New Leica System-S2

Discussion in 'Badminton Photography' started by taneepak, May 24, 2009.

  1. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Leica has introduced a new digital camera system that is about the same size of a conventional full-frame 35mm DSLR but boasting the performance of medium- format cameras. It comes with a giant of a sensor of 30mm x 40mm and a 37.5 megapixels. It also comes initially with very impressive lenses. Needless to say, the system will cost an arm and a leg. Needless, also, to say, this system will put all the top Nikon and Canon full-frame DSLRs in the shade.
    At least this new system concept is a product of thinking outside the box instead of copying on an old and tried system based on the 35mm concept, first invented by Leica, that the rest of the world is doing.
     
  2. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    at US$20,000 for the body and probably $3,000+ for the smaller lenses, i cannot imagine it to be of much mass appeal.

    while it is technically a better camera than the top Nikon/Canon/etc, i expect to see way way more Nikon/Canon being sold than this S2.
     
  3. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    A first for the new S lenses is that they have built-in leaf shutters also, in addition to being able to be used with the camera's focal plane shutter, for very fast flash photography. This is professional category, first used by Hasselblad except that Hasselblad got stuck with two body versions as well as two lens families.
    That is why only modest speed lenses (f2.5), the Summarit family of lenses, are being introduced, to cut down weight and cost.
    I believe the S2 body might be smaller than the top Nikon or Canon full-frame body. It may also be lighter at 1.5kg. Combined with the light weight Summarit family of lenses, its medium format capabilities with the size of a 35mm system, it could rock the professional level 35mm and medium format industry.
    The S2 body looks very tempting and I can easily adapt it to use with my many Hasselblad lenses as well as medium format Nikkor and Mamiya lenses with customised adapter, but that means it will work on manual mode only.
    The S2 is not for the average photographer. It is more suited for studios, advertising, fashion, etc and areas where Hasselblads used to rule.
     
  4. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I am guessing that Leica is planning a cunning strategy in their lens lineup for the new S2 system. All their initial new lenses are Summirit lenses with leaf shutters in the lens which can also be locked up for use by the body's focal plane shutter. Leaf shutters are a must for studio professionals and this is the market it is targeting initially. Summirit lenses are slow; so are the Elmars. These relatively slower lenses will go a long way to reduce the weight of the lenses, as leaf shutter lenses are as a rule much heavier than focal plane lenses. Once the S2 has established itself Leica will then introduce their famous Summicron and their super fast Summilux lens lines, which will not have leaf shutters in the lens and will be strictly all focal plane only, thus reducing the weight. But such super lenses like the Summicron and Summilux are really not needed in studios where available light photography is not practised. Perhaps the more wealthy pros who now use the top Nikon and Canon models will be attracted by the Summicrons and the Summiluxes later to switch.
     
  5. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I believe that Leica may be the only top grade camera brand to make their own tripod. This is understandable as the tripod, that is a really good tripod, is the most important photographic accessory. No decent Leica owner will want to go without a tripod, because a tripod can take pictures at any shutter speed without loss of sharpness. It can aslo enhance a photographer's creativity that today's DSLR and P&S automation seems to destroy it.
     
  6. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    since this is under badminton photography thread, i just wonder is this S2 going to be good in photographing badminton? is the AF top notch?
    Leica... er.. as we call it coca-cola label. :D the logo looks like coca-cola.
    Leica is the pioneer in 35mm format. no doubt that Leica body and lenses are very very good. Leica lenses on par with Carl Zeiss. Leica is for photography ethusiast. for pro in lanscaping, potrait, advertising, still and etc. but it is not that good for sports and wildlife in term of cost. sports and wildlife photographers are banging around the lenses and bodies. under rain and shine. under harsh conditons will wear and tear in fast mode. damages are norm. will any newspaper or magazine company invest in Leica? is Cheung going to carry two Leica's body+lense on the shoulder and let them scratch each other?
    thus, Leica will still has their own market. Canon and Nikon too, have their own market.
    as for tripod, think about manufacturing cost and stock-keeping cost. Leica is just like rolls-royce. owner will be more proud if everything is Leica labelled. why i need Canon or Nikon brand tripod? Manfrotto or Benbo will be fine. ;)
    hm.... Canon or Nikon should produce monopod instead of tripod :D:p
     
  7. red00ecstrat

    red00ecstrat Regular Member

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    Then I guess old Robert Capa must has ruinned his chance of taking some great shots. He had also ruinned his Leica, his career and his own life!
     

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  8. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    hey, what's that sound?

    that's Robert Capa and Henri Cartier Bresson rolling in their graves in unison! :D
     
  9. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I never realize that the Leica brand looks like Coca Cola's. I only wish they sell their camera system at Coca Coal prices. Leica has one tripod that sells for more than 500 Euro.
    What is more of a shocker with the introduction of the S-2 system is that it might position the 35mm format into a dead zone, sandwiched between the Four Thirds with their customized lenses and accessories and the medium format class belonging to the S-2s, Hasselblads, Mamiyas, and Bronicas. Currently 35mm is a 'chap suey' mix of full-frame (top models) and many models with different cropping factors above Four Thirds with their own respective lenses and accessories, etc. The current 35mm format may be doomed simply because it is bigger than the Leica S-2 but without the S-2's medium format lens and sensor performance. It is common sense that when size goes up and performance goes down relative to the S-2, then the heart of the system-its very basic concept-cannot be viable in the long term.
    Just like in the early Leica-led 35mm days when Nikon and Canon copied everything Leica, they are now forced to re-think seriously whether they abandon the 35mm format or join the trend set by the S-2. They are now between the devil and the deep blue sea.
     
