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  1. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielwong View Post
    agreed....as KKK/TBH lost to this 3 pairs currently
    and some Japanese ninjas also
    with their Arc Z , these Ninjas are lethal to anyone

  2. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by staiger View Post
    I would be amazed if you could find any evidence to backup your barbaric statement
    Well, hardly barbaric IMHO, as the results speak for themselves:
    CHN Open 2006 Final -- 2-0 (21-16, 21-16; I was there watching the match)
    HK SS 2007 SF -- 2-0 (21-15, 21-12; see above)
    Beijing Olympics 2008 Final -- 2-1 (the INA pair lost the first set easily 11-21, but they rebounded strongly in the second and third-sets 21-11, 21-16 respectively to claim the coveted Beijing Olympic title).

    Then, Fu and Cai were split up momentarily and paired with Shen and Xu respectively:
    Denmark SS 2008 Final -- 2-0 (21-18, 21-19) against Fu/Shen
    French SS 2008 Final -- 2-0 (21-15, 21-12) against Cai/Xu

    I am not trying to discredit Fu/Cai's achievements. In fact, I will see them as Kido/Hendra's strongest threat. They managed to win their second AE and World Championships this year. However, if you look at the matches involving these 2 pairs from 2006-2008, it's very clear that Fu/Cai particularly dislike playing against Kido/Hendra

    Their body languange showed it, particularly in the HK SS 2007 SF and the last 2-sets of the Beijing Olympics 2008 Final. They simply could not respond to Kido/Hendra's style, which led to their downfall quite easily in those matches. Hendra simply outplayed Cai at the net, while Fu wasn't allowed to reign in freely with his attacks. I believe ye333 will agree with this assessment too.

    I will be intrigued to see who will be the winner in a match involving these 2 pairs right now.

  3. #105
    Regular Member AlanY's Avatar
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    Statistically, MK/HS is the best pair follow by JJS/LYD, FHF/CY & KKK/TBH. With the total of 34 Super Series played so far since the first tournament in 2007 their results are as follow:

    MK/HS 8 titles
    JJS/LYD 7 titles
    FHF/CY 6 titles, and
    KKK/TBH 6 titles.

    Within the same period there are 3 majors (2 WC and the 2008 OG), and MK/HS got 2 of them.

    Therefore, I consider them as the best MD pair for the last 2-3 years.

    With FHF/CY the current world champion, I say JJS/LYD and KKK/TBH are equal third.
    Last edited by AlanY; 11-04-2009 at 08:52 AM.

  4. #106
    Regular Member george@chongwei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by staiger View Post
    with their Arc Z , these Ninjas are lethal to anyone
    but koo/tan didn't use their arc z during tournaments

  5. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    Well, hardly barbaric IMHO, as the results speak for themselves:
    CHN Open 2006 Final -- 2-0 (21-16, 21-16; I was there watching the match)
    HK SS 2007 SF -- 2-0 (21-15, 21-12; see above)
    Beijing Olympics 2008 Final -- 2-1 (the INA pair lost the first set easily 11-21, but they rebounded strongly in the second and third-sets 21-11, 21-16 respectively to claim the coveted Beijing Olympic title).

    Then, Fu and Cai were split up momentarily and paired with Shen and Xu respectively:
    Denmark SS 2008 Final -- 2-0 (21-18, 21-19) against Fu/Shen
    French SS 2008 Final -- 2-0 (21-15, 21-12) against Cai/Xu

    I am not trying to discredit Fu/Cai's achievements. In fact, I will see them as Kido/Hendra's strongest threat. They managed to win their second AE and World Championships this year. However, if you look at the matches involving these 2 pairs from 2006-2008, it's very clear that Fu/Cai particularly dislike playing against Kido/Hendra

    Their body languange showed it, particularly in the HK SS 2007 SF and the last 2-sets of the Beijing Olympics 2008 Final. They simply could not respond to Kido/Hendra's style, which led to their downfall quite easily in those matches. Hendra simply outplayed Cai at the net, while Fu wasn't allowed to reign in freely with his attacks. I believe ye333 will agree with this assessment too.

    I will be intrigued to see who will be the winner in a match involving these 2 pairs right now.
    No, he said Kido /Hendra can beat Fu/Cai 80% of the time indefinite of the time . In recent time and in future beyond, I cant see Kido/Hendra can beat Fu/cai in finals . They , the chinese pair have improved so much especially Fu defensive play and his speed around the court which also improved greatly.

