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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombads View Post
    .............

    Despite best intentions, if words written or said are found to be offensive, the polite thing to do is recant or apologise or at least attempt to understand the reaction. In this case, I responded to some of the comments posted in this thread for the very reason they were offensive to me as a member and as a female badminton player. Getting a hostile response, or being patronised and condescended to really does not alleviate the initial offense and instead, compounds it. ........
    .
    Errr, getting hostile response,etc is quite normal, whatever gender. If we (females) react, then we're branded as emotional xxxx, no-win situation. If they react same way never mind, we react cannot, hehe .
    So dont bother lah about the irritating ones, join us in the other threads - currently the Spore SS is on.

    In real life, I hear even worse comments about women players, whenever it's WS or WD, TV gets turned to another channel or viewers walk off with comments along the lines of "women cant play lah, why you want to watch ?".

  2. #36
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    With reference to Gollum (#33) and Kinoko's (#34) posts above, I certainly don't agree women or men 'outperform' each other when we don't have baseline studies of what performances we are referring. To say so and to continue harping on gender difference does not answer the original question effectively.
    I bring your attention to a previous thread at http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=22530 which I found to be more enlightening and less generalist.
    My impression is that the overall training program for women players (different for WD and WS again, and differnet again with new sports research) is geared towards a differnet style of play that includes tactical as well as physical strategies. I don't deny that physiology is an important factor (this is true of any sport because sport, by definition, involves the physical) but whether, in this instance, the use of a particular stroke-albeit one that seems to involve an inordinate amount of explosive energy-is tailored towards body type, muscle type or game play, and when is it beneficial to utilise it.
    Since I am neither a phys ed trainer nor strategy coach, I don't have the answer but I would be interested in some good research. I've used the jump smash in competition to great effect, much to my own surprise, so I don't know why it is not more widely used, unless perhaps it is by itself a difficult stroke to learn.
    For those interested, a simple internet search will explain the difference between "explosive strength" and "power", and the how speed and muscle affect efficacy. Interestingly, hip and thigh strength is universally seen as the basis for strong vertical jumps. Considering that women have considerable strength in that area, jumps should be naturally easier to perform, and yet we aren't trained nor encouraged to do so in Badminton, compared with sports such as Volleyball, Basketball or even Handball.
    Therefore, at this stage, I can only surmise that women don't jump smash more often because we are not trained to do so. Why that is, I do not know. Perhaps a women's coach could provide some input?

  3. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Errr, getting hostile response,etc is quite normal, whatever gender. If we (females) react, then we're branded as emotional xxxx, no-win situation. If they react same way never mind, we react cannot, hehe .
    So dont bother lah about the irritating ones, join us in the other threads - currently the Spore SS is on.

    In real life, I hear even worse comments about women players, whenever it's WS or WD, TV gets turned to another channel or viewers walk off with comments along the lines of "women cant play lah, why you want to watch ?".

    Eagle, I'm sorry you have to endure such terrible attitudes in your favoured sport. I hope, in time, you'll have the opportunity to associate with better players. Enjoy the SSS. Next year, I'll be in Europe for a comp. Perhaps we'll be able to catch a few SS there too.

  4. #38
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    It's disheartening to see that most of the comments in this thread have turned into sexist comments (intended or not). Maybe some see it as a joke (but i dont' think the women will see it that way). But I would like to take a more scientific approach to answer the question, especially since it's somewhat within my field of study.

    Quote Originally Posted by wombads View Post
    Interestingly, hip and thigh strength is universally seen as the basis for strong vertical jumps. Considering that women have considerable strength in that area, jumps should be naturally easier to perform, and yet we aren't trained nor encouraged to do so in Badminton, compared with sports such as Volleyball, Basketball or even Handball.
    Therefore, at this stage, I can only surmise that women don't jump smash more often because we are not trained to do so. Why that is, I do not know. Perhaps a women's coach could provide some input?
    Women have more weight distributed in these areas, but the resulting lower centre of gravity (CG) actually makes it much more difficult for them to elevate vertically in a jump.

