The easier the game is, the harder on yourself you have to be.

    About the racket thing, yes, it's really useful, you 'll get to a whole new level if you manage to do it. Both on attacking and defensive stances/shots, you should try to play as far away from your body as you can.
    Less time for your opponent to react, less things for you to worry about( just put the racket on the shuttle path and change grips if needed), better range of shots, better control, beter power for lifts...
    I think Lee Jae Bok was the one that pointed this out first in one of his videos. It sounds stupid, but when you try, it's sooo effective. And then you realize that EVERY shot follows that rule in theory. And you go like "Hell, yeah, it's so obvious now".^^

    To finish, I would not say height matters here. I am 173 cms, which is small, and have no problems of view whatsoever while having the same playstyle as you. Being either small or tall have pros and cons that are balacned in the end. I believe being tall is better for back court skills, and being small for netplay and fast paced exchanges (roughly), but it should not affect your base position on court, apart from specific situations (i'm thinking of the return of serve, but thats pretty much it)

  9. #1114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuzo64 View Post
    Nprince, you consider playing drop shots as being nice?
    I think that's the best attacking shot
    It's the only attacking shot in badminton that both moves your opponent out of position and force him to play below net height. Smashes are great, but usually (and actually 95% of the time in doubles) you don't make your opponent move with them. So all you need is good reflexes.
    Plus, even if the opponent returns the drop, he has to play a lift, which I consider the most difficult shot in badminton. Playing a lift is easy, playing a good lift consistently is incredibly hard. Actually, I noticed most of the errors the pros make are on lifts, about the same amount of errors as far as smash returns are concerned.

    Well, that's my opinion, I know I will not convince a lot of people with this, you cannot override the impact of a great smash on people's minds.
    Yuzo64,
    I agree with you that drop shots are attacking. But the problem is being a habitual droper (by habit or by physical limitations)

    You expect your partner to play the most attacking shot possible in the situation. I hate it when my partner has opertunity to play a decissive smash-but instead choose to play a drop. That happens a lot in club level games.

    It is even more irritating when you fought your hearts out to gain the attack. You wait behind T waiting for interceptions, but you never get it because, your partner plays a drop and opponents lift it all the way to the back corners. And when they know that probability of your partner smashing from back corners are less, they will move closer to the net. From here, anything less than perfect would be counter attacked. As a front player, you are forced to fight for the attack again-but for what?

  10. #1115
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    Yeah, I know that feeling, man.

    But that just means your partner does not understand the purpose and the use of a drop shot, and that he is a poor "builder", playing without thinking how to win the point.

    In most cases, I play drops so that my next shuttle at the back will be easier to smash. If you play to win, of course, otherwise this discussion is not really relevant.

    Anyway, as long as you gained the attack, you did your job. What your partner does with it is up to him, and you cannot change that fact. Just try to find someone you will have more fun playing with !

  11. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by nprince View Post
    Yuzo64,
    I agree with you that drop shots are attacking. But the problem is being a habitual droper (by habit or by physical limitations)

    You expect your partner to play the most attacking shot possible in the situation. I hate it when my partner has opertunity to play a decissive smash-but instead choose to play a drop. That happens a lot in club level games.

    It is even more irritating when you fought your hearts out to gain the attack. You wait behind T waiting for interceptions, but you never get it because, your partner plays a drop and opponents lift it all the way to the back corners. And when they know that probability of your partner smashing from back corners are less, they will move closer to the net. From here, anything less than perfect would be counter attacked. As a front player, you are forced to fight for the attack again-but for what?
    You nailed it. You totally understand what I feel.

    And Yuzo54, just to clarify things, I'm not saying that height matters. All I'm saying is that height makes a difference in the style of game. My game play would be totally different at the rear court from a tall player because of the angle difference. The same point as regards the height level relative to the net, the core balance, the defense, the distance of the lunge, the number of steps, etc. It's just a matter of adjustment and making sure that the pros are used and the cons are covered.
    Last edited by venkatesh; 07-26-2011 at 09:48 PM.

  12. #1117
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    Filmed some net skills on iphone at end of sessions with player today, might be useful for people.

  13. #1118
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    Sorry about lettering on video at start, free conversion software..

  14. #1119
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    nice. gotta practice some of those!

  15. #1120
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    Not looking forward to playing alex again in the league :P

    He's looking very strong these days!

    I'm just wondering something that you will probably know-though it's only training I would think he doesn't give it away in a game.

    He drops his non racquet arm very suddenly before he plays that shot cross court lift, whereas it doesn't occur when he's hitting the straight drop.

    Do you think he's likely to do this in game & would an opponent pick up on it?
    Last edited by AimUk; 08-03-2011 at 05:51 PM.

  16. #1121
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    Well noticed, its caused by the sudden tension in the racket arm, I don't thnk it affects the pre-hit impression given to opponent, though its an interesting observation. All of these shots are a work in progress.

  17. #1122
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    Thanks Kwun! Any comment from you makes a post worthwhile! Any questions ask me
    Last edited by dlp; 08-03-2011 at 06:08 PM.

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