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  1. #4523
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    Assumption: BP change changes swing feel.
    Sir, you need to be more specific:

    1) What do you mean by "feel"?
    2) How much change do you mean?

    Because if you asked Panda the assumption in a question, "Do changes in BP change swing feel?"

    Panda would say, "In general, yes, but it's not significant enough. It would significant if it were an extreme change or to the a person who is very sensitive to change (or perceived change)."

    Just a fun story (at least for Panda) sort of relating to this is the preference of racket balance over grip size:

    Tony G. had both a 3UG4 US Code Arc Saber 10 and Voltric 70.

    Arc Saber 10: had the original grip removed and one Super Grap overgrip that was double layered. The grip size was about a G4.5.

    Voltric 70: had the original grip in place, and added a Super Grap overgrip that was wrapped at the edge. The grip size was about G3.5.

    Panda asked why the difference in grip size? Tony said normally he prefers a slightly heavier 3U. This specific Arc 10 was a bit lighter than he preferred so he made the grip smaller to give it a more head heavy feel. He said the V70 was OK. Panda then stated, "So for you, the balance of the racket is more important for you than the grip size." He replied, "That's right, it's easier for me to adjust to the grip size than the balance." Tony was amused by Panda's question because he said, "People do not ask me these kinds of questions."

    Then Panda mentioned he makes rackets and let Tony swing 3 different Ultra Pros, all near identical specs (+/- 0.2g and 1mm). He picked up each one, did a few dry swings and said, "All three are very consistent." Panda replied, "Yes, all three have nearly the same balance point and weight." He said, "Oh, no wonder, that's good. You should have rackets matching, more consistent. In badminton we try to be as consistent as possible." < Tony's smile.

    This was Panda's smile =

  2. #4524
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    Should be, "adding overgrips changes racket bp, and the change in BP affects how the swing feels, and the difference is noticable"

  3. #4525
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    Should be, "adding overgrips changes racket bp, and the change in BP affects how the swing feels, and the difference is noticable"
    That sounds pretty good, let's clarify a bit more...

    All else equal, adding an overgrip to a racket:

    1) decreases the BP making it swing/feel less head heavy
    2) increases the overall weight
    3) the difference should be noticeable but not always as it's dependent on the user.


  4. #4526
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    Do you agree or disagree that wearing more rings on your racket hand will have the same effect?

  5. #4527
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    Do you agree or disagree that wearing more rings on your racket hand will have the same effect?
    First off, Panda is no expert in physics, math, materials science or dynamics; not even close.

    That said, Panda doesn't think it will have the same effect because the ring is not part of the racket. With the ring, you are making the hand heavier but not the racket. A ring on an arm is not significant (a few ounces. vs. the whole limb, say 10lbs.) Panda thinks adding 7-9g to one end of an 85g racket makes much more difference.

    But that's just Panda.

    On another note we want to practice safe badminton and minimize injuries: Panda doesn't wear rings and believes a ring will bother, even potentially injure a person's playing hand. So Panda does not condone wearing a ring on the playing hand when playing badminton.

  6. #4528
    Regular Member Mark A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    It is complicated & there are more things to consider than a simple measurement, but people should remember that by changing a dry weight racket of 290mm to 280mm by adding weight to the handle won't make the racket play like a dry weight 280mm BPT racket.
    This needs putting on a plaque, really. Those keen tennisers of you out there will know that (top end) tennis rackets have both a "pickup" weight and a "swing" weight, and that two rackets with the same pickup weight (viz. what the scale tells you) can play completely differently.

    Consider, as a thought experiement, a three-foot-long steel pipe and three-foot-long bamboo stick with a metal weight in the middle. It would be possible to get these two items to weigh exactly the same and to have exactly the same balance point, but would they swing the same? No, of course not. Without getting too technical, amleto has already called it - moment of inertia: basically, the "swing" of a racket isn't just determined by the mass and balance, but also by how the mass is distributed along the length of the racket, so a huge discontinuous blob of weight at the handle end won't turn a stock 290 into a stock 280.

    Also, rings on the hand will make negligible difference - they're so close to the fulcrum (wrist) that the moment isn't felt at all.

    All else equal, adding an overgrip to a racket:

    1) decreases the BP making it swing/feel less head heavy
    2) increases the overall weight
    3) the difference should be noticeable but not always as it's dependent on the user.
    This is all correct, but effects 1) and 2) will interfere with each other - increase in weight, no matter where it is, will make the racket more difficult to swing, with the effect becoming more pronounce as the arm is extended.
    Last edited by Mark A; 02-15-2011 at 02:51 PM.

  7. #4529
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    I might be soundling like a broken record with this, but I still fail to see how adding overgrips etc will significantly alter the playing characteristic of the racquet. sure, you changed the bp, but thats just a pseudo technical stat. you havent changed the moment of inertia, and thats the physical property that will affect how the swing feels.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    I have to say I agree. The only thing additional grips should affect are the grip size & the overall weight of the racket. The moment of the racket (the effective force gravity effects on the racket when horizontal) is unchanged, even though when you balance the racket on your finger along the shaft may change significantly.

    This is why lead tape IS effective at changing the BPT as when you hold the grip the moment is changed.
    I can only suggest: try it out and you will feel ! An AT700 modded to a 275mm bp feels light as a feather even though the actual weight has increased ... with most of the weight added below the pivot point of thumb and index finger.

    edit: I should add that athletic tape was also wrapped around the base of the buttcap as extra weight/to create that bulge, I guess similar to adding leadtape at the bottom. (Was a borrowed racket)
    Last edited by demolidor; 02-15-2011 at 03:12 PM.