    Consider:

    1) Source: wikipedia
    Vertical Jump is the ability to raise one's center of gravity higher in the vertical plane solely with the use of one's own muscles. It is a measure of how high an individual or athlete can elevate off the ground from a standstill.

    2) Source: my biomechanics textbook
    "Research indicates that better...higher jumpers employ both body lean and body flexion just before takeoff to lower the CG and prolong support foot contact time, thus resulting in increased takeoff impulse....The strategy of lowering the CG prior to takeoff enables the athlete to lengthen the vertical path over which the body is accelerated during takeoff, thus facilitating a high vertical velocity at takeoff."

    "The speed and projection angle of an athlete's total body centre of mass largely determine performance outcome in high jump"

    Therefore, two ways of improving vertical jump are 1) lowering the CG, and 2) increasing power (strength/time) in muscles that propel the CG, mainly leg muscles.

    Both men and women are able to lower the CG, but there is a key point here. Since women already have a lower CG, they are not able to lower their CG as much, relative to a man. A man bending down will have lowered his CG more than a woman bending down. Thus, there is greater rebounding effect in men.

    In terms of improving power, I think men and women (especially elite trained), are more equal in that aspect.

    Thus, the reasoning for women not being able to achieve relatively equal vertical jumps as men is biomechanic due to difference in CG.

    Given that this is true, we can apply to badminton. The jump smash in badminton gains its advantage in that the shuttle can be hit as a steeper angle, making it harder for the opponent to reach. Men can reach a higher absolute jump height, meaning they can create more angle with their shot, to the point where the shuttle becomes almost unreachable by their opponents. However, unlike sports like volleyball, the badminton net is NOT lowered for a women's game, meaning that women are not able to reach this same angle on their shots as the men. Since the defense ability of women and men are relatively the same (maybe women even better due to better flexibility and stability near the ground), a jump smash from a woman is rendered harmless because they are not able to smash at an angle that makes defense overly difficult. Thus, the jump smash for women, while as equally if not more physically demanding as the jump smash for men, is not as efficient at winning points as it is for the men.

    If you watch women jump smash in badminton, you'll still find that many of the jump smashes are actually not used for angle (since can't be that steep due to reasons listed above). Instead, the jump smashes are used for more speed on the shuttle and to move opponents out of position. However, probably a shot made on the ground would be just as effective (recovery time faster also). Also, this shot CANNOT be used the same as how the men use it for the steep angle point-ender, so I think this is probably why the jump smash is not as prevalent in the women's game.

  5. #39
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    With reference to Gollum (#33) and Kinoko's (#34) posts above, I certainly don't agree women or men 'outperform' each other when we don't have baseline studies of what performances we are referring.
    I hear the sound of an axe grinding.

    If you insist on rigorous scientific studies as the only grounds for a justified opinion, then it rather restricts the number of subjects of which we can form justified opinions.

    I'm all in favour of scientific studies, but when they don't exist, we just have to muddle through.


    I've used the jump smash in competition to great effect, much to my own surprise, so I don't know why it is not more widely used, unless perhaps it is by itself a difficult stroke to learn.
    You have to distinguish between what works for you, and what works at the elite level. Your jump smash, while devastating against your opponents, would be unlikely to bother the top players.

    I don't claim to have an especially powerful smash, but it was nevertheless humbling to be paired against Lee Young Sook (former world # 2 in singles) in an all-out attack training exercise: I smashed, she blocked, I played a net shot, she lifted, and I smashed again. It didn't matter how hard I hit it, she always got them back.

    And that's not all. Her defence was so frighteningly good that she was able to stand right at the front, which normally would give a defender no time to react. She could have defended against my smashes while reading a book (I'm not even sure that's a hyperbole). Yet when I play against "casual" club players, they are in awe of my smash; it's all relative.