    I agree that they were abit lost in the Olympics final , but now (2009) they have gathered themselve and results shown it

  6. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by staiger View Post
    No, he said Kido /Hendra can beat Fu/Cai 80% of the time indefinite of the time . In recent time and in future beyond, I cant see Kido/Hendra can beat Fu/cai in finals . They , the chinese pair have improved so much especially Fu defensive play and his speed around the court which also improved greatly.

    I agree that they were abit lost in the Olympics final , but now (2009) they have gathered themselve and results shown it
    No doubt, the CHN pair has improved this year, thanks to Zhang Jun. But, Fu/Cai also lost to Koo/Tan in the Swiss SS and nearly lost to Fairuz/Zakry in the WC09 SF (a pair that Kido/Hendra has no problem beating). It will be interesting to see how the new-look Fu/Cai will fare against Kido/Hendra.

    Kido might lose a little bit of sharpness in terms of smashes due to his troublesome knee, but, Hendra is also becoming more all-rounded right now. IMHO, I still don't think that Cai Yun can match him at net-play, esp since Cai is getting older now As for Fu, the INA pair is adept at making him play in uncomfortable positions (such as in front of the net). As long as the CHN pair is prevented from implementing their fast-pace game-plan (which troubles most MD pairs), they can be beaten

  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    No doubt, the CHN pair has improved this year, thanks to Zhang Jun. But, Fu/Cai also lost to Koo/Tan in the Swiss SS and nearly lost to Fairuz/Zakry in the WC09 SF (a pair that Kido/Hendra has no problem beating). It will be interesting to see how the new-look Fu/Cai will fare against Kido/Hendra.

    Kido might lose a little bit of sharpness in terms of smashes due to his troublesome knee, but, Hendra is also becoming more all-rounded right now. IMHO, I still don't think that Cai Yun can match him at net-play, esp since Cai is getting older now As for Fu, the INA pair is adept at making him play in uncomfortable positions (such as in front of the net). As long as the CHN pair is prevented from implementing their fast-pace game-plan (which troubles most MD pairs), they can be beaten
    Yeah, I have to admit that Fu/Cai surprise me this year. I was expecting their form to dip as both of them getting older and making it harder to sustain the full pressure, fast pace style. The result speaks otherwise though.

    I disagree with your strongest threat comment though. Kido/Hendra has shown they can handle Fu/Cai in the past so it can be done. The more immediate need is to show that they can handle the KOR pair of LYD/JJS (at the very least, for the sake of sanity in BC)

  8. #110
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    You forgot Denmark SS 2008 Semifinal, where as far as I remember, MK/HS beat Cai/Xu 2:1.

    Anyway, if I remember correctly, MK/HS hasn't lost to any Chinese pair after July 2007, be it the Ace pair CY/FHF, the 2nd fiddle GZD/XZB and GZD/XC, the young star ChaiBiao/LiuXiaolong, or the scratch pairs Cai/Xu, Shen/Fu. Let's see how long they can extend this streak.

    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    Well, hardly barbaric IMHO, as the results speak for themselves:
    CHN Open 2006 Final -- 2-0 (21-16, 21-16; I was there watching the match)
    HK SS 2007 SF -- 2-0 (21-15, 21-12; see above)
    Beijing Olympics 2008 Final -- 2-1 (the INA pair lost the first set easily 11-21, but they rebounded strongly in the second and third-sets 21-11, 21-16 respectively to claim the coveted Beijing Olympic title).

    Then, Fu and Cai were split up momentarily and paired with Shen and Xu respectively:
    Denmark SS 2008 Final -- 2-0 (21-18, 21-19) against Fu/Shen
    French SS 2008 Final -- 2-0 (21-15, 21-12) against Cai/Xu

    I am not trying to discredit Fu/Cai's achievements. In fact, I will see them as Kido/Hendra's strongest threat. They managed to win their second AE and World Championships this year. However, if you look at the matches involving these 2 pairs from 2006-2008, it's very clear that Fu/Cai particularly dislike playing against Kido/Hendra

    Their body languange showed it, particularly in the HK SS 2007 SF and the last 2-sets of the Beijing Olympics 2008 Final. They simply could not respond to Kido/Hendra's style, which led to their downfall quite easily in those matches. Hendra simply outplayed Cai at the net, while Fu wasn't allowed to reign in freely with his attacks. I believe ye333 will agree with this assessment too.