  8. #4530
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    For what it's worth...
    I tried to play with the Ti-10 with 2 TIGHTLY WOUND overgrips and it didn't play as good as just one loosely wound overgrip. Can't specifically say what, but it just didn't feel right.

  9. #4531
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Grrr ... 15 minutes . Time to take some aspirine .

    So it's bp change by overgrip/replacement grip vs bp change through leadtape or alternatives at the very end of the racket? Changing playing characteristics vs changing feel ... I can only say carying around that modded AT700 felt a lot lighter than a stock one when you have your grip relaxed in between shots. The actual swing and impact might not have changed but everything leading up to it felt like a lesser bp. But I guess you'd put this one in the leadtape mod catergory?

    Should note I didn't have that modded one and a stock one in use at the same time ...
    Last edited by demolidor; 02-15-2011 at 03:36 PM.

  10. #4532
    Regular Member j4ckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A View Post
    This needs putting on a plaque, really. Those keen tennisers of you out there will know that (top end) tennis rackets have both a "pickup" weight and a "swing" weight, and that two rackets with the same pickup weight (viz. what the scale tells you) can play completely differently.

    Consider, as a thought experiement, a three-foot-long steel pipe and three-foot-long bamboo stick with a metal weight in the middle. It would be possible to get these two items to weigh exactly the same and to have exactly the same balance point, but would they swing the same? No, of course not. Without getting too technical, amleto has already called it - moment of inertia: basically, the "swing" of a racket isn't just determined by the mass and balance, but also by how the mass is distributed along the length of the racket, so a huge discontinuous blob of weight at the handle end won't turn a stock 290 into a stock 280.

    Also, rings on the hand will make negligible difference - they're so close to the fulcrum (wrist) that the moment isn't felt at all.



    This is all correct, but effects 1) and 2) will interfere with each other - increase in weight, no matter where it is, will make the racket more difficult to swing, with the effect becoming more pronounce as the arm is extended.
    By that logic, adding weight at one end (head or handle) will change the characteristics more dramatically than an even addition of weight - which is correct. Following that train of though adding weight at the handle WILL make your racket play less head-heavy. Having a bigger part of the overall mass in your hand, near to the fulcrum, you will feel that the rest of the racket is lighter (although part of that is subjective feel rather than a fact). The racket won't get much faster, but keeping in mind that while changing the BP, we also add weight, that is not surprising at all. I believe a 290, 82g racket modded and compared to a 280, 85,5g racket will perform very similar.
    Anyhow, as I mentioned, I'll try to come up with a mathematical explanation which will no doubt bore the crap out of you if completed (or, if unsuccessful, will drive me insane^^). Even then, although it might be proven objectively that is does / does not change the characteristics, how a racket feels is subjective and perhaps ppl are just different that way....and there's no way I could tell anyone what he HAS to feel when he picks up a racket

  11. #4533
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4ckie View Post
    Anyhow, as I mentioned, I'll try to come up with a mathematical explanation which will no doubt bore the crap out of you if completed (or, if unsuccessful, will drive me insane^^).
    Ben, there's no need. We should just conclude:

    Play with whatever set-up is most comfortable with you.
    If you're not sure, experiment a little.

    Because it doesn't matter what anyone or even what the math says, if you like something a certain way and you feel it makes you play better, then go for it.

  12. #4534
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    LOL, this reminds me of D&D Gnomes trying to perfect machinery.

  13. #4535
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimcorner View Post
    LOL, this reminds me of D&D Gnomes trying to perfect machinery.
    Original D&D was schweeeeet! Back in the day... Panda had the privilege, along with thousands of others, hearing Gary Gygax DM (Dungeon Master) in the mid 80s, back when it was all verbal, physical dice, pencil and paper. It was so awesome! With baited breath we listened and his voice echoed through the loudspeakers. With every nuance, every gesture, every pause, every sigh, we were completely engrossed.

    It was the best of times, it was the best of times.

  14. #4536
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    it might just be you guys that like overgrips etc 'to bring the bp down' just have massive hands. The fact that the grip now fits your hand much better makes it easier to swing!

    Ok, back on topic. Back on panda racquets What's the eta for uk distribution Panda/Mark?

  15. #4537
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post

    Now, I will be very suspicious if anyone ever claims that switching their wedding band to the other hand was just the trick to make the racket more head light.
    No, that's just because that person is playing the opposite *** and pretending to be single :P

  16. #4538
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinkAlot View Post
    Original D&D was schweeeeet! Back in the day... Panda had the privilege, along with thousands of others, hearing Gary Gygax DM (Dungeon Master) in the mid 80s, back when it was all verbal, physical dice, pencil and paper. It was so awesome! With baited breath we listened and his voice echoed through the loudspeakers. With every nuance, every gesture, every pause, every sigh, we were completely engrossed.

    It was the best of times, it was the best of times.
    Pencil and dice is the only way to go man! I only started during 2nd ed. I tried the new one and it was terrible! Felt like a computer game instead of real game.

    I let one of the coaches here play with it and he said "racquet good!"
    I let the other coach look at it and he said "bah" (he is yonex rep).

    Can't win them all.

  17. #4539
    Regular Member DinkAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimcorner View Post
    I let one of the coaches here play with it and he said "racquet good!"
    I let the other coach look at it and he said "bah" (he is yonex rep).

    Can't win them all.
    Playing and looking are two completely different things.

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