    For any given group of players, there is a balance between attack and defence, which dictates the style of the game. You can think of it as a ratio, R(a,d). If a and d are equal, then R(a,d) has the value 1:1, and the game is evenly balanced between attacking and defensive play.

    You may be a strong attacking player, so let's assign you a = 10. Your opponents have only moderately good defence, so let's give them d = 5. The ratio is 2:1, heavily in favour of your all-out attacking play.

    Now let's suppose you turn professional, and then become a world-class player. Your attack will be greatly improved -- let's say a = 30. But your opponents' defence will have improved even more: d = 25.

    The new ratio is 6:5, which still favours the attacker, but gives the defenders much better chances than they had back when you were playing at a lower level.

    With men, the story is different. Let's suppose a man from your club has a weaker attack than you do, so he starts with a = 5. That gives a 1:1 ratio, so he has to play a balanced game and not go for all-out attack (unlike you, who are strong enough to blast through defences).

    Then, as you did, he turns professional and becomes world-class. But his development will be different from yours. While his opponents' defence is the same, d = 25, his attack is much higher: d = 50. So he gets a 2:1 ratio, which heavily favours all-out attacking tactics.

    This is the explanation I'm offering. It's not that women "can't" play jump smashes, it's just that this choice of shot is less appropriate at the world-class level, because their smashes don't do enough damage against their opponents' defence. The style of the game is dictated by this ratio of attacking vs. defensive capabilities.

    You offer an alternative explanation. You seem to be suggesting that it's all down to what women are taught, and that if only they were taught better, we would see the world-class women jump-smashing just as much as the men. This portrays top-level women's badminton coaching as an institutionally patronising, male-chauvinist activity, which operates on the untested assumption that "women are too feeble to play a good jump smash."

    (Of course, that's just my understanding of what you're saying. It's part of the nature of forums that misunderstanding each other is perilously easy!)

    Your explanation could possibly be correct; there's nothing illogical about it. My reason for disbelieving it is simply that I think badminton training is so developed now, and the competition so extraordinarily fierce at the top, that such an obvious experiment would already have been tried, in order to gain even a slight competitive edge. However, it could just be that all the top badminton nations are dreadfully conservative in their training of women.

    Bear in mind that, in nations such as China at least, the players are trained from a very early age, with the single-minded goal of producing the best possible performer (at peak). Their training is physically demanding in the extreme; if a few players break down physically, there's always more where they came from! It's not as though there's much chance here for "cultural" under-training of women to occur.

    On the other hand, we have seen huge developments in the women's training over the last decade or so; this is particularly evident in mixed, where the top pairs adopt positional strategies closer to level doubles than "traditional" mixed. Perhaps you're right after all, and we'll see similar developments leading to the women's game becoming more like the men's. I'd welcome that.
    Last edited by Gollum; 06-11-2009 at 07:28 AM.

  6. #40
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    In women's volleyball, the net is lower to account for the lower vertical jumps. If they were to play on the higher men's nets, I'm sure you'll see a much more defensively oriented match.

    Now, there are some differences in lower body strength and power between men and women. Just look at powerlifting or olympic lifting records to confirm that. However, an even bigger difference exists for upper body strength. Once you get up into the air for the jump smash, you need an explosive upper body to hit a powerful shot. In my experience, you see a much bigger difference in strength here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblingfeet View Post
    In women's volleyball, the net is lower to account for the lower vertical jumps. If they were to play on the higher men's nets, I'm sure you'll see a much more defensively oriented match.

    Now, there are some differences in lower body strength and power between men and women. Just look at powerlifting or olympic lifting records to confirm that. However, an even bigger difference exists for upper body strength. Once you get up into the air for the jump smash, you need an explosive upper body to hit a powerful shot. In my experience, you see a much bigger difference in strength here.
    That is not the only reason they are lower, consider the fact that woman on average, are shorter then men. I think it should be obvious from a biomechanical perspective, that a woman is at disadvantage towards men. Woman are designed to give birth to a child, with that being said, a woman who competitively plays badminton deserves the upmost respect. Maybe this sort of belittlement is why there is like 10:1 ratio of male to female badminton players.