    I will be intrigued to see who will be the winner in a match involving these 2 pairs right now.

  9. #111
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    The improvement on Fu's part is offset by CaiYun going downhill. Overall I would not say Cai/Fu as a pair is getting any stronger. Their peak performance should be 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by badadum View Post
    Yeah, I have to admit that Fu/Cai surprise me this year. I was expecting their form to dip as both of them getting older and making it harder to sustain the full pressure, fast pace style. The result speaks otherwise though.

    I disagree with your strongest threat comment though. Kido/Hendra has shown they can handle Fu/Cai in the past so it can be done. The more immediate need is to show that they can handle the KOR pair of LYD/JJS (at the very least, for the sake of sanity in BC)

  10. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    The improvement on Fu's part is offset by CaiYun going downhill. Overall I would not say Cai/Fu as a pair is getting any stronger. Their peak performance should be 2006.
    Despite this, they won the AE and WC 2009

    And yet, the supposedly DOMINATING pair failed to win the WC 2009.

  11. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    You forgot Denmark SS 2008 Semifinal, where as far as I remember, MK/HS beat Cai/Xu 2:1.

    Anyway, if I remember correctly, MK/HS hasn't lost to any Chinese pair after July 2007, be it the Ace pair CY/FHF, the 2nd fiddle GZD/XZB and GZD/XC, the young star ChaiBiao/LiuXiaolong, or the scratch pairs Cai/Xu, Shen/Fu. Let's see how long they can extend this streak.
    Thanks for pointing that out. Yup, I forgot about that bit. Indeed, they have yet to lose to ANY CHN pair since July 2007, whereas, the DOMINATING Jung/Lee lost to CHN pairs 3 times already this year

  12. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. Yup, I forgot about that bit. Indeed, they have yet to lose to ANY CHN pair since July 2007, whereas, the DOMINATING Jung/Lee lost to CHN pairs 3 times already this year
    wait wait...isn't that mean the Chinese MD are now dominating LYD/JJS?? Just like the Danes did earlier???

  13. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    You forgot Denmark SS 2008 Semifinal, where as far as I remember, MK/HS beat Cai/Xu 2:1.

    Anyway, if I remember correctly, MK/HS hasn't lost to any Chinese pair after July 2007, be it the Ace pair CY/FHF, the 2nd fiddle GZD/XZB and GZD/XC, the young star ChaiBiao/LiuXiaolong, or the scratch pairs Cai/Xu, Shen/Fu. Let's see how long they can extend this streak.
    Cai/Fu beat HS/AHSAN in SC 2009.

    When Cai and Fu were splitted, their respective pair's performance were considered as Cai/Fu's performance. But when MK and HS were splitted, you said their defeat should not be counted in. Why?

  14. #116
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    badMania's theory on certain pairs not being comfortable with playing styles of certain other pairs is not new.

    Even the top pairs of the 1980s had preferences over playing against certain playing styles. For example, Chinese coaches Li Yongbo/Tian Bingyi hated meeting top Indonesian opposition, and very much prefer playing Malaysian or Korean opposition. The Malaysian top pairs, in turn, much preferred playing Indonesian or Chinese styles, but not Korean.

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by abedeng View Post
    badMania's theory on certain pairs not being comfortable with playing styles of certain other pairs is not new.

    Even the top pairs of the 1980s had preferences over playing against certain playing styles. For example, Chinese coaches Li Yongbo/Tian Bingyi hated meeting top Indonesian opposition, and very much prefer playing Malaysian or Korean opposition. The Malaysian top pairs, in turn, much preferred playing Indonesian or Chinese styles, but not Korean.
    agree!!! i think it's still the same nowadays

  16. #118
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    Thanks guys for your interesting discussions on the subject.

    As I mentioned many times, you can have your own measure. So, please don't forget to clearly specify your measuring method when you declare your strongest team.

    Keep going!

    Enjoy~
    Last edited by narnia; 11-06-2009 at 12:31 AM.

  17. #119
    Regular Member huangkwokhau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by narnia View Post
    Thanks guys for your interesting discussions on the subject.

    As I mentioned many times, you can have your own measure. So, please don't forget to clearly specify your measuring method when you declare your strongest team.

    Keep going!

    Enjoy~
    Your Method is NOT a method...not objective one...

    ENJOY!!

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