  10. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    how come one never realize?
     

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  11. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    lmao. that's a good one. :D
     
  12. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    A little history about Leica: the company was known as Leitz Camera. If you contract the two words it reads Leica, Lei for Leitz and ca for camera. Earlier Leicas have the words Leica and Ernest Leitz, and later still the logo with the word Leitz in a red circle. That red circle with the word Leitz inside has disappeared and in its place is the word Leica. Therefore if your Leica cameras have the words Ernest Leitz and Leica, with or without the red cricle enclosing the word "Leitz" then they are more sought after. The new logo with 'Leica' in a red circle has less historic value.
    In other words the word 'Leitz' plus 'Leica" is more prized than only 'leica'.
    The reason is that Leitz has now split into three independent companies, the one holding the 'Leitz' license is the German company Leica Microsystems, still based in Leitz's place of birth, Wetzlar, Germany. This company retains the traditional Leitz strength in microscopes and imaging equipment for educational, medical, scientific, surgical, forensic, industrial applications. The second Leica company is Leica Geosystems AG, a company based in Switzerland. The company that inherits Leitz's camera systems is Leica Camera AG, based in Solms, Germany. The separation is expected as the three companies have different products and markets.
     
  13. NanoBatien

    NanoBatien Regular Member

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    Taneepak do you really think that leica S2 will be the standard? It seems more like a last desperate throw of the dice for an increasingly niche camera maker being left behind by the speed of evolution of digital (each model lasts for less time, so more have to be sold to recoup design costs) and the huge R&D costs of sensor design than some shining perfectly size format to lead the world into a golden future... Every size of sensor is a tradeoff between cost and image quality, there is no perfect size.

    You seem to have an tripod fetish. It is simply a stable object to hold a camera, a leica tripod wont make your pictures much better than with a decent high grade tripod. Personally I think as ISOs go up and VR improves, tripods will be a thing of the past. Tripods are very very clunky to cart around. I fail to see how carrying a 5kg uber-tripod will improve someones creativity, but it will certainly improve their back/arm muscles (for badminton :p).
     
  14. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I can understand why newcomers to photography with its new found digital age are disdainful of the tripod. The tripod is in my opinion, after the camera and the lens, the photographer's most important accessory. Next will be the gray card and a good undersatnding of the Zone System.
    You can actually test out the tripod's role in sharp pictures. Take a picture handheld at say 1/120 sec with image stabilizer with a standard lens using a set distance and shutter speed. Next do the same with a stable tripod. Now enlarge the two pictures 40 times. You will be surprised at the difference. At even lower shutter speeds like 1 sec to 5 sec shutter speed the difference will be even more staggering.
     
  15. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Sorry, the above is the corrected version.
     
  16. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    It is not as simple as saying there is no perfect sensor size. There are of course very small sensor sizes like those used in handphones and P&S cameras, slightly larger ones in the Four Thirds and others with crop factors of anything from 2 to close to 35 mm full-frame. But each size group is always related to the camera's dimensions and size and weight of the lenses.
    Say you have 4 size categories of cameras with their sensors and lenses, A, B. C, and D in increasing sizes. These classes of sensors and dimensions in camera body and lens should never cross. If they do, then that class is headng for demise. Say if a class D sensor can cross over to a class C body and lens, then all the equipment that have been made for class D becomes outdated.
    Just think if you can use medium format sensors but lenses that are no bigger than 35mm lenses on bodies that are smaller than 35mm cameras.
    I am not saying Leica will rule in the new format. Remember Leica invented the 35mm format more than 80 years ago, yet they are not even anywhere near its leaders now. It is not the inventor but the concept that establishes a standard. It may turn out that at the end of the day, Nikon or Canon or even a newcomer will lead this new medium format class.
    The key to the new Leica S-2 idea may be due to a rethink about the limitatons of the sensor to lens (in film days it was film plane to lens) distance that has always posed physical constraints. That is why we see medium format cameras are much larger than 35mm cameras because of their greater lens to sensor(film) distance. To use a 30mmx45mm sensor is like using a film of 30mmx45mm in a 35mm size camera body and using lenses similar to 35mm class lenses, and frankly this looks impossible. Maybe its the new lenses that have a radically new design.
     
  17. red00ecstrat

    red00ecstrat Regular Member

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    taneepak, no one had ever said tripods were rubbish here! the point that we are arguing with you is in fact how to use it to deal with the right situation!
    as for the gray card thing. please forgive my ignorance. personally, i don't really know the importance of applying zone system to digital photography. i would have to agree with you if we are talking about black and white photography. coz we all know we would be able to control grey tones of an image by over exposing a frame then reducing the developing time or vice versa. but in digital photography. how can we apply the same thing to achieve the goal?
     
  18. BadFever

    BadFever Regular Member

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    This so-called new system will probably turn Leica share price to half or less. Give opportunity for Nikon/Canon to 'gooble' up Leica at a very discounted price. Worse still, maybe Sony Leica brand will come out soon. :p:D
     
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I need the fairy godmother of Leica to get the equipment first. Somehow, I don't think that is going to happen...:(
     
  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Back to the bolded part, yes, it looks very tempting. We now see claims that increasing the number of pixels on the APS-C doesn't reduce noise at 1600 indicating that current technology seems to have reached a limit.

    Of course the full frame 35mm sensor is better in this respect.

    An even larger sensor would be even more tempting as the lowlight gathering capabilities would be much better. ISO 25600 photography maybe done at ease.

    A new standard? Well, not impossible. History tells us standards come and go with new ones replacing them. The history of video tells us the path may be fraught with difficulties.
     

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