  8. #42
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William86_98 View Post
    ... But I would like to take a more scientific approach to answer the question, especially since it's somewhat within my field of study.

    Women have more weight distributed in these areas, but the resulting lower centre of gravity (CG) actually makes it much more difficult for them to elevate vertically in a jump.
    ...(rest of explanation snipped for brevity)..
    ..a sound input..(read the other earlier post as well)..
    I, too, would think it has more to do with the women's physiological make up.
    Can they be trained to perform jump smashes like their male counterparts?..Or can training alone be enough for the female players to perform jump smashes like their male counterparts?..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..a sound input..(read the other earlier post as well)..
    I, too, would think it has more to do with the women's physiological make up.
    Can they be trained to perform jump smashes like their male counterparts?..Or can training alone be enough for the female players to perform jump smashes like their male counterparts?..
    There are definite physiological limitations that woman have to deal with, however, they are still capable of functioning in the same way. It's not as though woman don't have the capacity to jump and swing a racket in an efficient way. It's not as though these techniques are paramount. Also the conception generalised of this thread is very belittling and disrespectful towards all woman.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombads View Post
    I'm so glad to see my points taken seriously just because I'm a woman. Not. Good grief, no wonder there aren't more women in this forum if this is the sort of attitude that is carried.

    Despite best intentions, if words written or said are found to be offensive, the polite thing to do is recant or apologise or at least attempt to understand the reaction. In this case, I responded to some of the comments posted in this thread for the very reason they were offensive to me as a member and as a female badminton player. Getting a hostile response, or being patronised and condescended to really does not alleviate the initial offense and instead, compounds it. (By the way, this is not aimed only at bradmyster)

    Now, the topic of this thread was about the lack of jump smash play used by female players, and I've given my thoughts about why this is so. How or why this topic degenerated so quickly into the familiar, and totally untrue, refrain of 'women are physically inferior' does not help further the understanding of how women players are developed in the sport, nor does it help male players understand their XD partners. In my view, any limitation on developing players, for whatever reason, is a disservice to the sport in the long term.
    ok then im sorry if i offended you in any way.
    But if you automatically jumping to the conclusion of "EVERYONES BEING SEXIST AND UNFAIR TOWARDS WOMEN" that kinda ticks me off.

    As stated men have an advantage over woman in speed/agility and strength. Not because I THINK SO but because men are built differently. Im not in anyway stating women are worse than men or that men are the only people who should compete.
    I respect all female sporting people no matter what level. It just gets me upset when after a couple of comments, about women having different physical attributes and strength differences are made, its too far and crossed the line and should never happen again.

    Again im really sorry and dont mean to offend you. (even though i probably have.)
    But it is the internet....dont take things so seriously next time.
    Be confident in yourself and dont take notice of comments on an internet forum.
    Last edited by bradmyster; 06-11-2009 at 09:16 PM.

  11. #45
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    I appreciate the attempts at research and also the reasonable arguments regarding the jump smash. So far, we have ideas about height, and centre of gravity v bounding ability. I'm sure more theories will surface later.

    What I'd like to see (other than less sexist behaviour on and off court - by the way, I appreciate when members recognise offensive behaviour and can step up to the plate by saying such and such is not on - hopefully, this'll be the end of that discussion in this thread for the present) is, if jump smashing is desirable as part of a repertoire (for male and female players), that coaches consider developing a training method suitable for the individual player, either perhaps based on body type, height, upper body strength, style of play...whatever factors lead the player, with the end purpose of recognising that playing styles should be optimised for the individual, and not merely be a grab-all bag. In the larger scheme of things, such tailored programs may then filter through to the non-competitive ranks who, in turn, will pick up the developed ideas suitable for themselves.

    In the meantime, I hope that players who don't use the jump smash don't see it as lacking on their part, because as has been said, a jump smash is merely one of many strokes.

    And finally, before I'm off for the weekend, I hope the few of you who've understood my POV as a female player will continue to work with your XD partners or sisters and other female members who wish to improve their game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..a sound input..(read the other earlier post as well)..
    I, too, would think it has more to do with the women's physiological make up.
    Can they be trained to perform jump smashes like their male counterparts?..Or can training alone be enough for the female players to perform jump smashes like their male counterparts?..
    i think a look at volleyball would answer this question. in volleyball, jump technique is an ESSENTIAL part of the sport (whereas, in badminton, jump smash is just one of the shots). I'm sure coaches for womens' volleyball teams are constantly trying to raise the vertical jump height of their hitters. However, in the end, we still notice that women are not able to attack down at the same height that men can (which is why women still play with a lowered net). I'm sure that ppl do studies to decide what is an appropriate net height for the women's game...and if they find that the game becomes too much attack (due to a significant increase in the average of women's jump height), then they would move the net up. But, this hasn't happened. So, I think I would answer no to both your questions.

    in regards to wombads comment about what if jump smash became a desirable part of the womens' game, and coaches started focusing on that, i dont' think it would make that big a difference. Nor in my opinion would it ever become that desirable in a woman's game (unless they lowered the net). A woman's jump smash...regardless of the training techniques, would not be as effective in a womens' game compared ot a man's jump smash in a men's game (considering that men dont' defend as well too). The volleyball gives a good example of this. In volleyball, jumping IS being focused on in the womens' game and it IS a desirable part of the game, but you still dont' see an equality with the men in terms of the jumping. I think this answers your point.

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    William 88 did you also take note that woman on average are shorter then men?!?

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    Default Pretty much undeniable..

    Quote Originally Posted by William86_98 View Post
    i think a look at volleyball would answer this question. in volleyball, jump technique is an ESSENTIAL part of the sport (whereas, in badminton, jump smash is just one of the shots). I'm sure coaches for womens' volleyball teams are constantly trying to raise the vertical jump height of their hitters. However, in the end, we still notice that women are not able to attack down at the same height that men can (which is why women still play with a lowered net). I'm sure that ppl do studies to decide what is an appropriate net height for the women's game...and if they find that the game becomes too much attack (due to a significant increase in the average of women's jump height), then they would move the net up. But, this hasn't happened. So, I think I would answer no to both your questions.

    in regards to wombads comment about what if jump smash became a desirable part of the womens' game, and coaches started focusing on that, i dont' think it would make that big a difference. Nor in my opinion would it ever become that desirable in a woman's game (unless they lowered the net). A woman's jump smash...regardless of the training techniques, would not be as effective in a womens' game compared ot a man's jump smash in a men's game (considering that men dont' defend as well too). The volleyball gives a good example of this. In volleyball, jumping IS being focused on in the womens' game and it IS a desirable part of the game, but you still dont' see an equality with the men in terms of the jumping. I think this answers your point.
    ..add to that basketball or any athletic sports which involve jumping..

    This link is somewhat similar to what's been discussed:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...1/200ofapa.asp
    And i quote "There are physical differences between men and women that are fairly undeniable. Men are taller, weigh more, and are stronger and faster than women. And this includes even women at the peak of physical condition."

    And a few threads which have discussions similar, if not the same, to this thread:

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=50006
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=22530
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ead.php?t=6226
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=10707
    Last edited by ctjcad; 06-12-2009 at 02:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chewablemorphin View Post
    William 88 did you also take note that woman on average are shorter then men?!?
    I didnt' account for this specifically, but i think it would only add to my point that the jump smash would not be as efficient for the women's game as it is for the men. A lower height means an even lower absolute jump height...meaning even less angle.

    In the case of volleyball...the net is lower by 18cm, so perhaps that is to account for the average height difference between men and women. But even if so, women's volleyball is still a lot more "defensive" than the men's version. Whereas even high school male players are able to hit the attack line on a spike, that rarely happens in the women's game.
    Last edited by William86_98; 06-12-2009 at 07:03 PM.

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